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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

First post First post First post
Author
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#541 - 2014-07-30 13:58:59 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Sister Bliss wrote:
The only BS fleets you tend to see now...

What you see now may have very little to do with bombers. For example, it's really annoying to make 10 to 20 jumps to get a fight while in a battleship. Why, if you can use Ishtar instead?
My point stands - bombers and battleships have a very long mutual history. And now we have MJD.


Not sure what big fleets you've been in from that backwater sov-you-don't-own-that-you-are-trying-to-rent-out, but bombers are precisely why the big boys don't field battleships more often. Why else would we be doing it all the time in lowsec?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#542 - 2014-07-30 14:00:32 UTC
Bombers are the reason battleships are bad place in alrge fleets. But do not explain why they are in a bad place in small gangs as well (bar a few exceptions).

They simply do not bring up enough to compensate their lack of mobility (Something important in small gangs).. on larger gangs, where mobility is not that relevant.. then bombers are the problem.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#543 - 2014-07-30 14:29:58 UTC
Did I post in this thread yet? Whatever, I'll post now either way.

+1 for the "remove sentry bonuses from the Ishtar entirely" camp. Now that Heavy Drones have been significantly buffed to be something other than completely terrible, there's no significant need for Sentries on it.

However, Sentries themselves need a significant and thorough inspection - they aren't overwhelmingly popular on only the Ishtar, after all.
White Drop
Nomads of Republic
Smile 'n' Wave
#544 - 2014-07-30 14:35:54 UTC
Please do the slot change for Tempest. Right now it can't compete with other battleships nither in armor, nor in shield tank. Focusing it on armor will make it much more interesting.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#545 - 2014-07-30 14:43:25 UTC
White Drop wrote:
Please do the slot change for Tempest. Right now it can't compete with other battleships nither in armor, nor in shield tank. Focusing it on armor will make it much more interesting.


why? we already have typhoon as armour minmatar. tempest could just be either.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#546 - 2014-07-30 14:49:48 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
White Drop wrote:
Please do the slot change for Tempest. Right now it can't compete with other battleships nither in armor, nor in shield tank. Focusing it on armor will make it much more interesting.


why? we already have typhoon as armour minmatar. tempest could just be either.


phoon can do either .. it actually has more shield HP than armour .. weird indeed

maybe a compromise .. is 7-5-7 ....6 turrets with a 7.5% damage bonus 5% ROF .. with speed increase too be faster than phoon .. this way it would be the fastest shield tanked T1 battleship across the board .. or can be properly armour tanked..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Phaade
Proioxis Assault Force
Rogue Caldari Union
#547 - 2014-07-30 14:49:58 UTC
The ishtar will still be utterly broken. Please make the next patch a real balance pass. Eagle still a joke. Zealot still sucks. Munin miiight be mediocre with more speed.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#548 - 2014-07-30 14:51:09 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
White Drop wrote:
Please do the slot change for Tempest. Right now it can't compete with other battleships nither in armor, nor in shield tank. Focusing it on armor will make it much more interesting.


why? we already have typhoon as armour minmatar. tempest could just be either.



But something must be done. Easier way is to improve the ship bonuses. 7.5% damage instead of 5% would already help a lot.

Right now it can be a bad shield tank battleship or a bad armor battleship. For the same treatment of having only 6 turrets the hyperion got a 10% damage per level bonus and KEPT his repair bonus and 125m drone bay and a superior slot layout . Tempest must use 2 bonuses to still be way worse.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#549 - 2014-07-30 14:52:39 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
White Drop wrote:
Please do the slot change for Tempest. Right now it can't compete with other battleships nither in armor, nor in shield tank. Focusing it on armor will make it much more interesting.


why? we already have typhoon as armour minmatar. tempest could just be either.



But something must be done. Easier way is to improve the ship bonuses. 7.5% damage instead of 5% would already help a lot.

Right now it can be a bad shield tank battleship or a bad armor battleship. For the same treatment of having only 6 turrets the hyperion got a 10% damage per level bonus and KEPT his repair bonus and 125m drone bay and a superior slot layout . Tempest must use 2 bonuses to still be way worse.


yes, projectiles are terrible
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#550 - 2014-07-30 14:57:55 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
White Drop wrote:
Please do the slot change for Tempest. Right now it can't compete with other battleships nither in armor, nor in shield tank. Focusing it on armor will make it much more interesting.


why? we already have typhoon as armour minmatar. tempest could just be either.



But something must be done. Easier way is to improve the ship bonuses. 7.5% damage instead of 5% would already help a lot.

Right now it can be a bad shield tank battleship or a bad armor battleship. For the same treatment of having only 6 turrets the hyperion got a 10% damage per level bonus and KEPT his repair bonus and 125m drone bay and a superior slot layout . Tempest must use 2 bonuses to still be way worse.


yes, projectiles are terrible



Not so much projectiles are terrible. BUt the buff to balsters made projectiles have no zone of combat on battleship scale. Neutron with null outdamage 800mm AC all the way inside long point range. AC still are good on other sizes, but they lost their place in large size because of blaster changes. If you want to fight further still then you are utterly inside Pulses terrain.

Simply a ship based on Projectiles with 2 bonuses focused on damage , a small drone bay and with less slots available for damage mods than its peers (or on the case of shield tank.. with a tank so pathethic that it barely out tanks some t1 cruisers) cannot compete.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#551 - 2014-07-30 14:57:57 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
White Drop wrote:
Please do the slot change for Tempest. Right now it can't compete with other battleships nither in armor, nor in shield tank. Focusing it on armor will make it much more interesting.


why? we already have typhoon as armour minmatar. tempest could just be either.



But something must be done. Easier way is to improve the ship bonuses. 7.5% damage instead of 5% would already help a lot.

Right now it can be a bad shield tank battleship or a bad armor battleship. For the same treatment of having only 6 turrets the hyperion got a 10% damage per level bonus and KEPT his repair bonus and 125m drone bay and a superior slot layout . Tempest must use 2 bonuses to still be way worse.


7.5% damage and 7 lows would completely obsolete the Maelstrom. The Tempest would be better in every way.
Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation
#552 - 2014-07-30 14:58:48 UTC
Random Idea:

Sentry drones take up 50 m3 drone bay, 50 MBit/sec bandwidth. Double Damage multiplier and add an extra 50% HP.

Add a rig to add Drone Bandwidth at the expense of CPU (small adds 5, med adds 10, large adds 25, Capital adds 125)

Now a Domi can have 3 Sentries (which are now firing as much dps as 6 old sentries) at the expense of a rig slot. If the ishtar wants that too, it has to spend all 3 rig slots. Seems a good trade to me.

Cedric

Corey Edward
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#553 - 2014-07-30 14:59:14 UTC
Has anyone considered the cap recharge rate? The reason that you don't often see VNIs mixed in with Ishtars is that they have cap issues. The Ishtar is cap stable with all mods on and can perma-MWD. By most ship class standards, that is OP; especially for cruisers.

I think sentries are a unique weapon system and have some serious disadvantages in that they are not connected to the ship and are stationary. I'm interested to see how this small nerf plays out, but I think they should take a closer look at the ishtar itself instead of nerfing sentries into oblivion.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#554 - 2014-07-30 15:02:58 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
White Drop wrote:
Please do the slot change for Tempest. Right now it can't compete with other battleships nither in armor, nor in shield tank. Focusing it on armor will make it much more interesting.


why? we already have typhoon as armour minmatar. tempest could just be either.



But something must be done. Easier way is to improve the ship bonuses. 7.5% damage instead of 5% would already help a lot.

Right now it can be a bad shield tank battleship or a bad armor battleship. For the same treatment of having only 6 turrets the hyperion got a 10% damage per level bonus and KEPT his repair bonus and 125m drone bay and a superior slot layout . Tempest must use 2 bonuses to still be way worse.


7.5% damage and 7 lows would completely obsolete the Maelstrom. The Tempest would be better in every way.



nope would not... it would still have a far inferior tank and far less EHP . And Less dps. Yes less dps. Remember the drone bay and the fact hat maelstroms always have 3 damage mods, while most tempets would field 2.

It would nto obsolete on ANYTHIGN the maelstrom, woudl not even touch its relam.

The maelstrom also would remain as the prime fleet ship for alpha doctrines since it has larger EHP pool by bein g a combat battleship. If you want you coud reduce a bit tempest EHP even more when adding damage, biasign it even more as an attack battleship.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

White Drop
Nomads of Republic
Smile 'n' Wave
#555 - 2014-07-30 15:04:42 UTC  |  Edited by: White Drop
TrouserDeagle wrote:
White Drop wrote:
Please do the slot change for Tempest. Right now it can't compete with other battleships nither in armor, nor in shield tank. Focusing it on armor will make it much more interesting.


why? we already have typhoon as armour minmatar. tempest could just be either.



Typhoon is based on missiles. It means that he can't do that good instant alpha damage, and is not that good in close-range brawling becouse of torpedoes explosion radius, even with the ship's bonus for it. It still is a nice ship, but it would be great to have armored ship capable of doing nice alpha-volley. With all that BS and HACs rebalancing happend past years tempest realy lost it's possitions. He is not good enough for armor fleet, as well as for shield. Nowadays it is only used to "cheap and quic" kill a few capitals, but this great ship deserves much more love from developers.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#556 - 2014-07-30 15:11:25 UTC
White Drop wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
White Drop wrote:
Please do the slot change for Tempest. Right now it can't compete with other battleships nither in armor, nor in shield tank. Focusing it on armor will make it much more interesting.


why? we already have typhoon as armour minmatar. tempest could just be either.



Typhoon is based on missiles. It means that he can't do that good instant alpha damage, and is not that good in close-range brawling becouse of torpedoes explosiun radius, even with the ship's bonus for it. It still is a nice ship, but it would be great to have armored ship capable of doing nice alpha-volley. With all that BS and HACs rebalancing happend past years tempest realy lost it's possitions. He is not good enough for armor fleet, as well as for shield. Nowadays it is only used to "cheap and quic" kill a few capitals, but this great ship deserves much more love from developers.


torpedoes being utterly awful is not intentional, it's just yet another balance issue to be resolved.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#557 - 2014-07-30 15:14:55 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
bombers are precisely why the big boys don't field battleships more often

And again, big boys of ye olde nullsec did use battleships because
a) there were no bombers,
b) they had no MJD which only distracts pilot attention and is useless otherwise,
c) the grass was greener.

FYI, bombers can wipe fleets of Tengus and even Mighty Ishtars.
Yet, those ships are still in use.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#558 - 2014-07-30 15:17:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Kagura Nikon wrote:

nope would not... it would still have a far inferior tank and far less EHP . And Less dps. Yes less dps. Remember the drone bay and the fact hat maelstroms always have 3 damage mods, while most tempets would field 2.

It would nto obsolete on ANYTHIGN the maelstrom, woudl not even touch its relam.

The maelstrom also would remain as the prime fleet ship for alpha doctrines since it has larger EHP pool by bein g a combat battleship. If you want you coud reduce a bit tempest EHP even more when adding damage, biasign it even more as an attack battleship.


Uhm, no. Shield tanks have complete **** for EHP. The Rokh has less EHP than an Apoc (let alone a Megathron) despite having a resist bonus, the Maelstrom vs. a 7-low Tempest would be an even larger gap.

Armor has higher base resists than shield, (130 total vs. 110) and invulnerability fields stacking nerf the shield ganglink severely. Armor tanks can run a 3-hardener setup and get the ganglink at 88%, this more than makes up for the higher values on the invulerability fields. Then there's the fact that plates give more EHP than extenders and don't bloom your signature radius.

A Tempest with 3 hardeners, DCU, 3 trimarks, and a single plate has more EHP than a Maelstrom with 2 invulns, 2 LSEs, a DCU, and three field extenders. That same tempest can also run an injector, tracking computer, and sensor booster. The Maelstrom only has 1 midslot left, it has to pick one of those three. Oh, and the tempest has about half the signature radius, which significantly improves its effective tank, especially against bombers.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#559 - 2014-07-30 15:24:13 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:
Its good at ganking.
It is the cheapest ship in the game that does around 1k dps combined with 2 heavy neuts, and its speed makes it a perfect capital/supercapital ganking ship.

The typhoon does better (1170 dps with 2 neuts 1358 with 1 neut

When it comes to super ganks, missile platform is not the best choice, because of smartbombs.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#560 - 2014-07-30 15:24:34 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

nope would not... it would still have a far inferior tank and far less EHP . And Less dps. Yes less dps. Remember the drone bay and the fact hat maelstroms always have 3 damage mods, while most tempets would field 2.

It would nto obsolete on ANYTHIGN the maelstrom, woudl not even touch its relam.

The maelstrom also would remain as the prime fleet ship for alpha doctrines since it has larger EHP pool by bein g a combat battleship. If you want you coud reduce a bit tempest EHP even more when adding damage, biasign it even more as an attack battleship.


Uhm, no. Shield tanks have complete **** for EHP. The Rokh has less EHP than an Apoc (let alone a Megathron) despite having a resist bonus, the Maelstrom vs. a 7-low Tempest would be an even larger gap.

Armor has higher base resists than shield, (130 total vs. 110) and invulnerability fields stacking nerf the shield ganglink severely. Armor tanks can run a 3-hardener setup and get the ganglink at 88%, this more than makes up for the higher values on the invulerability fields. Then there's the fact that plates give more EHP than extenders and don't bloom your signature radius.

A Tempest with 3 hardeners, DCU, 3 trimarks, and a single plate has more EHP than a Maelstrom with 2 invulns, 2 LSEs, a DCU, and three field extenders. That same tempest can also run an injector, tracking computer, and sensor booster. The Maelstrom only has 1 midslot left, it has to pick one of those three. Oh, and the tempest has about half the signature radius, which significantly improves its effective tank, especially against bombers.


As i said, can reduce tempest EHP a bit more. And remember tempest cannot fit the arties and prop mod/ mjd as easily as the maelstrom because of PG. And WHY in HELL you would use an injector in an arti tempest or arti maelstrom? To feed what? the sensor booster?

And EVE if the tempest take the arti role ( and if it took would not be outshinign the maelstrom , woould be a matter of preference almost), maelstrom is still the far stronger smaller scale brawler with a massive tank. There is a reason why I still see a lot of maelstroms being used on that role and never a single tempest.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"