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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#521 - 2014-07-30 12:07:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Harvey James wrote:
8-4-7 tempest .. stronger armour tank over phoon .. might at least position it in a better armour tanker option than phoon and ofc Maelstrom .. seems okay too me .... more mobility aswell..


Don't touch the Tempest please.

It is excellent as it already is imo for the unique niche it fills. Everybody I speak to loves the Tempest.

If you want to buff it then buffing it's speed / agility / lockspeed / lockdistance would be very nice though.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#522 - 2014-07-30 12:14:45 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
8-4-7 tempest .. stronger armour tank over phoon .. might at least position it in a better armour tanker option than phoon and ofc Maelstrom .. seems okay too me .... more mobility aswell..


Don't touch the Tempest please.

It is excellent as it already is.



It is HORRIBLE. THe sugested chagne is nto good. But the tempest is HORRIBLE and only someone that do not understand the game would think its good.



There is not a single role it can perform where it is a good option. It is not a good alpha ship (malestrom and tornado have that role), not a good brawler ( mega, hyperion, maelstrom, typhoon are utterly better). Not a good nos boats (geddon adn domi can field twice neuts with MORE dps and more tank). Not a good nimble ship (typhoon is way superior while fieldign more dps , more tank more range).

There is no freacking reason why someone that can fly all 4 races would select a tempest for anything other than trying to pretend to be a noob.


Repeat, there is not a single realistic role in game where the tempest is not completely utterly outdone by its peers.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#523 - 2014-07-30 12:15:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Komodo Askold
About battleships, I agree their MWD use could be tweaked a bit; it feels like they consume cap way too much when compared to smaller ships. For example, my Anathema can permarun its MWD, but my Dominix is dry after a few cycles, even though my related skills are very high and my Dominix has a cap recharger fitted (and in both cases the MWD is the only active module).

I also agree some battleships could use some tweaks too. The Abaddon for example suffers from serious cap issues, even though it's an Amarr gunship (aren't they supposed to be able to use lasers comfortably?), and perhaps could use a small increase in max speed. The Hyperion, I'm not much versed into it but seems to lack some cap too. And the Tempest... I don't really like the new proposed slot layout; I think swapping a highslot for a lowslot could perhaps help it more (or even high -> med!).

Marauders seem to be in a very good place right now, all of them are equally viable and are very powerful for high-end PVE (and also some PVP).

Black Ops could be tweaked too. In fact, there's a general consensus about the Sin not benefitining from drone bonuses as much as it would benefit from hybrid ones. Yes, it's a CreoDron ship, but even that can be changed. The thing is, should Black Ops be really able to pack a sudden, cloaky punch, or just being Covert Portal generators? I'm personally with the first one...

Finally, I'm also in favor on another T2 line of battleships based on the Abaddon, Maelstrom, Hyperion and Rokh. Some ideas are: smartbombing BS' with a role bonus that reduces smartbomb damage to fleet mates, or Nestor-style BS' with bonuses towards spider tanking (as oppposed to Marauders' self-support), or sub-cap mini-carriers (although those could use these models instead).
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#524 - 2014-07-30 12:17:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
8-4-7 tempest .. stronger armour tank over phoon .. might at least position it in a better armour tanker option than phoon and ofc Maelstrom .. seems okay too me .... more mobility aswell..


Don't touch the Tempest please.

It is excellent as it already is imo for the unique niche it fills. Everybody I speak to loves the Tempest.

If you want to buff it then buffing it's speed / agility / lockspeed / lockdistance would be very nice though.

There is not a single role it can perform where it is a good option.

You just don't have enough imagination. A Tornado for instance cannot fit a MJD, wheras a Tempest can fit a MWD and MJD. Tornado cannot fit two defensive heavy nuets either.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#525 - 2014-07-30 12:26:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
8-4-7 tempest .. stronger armour tank over phoon .. might at least position it in a better armour tanker option than phoon and ofc Maelstrom .. seems okay too me .... more mobility aswell..


Don't touch the Tempest please.

It is excellent as it already is imo for the unique niche it fills. Everybody I speak to loves the Tempest.

If you want to buff it then buffing it's speed / agility / lockspeed / lockdistance would be very nice though.

There is not a single role it can perform where it is a good option.

You just don't have enough imagination. A Tornado for instance cannot fit a MJD, wheras a Tempest can fit a MWD and MJD. Tornado cannot fit two defensive heavy nuets either.



realistic roles... show me a real combat scenario that is not a forced illusion.. and I will pointyou a nother battleship taht will outdo it. IF you are usign arties you will NOT field heavy neuts because the ship cannot fit arties heavy neuts and MJD without having a HORRIBLE fit that makes your whole proposition a failure. And if you say you fit small neuts on a tempest I will simply block you...


A battleship to be useful it msut be good on a realistic scenario when beign fielded by a group that knows what they are doing against opponents that know what they are doing. Just because it is the best ship to fit when you make aretarded fit hat is horrible, that does not make it good or useful.

BTW your killboard is comprised exclusively of losses, and all on frigate sized ships. There is no reason why someoen woudl take your word or opinion about a battleship being good.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
#526 - 2014-07-30 12:26:49 UTC
Make Sentry drone control range vary of controlling ship range. thus DCR of 100k - Ishtar moves 30k off, its down to 70k.

Create a delay from deploying/ abandoning Sentries - 10 seconds. Like changing ammo.

Fix their tracking, its way off from other BS weapons and is magnified by their static nature. Adding the lastest mods made it worse.

I am not sure this would make a great difference, but it would be a 1st step. It would impact cruisers fielding them most.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#527 - 2014-07-30 12:27:57 UTC
the insane fitting gap between ACs and arties causes stuff like this, I think. you give a ship fitting for arties and it has 99999999 infinite grid in AC mode, and you give a ship grid for ACs and it cannot artillery.

also optimal bonuses on minmatar are pretty bad.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#528 - 2014-07-30 12:31:31 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
the insane fitting gap between ACs and arties causes stuff like this, I think. you give a ship fitting for arties and it has 99999999 infinite grid in AC mode, and you give a ship grid for ACs and it cannot artillery.

also optimal bonuses on minmatar are pretty bad.



Make munin range bonus be a half bonus to range and half to falloff on a signle bonus. Now it can work with AC soemwhat. Also add a ROEL bonus of arti PG requiriments reduction by 20%. Done.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#529 - 2014-07-30 12:34:24 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
the insane fitting gap between ACs and arties causes stuff like this, I think. you give a ship fitting for arties and it has 99999999 infinite grid in AC mode, and you give a ship grid for ACs and it cannot artillery.

also optimal bonuses on minmatar are pretty bad.



Make munin range bonus be a half bonus to range and half to falloff on a signle bonus. Now it can work with AC soemwhat. Also add a ROEL bonus of arti PG requiriments reduction by 20%. Done.


I'd be more in favour of just a falloff bonus, or better, a generic optimal + falloff bonus for all half and half weapons like arties and blasters.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#530 - 2014-07-30 12:39:46 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
the insane fitting gap between ACs and arties causes stuff like this, I think. you give a ship fitting for arties and it has 99999999 infinite grid in AC mode, and you give a ship grid for ACs and it cannot artillery.

also optimal bonuses on minmatar are pretty bad.



Make munin range bonus be a half bonus to range and half to falloff on a signle bonus. Now it can work with AC soemwhat. Also add a ROEL bonus of arti PG requiriments reduction by 20%. Done.


I'd be more in favour of just a falloff bonus, or better, a generic optimal + falloff bonus for all half and half weapons like arties and blasters.



But that is what I said. A single bonus being 5% bonus to range AND falloff of projectiles. It snto a specialzied role ad the vaga bonus. But faloff helps a bit arties as well.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#531 - 2014-07-30 12:42:22 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
IF you are usign arties you will NOT field heavy neuts because the ship cannot fit arties heavy neuts and MJD without having a HORRIBLE fit that makes your whole proposition a failure. And if you say you fit small neuts on a tempest I will simply block you....

On that I would agree with you, it is difficult to fit the two heavy nuets with artillery in terms of PG. You can fit both but the tank suffers. An increase in PG wouldn't go amiss. And I also really liked the idea of increasing cap to keep the prop mods and nuets running for longer.

Also this is a throwaway alt with no skills if you hadn't already guessed.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#532 - 2014-07-30 12:43:24 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
the insane fitting gap between ACs and arties causes stuff like this, I think. you give a ship fitting for arties and it has 99999999 infinite grid in AC mode, and you give a ship grid for ACs and it cannot artillery.

also optimal bonuses on minmatar are pretty bad.



Make munin range bonus be a half bonus to range and half to falloff on a signle bonus. Now it can work with AC soemwhat. Also add a ROEL bonus of arti PG requiriments reduction by 20%. Done.


I'd be more in favour of just a falloff bonus, or better, a generic optimal + falloff bonus for all half and half weapons like arties and blasters.



But that is what I said. A single bonus being 5% bonus to range AND falloff of projectiles. It snto a specialzied role ad the vaga bonus. But faloff helps a bit arties as well.


5% is worse than 10%. if you're half optimal half falloff, a 10% per level bonus to both is no better than an all-optimal turret having 10% bonus.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#533 - 2014-07-30 12:45:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
IF you are usign arties you will NOT field heavy neuts because the ship cannot fit arties heavy neuts and MJD without having a HORRIBLE fit that makes your whole proposition a failure. And if you say you fit small neuts on a tempest I will simply block you....

On that I would agree with you, it is difficult to fit the two heavy nuets with artillery in terms of PG. You can fit both but the tank suffers. An increase in PG wouldn't go amiss. And I also really liked the idea of increasing cap to keep the prop mods and nuets running for longer.

Also this is a throwaway alt with no skills if you hadn't already guessed.



Just pointing that either you support your statements with logic, facts and math or you support your statements with the reliability that your character might provide. You cannot expect to be taken seriously in a balance discussion without using either of them. I simply cannot take your word that "with creativity it works"... with no fundation because there is no reason why I should trust in your pvp experience based ont he char you are posting with.

Nothing personal.


IF the tempest could fit all that easily at same time, then yes it would have a role.

Also if cap is increased in ALL battleships that would make tempest even weaker compared to others.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#534 - 2014-07-30 12:45:44 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
the insane fitting gap between ACs and arties causes stuff like this, I think. you give a ship fitting for arties and it has 99999999 infinite grid in AC mode, and you give a ship grid for ACs and it cannot artillery.

also optimal bonuses on minmatar are pretty bad.


Agreed, arties are way too fitting intensive. Even with a loki I have a tough time making a good arty setup without spending hundreds of mil on implants and faction mods.
Neckbeard Nolyfe
Zero Fun Allowed
#535 - 2014-07-30 12:47:30 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


It is HORRIBLE. THe sugested chagne is nto good. But the tempest is HORRIBLE and only someone that do not understand the game would think its good.



There is not a single role it can perform where it is a good option.

There is no freacking reason why someone that can fly all 4 races would select a tempest for anything other than trying to pretend to be a noob.


Repeat, there is not a single realistic role in game where the tempest is not completely utterly outdone by its peers.


Its good at ganking.
It is the cheapest ship in the game that does around 1k dps combined with 2 heavy neuts, and its speed makes it a perfect capital/supercapital ganking ship.

~lvl 60 paladin~

Neckbeard Nolyfe
Zero Fun Allowed
#536 - 2014-07-30 12:48:32 UTC
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


It is HORRIBLE. THe sugested chagne is nto good. But the tempest is HORRIBLE and only someone that do not understand the game would think its good.



There is not a single role it can perform where it is a good option.

There is no freacking reason why someone that can fly all 4 races would select a tempest for anything other than trying to pretend to be a noob.


Repeat, there is not a single realistic role in game where the tempest is not completely utterly outdone by its peers.


Its good at ganking.
It is the cheapest ship in the game that does around 1k dps combined with 2 heavy neuts, and its speed makes it a perfect battleship for ganking capitals/supercapitals.

~lvl 60 paladin~

Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#537 - 2014-07-30 12:50:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Kagura Nikon wrote:
IF the tempest could fit all that easily at same time, then yes it would have a role.

I'd agree with focusing it more towards being a ship able to use MJD + Prop Mod, Artillery and Heavy Neuts. Right now it needs a longer lock range and more generous PG definitely would not go amiss. Extra speed/agility and faster lock time would also be areas which should be looked at.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#538 - 2014-07-30 12:50:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


It is HORRIBLE. THe sugested chagne is nto good. But the tempest is HORRIBLE and only someone that do not understand the game would think its good.



There is not a single role it can perform where it is a good option.

There is no freacking reason why someone that can fly all 4 races would select a tempest for anything other than trying to pretend to be a noob.


Repeat, there is not a single realistic role in game where the tempest is not completely utterly outdone by its peers.


Its good at ganking.
It is the cheapest ship in the game that does around 1k dps combined with 2 heavy neuts, and its speed makes it a perfect capital/supercapital ganking ship.



The typhoon does better (1170 dps with 2 neuts 1358 with 1 neut... 100 % damage type focused on whatever resitance hoel you chose.. contrary to tempest 80%). Yes even with 5 torpedo launchers!
Dominix also does the same, jsut fit 2 neuts and blasters .... And you notice as that is not a real role is a very specific cannon fooder throw away single opportunity in game. Does not justify a ship, its is not a role. Its like saying trashers role is suicide ganking.

Even if that role was a worthy role.. typhoon and dominix do it better (yes More dps with 2 neuts).

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#539 - 2014-07-30 12:54:18 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
I would jsut accept hat sicen sentry drones are static and can take advantage on tracking issues because of that, they should have their tracking HALVED.


Hmm, i'll move to spouting this, way easier to do than anything else proposed.
Ktersida Nyn'Amanyn
Querschlaeger
#540 - 2014-07-30 13:25:59 UTC
10% damage per skill level instead of 5% damage and 5% RoF for the Muninn, so that they are useful for alpha fleets.
And move one low or maybe the utility hight to the meds.

More cap for the Eagle and Zealot would be fine and a little bit more base speed for the Zealot.