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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#561 - 2014-07-30 15:26:04 UTC
The more I hear it the more I like the idea of just changing the bandwidth of Heavys to 20mb and lowering the bandwidth of ishtars to 100 as well as the Navy Vexor. This would be a slight buff also to Myrms as they would not be able to field a full flight of heavy drones.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#562 - 2014-07-30 15:26:32 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
Actually, keep the Ishtar exactly how it is.

WTB 800DPS out to 50km Vagabond
with the same tank and speed pls

rise pls


WTB 800 dps at 60km Eagle.

If that ever existed, it would have been nerfed over downtime. Even with less mobility lmao
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#563 - 2014-07-30 15:27:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Skia Aumer wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:
Its good at ganking.
It is the cheapest ship in the game that does around 1k dps combined with 2 heavy neuts, and its speed makes it a perfect capital/supercapital ganking ship.

The typhoon does better (1170 dps with 2 neuts 1358 with 1 neut

When it comes to super ganks, missile platform is not the best choice, because of smartbombs.



Get at zero, missile exist only during the tick of the launching, smartbombs only kill missiles on the tick after they launched. Keep at zero and the smartbombs will not kill the missiles (tested it several times, altough on normal carriers, but mechanic should be the same. It is the same thing as pointing interceptors, need a lot of luck for the smartbomb to kill anything on that scenario). You will miss the first shots while you approach but hardy something so important to make the tempest the best choice. And you would need several smartbombs to kill torpedos (a single large one is not enough)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#564 - 2014-07-30 15:42:56 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
CCP Rise wrote:

PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?


Make a extra thread about the Tempest, it does deserve one.

Do not change the tempest by cutting off a med, the fleet phoon is already miles better as it as armor artillery platform. 4 meds and 7 lows is not a good idea, since there are so many hulls with that slot layout that do close range, med range and long range just far better then the tempest, it needs a rethinking of the bonuses and overall more focus to a role, like Pattern or myself did point out last year during the tempest rebalancing, including fully fleshed out solutions like falloff based nano med range AC BS or very flexible armor artillery platform that utilizes a higher damage bonus than the Maelstrom to compensate the lack of damage mods and extra utility as a selling point beyond alpha for standard armor fleets, making it a very well rounding fleet BS and even useful in normal sniper fleets without relaying on the max alpha theme. You can even do both, making the T1 version a nano AC BS and the fleet version a armor based artillery platform.

Pattern: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2961895#post2961895

Quote:
Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+8% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+10% bonus to Large Projectile Falloff

Slot layout: 7H, 6M, 6L; 6 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 17000 PWG, 650 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7300 / 7400 / 6400
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400(+87.5) / 1154s / 4.68
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 120 / .104 / 101000000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 67.5km(+5k) / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Ladar Sensor Strength(+1)
Signature radius: 360(+20)



My suggestion: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3025373#post3025373

Quote:
Tempest(armor tanked fleet BS)
Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+7,5% bonus to Large Projectile damage


Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 2 launchers
Fittings: 17700 PWG(+2200), 550 CPU
Defence (shields / armor / hull) : 6500 / 7000 / 6500
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5800(+487.5) / 1154s / 4.68
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 120 / .12 / 101000000(-2300000) / 16.81s(-.37s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 50(-25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km(+10) / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 21 Ladar Sensor Strength(+2)
Signature radius: 340


PS.: BS are not fine since the warp speed changes they ended up being bricks again that are to slow to roam and for usage in small gangs, consider increasing her warp speed to 2.5 AU/s to make it less painful and adjust BCs and Cruisers 0.5 AU/s upwards as well, to even out the field a bit between frigs and super slow BS.

Edit2: Nestor is also still in a bad shape and needs further changes, make a thread for it as well and this time at least consider the input of people that actually use them.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#565 - 2014-07-30 15:44:14 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
The more I hear it the more I like the idea of just changing the bandwidth of Heavys to 20mb and lowering the bandwidth of ishtars to 100 as well as the Navy Vexor. This would be a slight buff also to Myrms as they would not be able to field a full flight of heavy drones.


It's not just the myrmidon that would benefit if such a change happens.

Vexor/prophecy would be able to field 3 heavies, a medium and a light
Vexor navy would be able to field 5 heavies (if it was also reduced to 100 bandwidth)
Proteus would be able to field 5 heavies in its drone configuration
Myrmidon would be able to field 5 heavies

It is a buff to the potential damage of the vexor, prophecy, proteus and myrmidon ( though suffers from no heavy drone speed or tracking bonuses) and a nerf to the vexor navy (if used as a sentry boat, but no nerf is used as a heavy droneboat), and the Ishtar (as it would lose 20% of its sentry damage, but lose none of its damage if using heavy drones).

Its a tactical nerf to the sentry setup on cruisers, but keeps its exact potential when using heavy drones. It is also a buff to some drone ships and basic drone fitting functionality..

Yaay!!!!
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#566 - 2014-07-30 15:50:43 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
The more I hear it the more I like the idea of just changing the bandwidth of Heavys to 20mb and lowering the bandwidth of ishtars to 100 as well as the Navy Vexor. This would be a slight buff also to Myrms as they would not be able to field a full flight of heavy drones.

New and improved Ishtar fleet! Now with 20% more Ishtars!

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#567 - 2014-07-30 15:51:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Get at zero, missile exist only during the tick of the launching, smartbombs only kill missiles on the tick after they launched. Keep at zero and the smartbombs will not kill the missiles (tested it several times, altough on normal carriers, but mechanic should be the same. It is the same thing as pointing interceptors, need a lot of luck for the smartbomb to kill anything on that scenario). You will miss the first shots while you approach but hardy something so important to make the tempest the best choice. And you would need several smartbombs to kill torpedos (a single large one is not enough)

Fair point, except that 1 SB activation is enough to destroy a torpedo (and more than enough if we talk about faction and officer SBs often found on supers).
Yet, Tempest is a viable choice for that purpose too.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#568 - 2014-07-30 15:51:48 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
The more I hear it the more I like the idea of just changing the bandwidth of Heavys to 20mb and lowering the bandwidth of ishtars to 100 as well as the Navy Vexor. This would be a slight buff also to Myrms as they would not be able to field a full flight of heavy drones.


It's not just the myrmidon that would benefit if such a change happens.

Vexor/prophecy would be able to field 3 heavies, a medium and a light
Vexor navy would be able to field 5 heavies (if it was also reduced to 100 bandwidth)
Proteus would be able to field 5 heavies in its drone configuration
Myrmidon would be able to field 5 heavies

It is a buff to the potential damage of the vexor, prophecy, proteus and myrmidon ( though suffers from no heavy drone speed or tracking bonuses) and a nerf to the vexor navy (if used as a sentry boat, but no nerf is used as a heavy droneboat), and the Ishtar (as it would lose 20% of its sentry damage, but lose none of its damage if using heavy drones).

Its a tactical nerf to the sentry setup on cruisers, but keeps its exact potential when using heavy drones. It is also a buff to some drone ships and basic drone fitting functionality..


usually the simple answers are the best ...just reduce the ishtar damage bonus too sentries..

7.5% damage too heavies
5% damage too sentries

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#569 - 2014-07-30 15:54:15 UTC
Blueclaws wrote:



I think one of the things people seem to be forgetting is that Minmatar are not Gallente. You are right it will never do as much damage as a mega, nor should it. Minmatar has never necessarily been about doing the most DPS. If you want the most raw DPS go Gallente, if you want good range control and speed go Minmatar.

Granted these are all kind of moot points at the battleship level. Even at the lower ships sizes though Minmatar hulls didn't really out DPS close range blaster boats. Its all about range control or at least it should be in my opinion.


Yep i appreciate that and agree with you in the comparison between a mega and a pest.

what i was more pointing at was that an 8/4/7 slot doesnt put the tempest anywhere near a position i'd want to fly it more (in fact i think i'd fly it less).

however, an 8/4/7 7xgun tempest, maybe with a combat ship role has more to offer and still does not overshadow a mega in those particular raw stats.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#570 - 2014-07-30 15:57:49 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
The more I hear it the more I like the idea of just changing the bandwidth of Heavys to 20mb and lowering the bandwidth of ishtars to 100 as well as the Navy Vexor. This would be a slight buff also to Myrms as they would not be able to field a full flight of heavy drones.


It's not just the myrmidon that would benefit if such a change happens.

Vexor/prophecy would be able to field 3 heavies, a medium and a light
Vexor navy would be able to field 5 heavies (if it was also reduced to 100 bandwidth)
Proteus would be able to field 5 heavies in its drone configuration
Myrmidon would be able to field 5 heavies

It is a buff to the potential damage of the vexor, prophecy, proteus and myrmidon ( though suffers from no heavy drone speed or tracking bonuses) and a nerf to the vexor navy (if used as a sentry boat, but no nerf is used as a heavy droneboat), and the Ishtar (as it would lose 20% of its sentry damage, but lose none of its damage if using heavy drones).

Its a tactical nerf to the sentry setup on cruisers, but keeps its exact potential when using heavy drones. It is also a buff to some drone ships and basic drone fitting functionality..


It would put the DPS of Sentries on an Ishtar with 3x DDA
450 DPS on Warden II
550 DPS on Garde II
520 DPS on Curator II
480 DPS on Bouncer II
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#571 - 2014-07-30 16:01:14 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Blueclaws wrote:



I think one of the things people seem to be forgetting is that Minmatar are not Gallente. You are right it will never do as much damage as a mega, nor should it. Minmatar has never necessarily been about doing the most DPS. If you want the most raw DPS go Gallente, if you want good range control and speed go Minmatar.

Granted these are all kind of moot points at the battleship level. Even at the lower ships sizes though Minmatar hulls didn't really out DPS close range blaster boats. Its all about range control or at least it should be in my opinion.


Yep i appreciate that and agree with you in the comparison between a mega and a pest.

what i was more pointing at was that an 8/4/7 slot doesnt put the tempest anywhere near a position i'd want to fly it more (in fact i think i'd fly it less).

however, an 8/4/7 7xgun tempest, maybe with a combat ship role has more to offer and still does not overshadow a mega in those particular raw stats.


I agree with what you are saying and maybe something similar to what happened to the Hyperion as it is the attack BS for the Gallente why couldn't the Maelstrom be changed to that role with its active tank and allow the Tempest to fill the fleet role better?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#572 - 2014-07-30 16:04:44 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Blueclaws wrote:



I think one of the things people seem to be forgetting is that Minmatar are not Gallente. You are right it will never do as much damage as a mega, nor should it. Minmatar has never necessarily been about doing the most DPS. If you want the most raw DPS go Gallente, if you want good range control and speed go Minmatar.

Granted these are all kind of moot points at the battleship level. Even at the lower ships sizes though Minmatar hulls didn't really out DPS close range blaster boats. Its all about range control or at least it should be in my opinion.


Yep i appreciate that and agree with you in the comparison between a mega and a pest.

what i was more pointing at was that an 8/4/7 slot doesnt put the tempest anywhere near a position i'd want to fly it more (in fact i think i'd fly it less).

however, an 8/4/7 7xgun tempest, maybe with a combat ship role has more to offer and still does not overshadow a mega in those particular raw stats.



If you were comparing 2 battleships with all bonuses to damage then yes the observation would be valid.

But you are not!

You are comapring a battleship with 1 damage bonus and another bonus against another with 2 damage bonus. Yet the ones with 2 damage bonus do LESS damage than the one with 1 damage bonus on ALL ranges from zero to 20 km. At the point the tempest does more damage than the megatron the Apoc already outdamages both.

So the Tempest has no engagement envelope where it has advantage, therefore the observation between gallente and minmatar is invalid. Also if you want to defend the racial flavor, then make minmatar ships weight less than gallente. Something that was the flavor of minmatar but was simply stolen from them

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#573 - 2014-07-30 16:08:17 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
bombers are precisely why the big boys don't field battleships more often

And again, big boys of ye olde nullsec did use battleships because
a) there were no bombers,
b) they had no MJD which only distracts pilot attention and is useless otherwise,
c) the grass was greener.

FYI, bombers can wipe fleets of Tengus and even Mighty Ishtars.
Yet, those ships are still in use.


Those FC's sucked badly by the looks of it.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#574 - 2014-07-30 16:17:20 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:


I agree with what you are saying and maybe something similar to what happened to the Hyperion as it is the attack BS for the Gallente why couldn't the Maelstrom be changed to that role with its active tank and allow the Tempest to fill the fleet role better?


The hyp is a combat BS. The mega is the attack BS.

Kagura Nikon wrote:



If you were comparing 2 battleships with all bonuses to damage then yes the observation would be valid.

But you are not!

You are comapring a battleship with 1 damage bonus and another bonus against another with 2 damage bonus. Yet the ones with 2 damage bonus do LESS damage than the one with 1 damage bonus on ALL ranges from zero to 20 km. At the point the tempest does more damage than the megatron the Apoc already outdamages both.

So the Tempest has no engagement envelope where it has advantage, therefore the observation between gallente and minmatar is invalid. Also if you want to defend the racial flavor, then make minmatar ships weight less than gallente. Something that was the flavor of minmatar but was simply stolen from them


so u think a tempest should do more dps?
and 8/4/7 pest with 8 guns might do that, but thats just silly.

i have no expectation for a tempest to out damage a mega in raw dps. i infact consider that dps is the mega's defining attribute.

tempest still has top speed and selectable damage types.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#575 - 2014-07-30 16:20:28 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
As i said, can reduce tempest EHP a bit more. And remember tempest cannot fit the arties and prop mod/ mjd as easily as the maelstrom because of PG. And WHY in HELL you would use an injector in an arti tempest or arti maelstrom? To feed what? the sensor booster?

And EVE if the tempest take the arti role ( and if it took would not be outshinign the maelstrom , woould be a matter of preference almost), maelstrom is still the far stronger smaller scale brawler with a massive tank. There is a reason why I still see a lot of maelstroms being used on that role and never a single tempest.


No, to feed the MWD, which caps you out in under 2 mins by itself. Also, Void Bombs turning your tank off are probably also an issue.

Maelstrom also needs a grid mod to fit 8 artillery + MWD, that means you don't have that last low for a tracking enhancer. That means a 3-damagemod Mael against a 7/4 Tempest with 7.5% damage has very slightly more damage. The Tempest, of course, is 30% faster, has half the signature radius, two utility highs, can fit injector + sensor booster + tracking comp, has more EHP, and doesn't have a gigantic, easily exploitable resist hole. Yeah, I think I'm going to go with the Tempest every time.
Cyrek Ohaya
Blazing Sun Group
#576 - 2014-07-30 16:27:41 UTC
I would suggest a similar system like the gila and worm has but it would simply get repetitive.

My main concern is metagame that occupies the MWD, going full speed is so on demand it eclipses it conservative alternative, many players don't have the time to look up "silly" drawbacks for using them, what I'm getting at is that the sig bloom to a lot of players and FCs alike is a very underestimated drawback in the heat of pvp, not only you are presumably getting full damage from sentries as a cruiser, every excess of signature over the sentries base resolution is a significant boost to their tracking, this same tracking scales much more with the ishtars bonus to sentry tracking, it gives the illusion that gardes have this huge drawkback to tracking but in reality due to the metagame established by players, the MWD module is much more on demand for pvp. I would suggest you look up Afterburners to make them a more attractive choice in pvp.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#577 - 2014-07-30 16:46:59 UTC
about the tempest, pls dont change the slot layout, the current one is not the best but its unique and can work.
change the damage bonus, give it a 7.5% damage 5% rof, that way it can have a small niche as a arty platform and still be outdpsded by most of the other BS as a close range AC boat.
its kind of ridiculous that a double damage bonused BS have to do such a small amount of damage.
if someone bring the mighty AC falloff range into the discussion, large blaster outdps large AC out to 30km
if someone bring the mighty speed and BC feeling of the tempest, well that is gone after the warp speed changes and tbh even if we dont consider warps it's still pretty damn slow and sluggish, since its 5 years CCP keep nerfing minmatar ships speed and especially mass.

ps: the ishtar nerf is a joke
To mare
Advanced Technology
#578 - 2014-07-30 16:48:45 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

tempest still has top speed and selectable damage types.

you forgot CAPLESS WEAPONS!
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#579 - 2014-07-30 17:10:27 UTC
so how about those mass increases on amarr ships too reduce the effect of plating them ?? .. any chance of them happening here ???

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#580 - 2014-07-30 17:11:09 UTC
To mare wrote:

you forgot CAPLESS WEAPONS!


indeed

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs