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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
#241 - 2014-07-29 17:29:24 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.


The 5 sentries have as much or more ehp then the ship itself not to mention they can drop 2 more sets. So why would anyone in their right mind kill the set of sentries when they can kill the ship?

Blue-Fire Best Fire
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#242 - 2014-07-29 17:30:24 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Make drone ship also lose connection to its drones/sentries if jammed by ECM and/or Sensor Damps. That on top of a max range to maintain active connection to drones/sentries would balance sentries and drone boats all around.


One thing I was really annoyed with: ECM Bursts seems to not effect drones effectively. This should be changed so an ECM burst causes a drone to lose all locks and then aggro based on CCP's wonky drone aggro AI.


Yeah. Why should a drone ship be immune to ecm/damps and not lose connection to their drones?

People bitched about afk ratting and mission running, but rats do use ewar. Their ewar should affect the ship's connection with its drones.

Stargate Universe. There was an enemy that used drones. The crew of the Destiny managed to fight by jamming the drone ship, which rendered the drones inert until the drone ship could break the jam. It was great and made sense. I want that in EVE.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#243 - 2014-07-29 17:30:37 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

I get more tank out of my Oracle than my ratting/PVP hybrid (not the weapon system) Ishtar and my pure PVP Ishtar, while having similar DPS and range.

Happy now? Roll

i am less than inclined to take your word for it when you obviously take into account so little in these comparisons that you cited your ratting fit

many people have already pointed out the scads of things you overlooked and i think we can essentially declare your point completely disproven and move onto the next
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#244 - 2014-07-29 17:33:02 UTC
Sentry guns should not be readily deployable in a cruiser sized hull. This isn't a issue of variety or flexibility. If it was CCP would be looking at all those ewar drones nobody uses.

There are more than just ECM drones, there are target painter drones, webber drones, neuting drones, sensor dampening drones. A huge variety that is not used in the least by anybody in the community.

Don't use variety and flexibility as an argument for drone Ishtar balance when over half the drones in eve aren't even considered even remotely viable in any sense of the word by anybody for any reason in any situation.

Yaay!!!!
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#245 - 2014-07-29 17:38:54 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
I get more tank out of my Oracle than my ratting/PVP hybrid (not the weapon system) Ishtar and my pure PVP Ishtar, while having similar DPS and range.

Folks, that's just stupid.
Rise has acknowledged that sentry Ishtars are OP. And they are OP on purpose. But to compensate, they have enormous downsides, i.e. sentries are destructable.
The problem is, that they can not be destructed in any practical way I can think of.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#246 - 2014-07-29 17:40:03 UTC
Mods, please rename this thread to ENORMOUS DOWNSIDES: The Ishtar Story

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#247 - 2014-07-29 17:40:23 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Why isn't anyone discussing Eagle changes, is it because no one cares about Eagles.


i have in this thread and the original thread .. i got ignored then and will probably now..

some drones and plenty more speed for a blaster option too be viable..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Role Play
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#248 - 2014-07-29 17:41:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Role Play
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Requiescat wrote:
solo battleship


please, rise and fozzie are delusional enough already



CCP Rise used to solo battheships all the time.


https://www.youtube.com/user/jampyzero/videos

Also there used to be videos on club-bear.com but they are gone now. You can find the mirrors online somewhere.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#249 - 2014-07-29 17:43:30 UTC
Role Play wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Requiescat wrote:
solo battleship


please, rise and fozzie are delusional enough already



CCP Rise used to solo battheships all the time.




so did I, and it only worked because of bads. people are less bad now.
Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
#250 - 2014-07-29 17:45:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Taleden
Harvey James wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Why isn't anyone discussing Eagle changes, is it because no one cares about Eagles.


i have in this thread and the original thread .. i got ignored then and will probably now..

some drones and plenty more speed for a blaster option too be viable..


The Eagle does also need some love beyond a nominal speed increase. A 25m3 drone bay and a better damage bonus to put its rail DPS on par with the Deimos would go a long way.

As it stands, is there *ever* a compelling reason to use an Eagle over a Deimos? I can't see a niche for cruiser gun sniping, since at snipe ranges the sig/tracking of the guns doesn't matter so much, so wouldn't you just snipe in a Naga instead?

EDIT: The Eagle/Deimos comparison is even stranger as I think more about that drone bay. The Deimos is tailored for blasters which can hit smaller targets, and also gets the bay and bandwidth for light or medium drones for the same purpose; meanwhile the Eagle is tailored for rails which cannot hit small targets up close, and is also denied any drones at all, making it doubly vulnerable to smaller attackers. What's the logic there?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#251 - 2014-07-29 17:45:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Rek Seven wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.


Have you considered changing sentries so that they keep up with and orbit the ship that deploys them? This would effectively turn them into a turret and would allow a pursuer to chase the ship down without it being a suicide run.


perhaps add a new type of sentry drone .. called mobile gundrones or something along those lines...

make ishtar damage bonus tied too them instead .. reduce their dps and range a little .. compared too the current sentries..


Why not just change sentries? It would solve a lot of problems and it makes sense when you think about it... We have combat drones that operate away from the ship, and sentry drones that act as shipboard turrets.


well cos current sentries are OK for battleships due too the lack of mobility battleships have .. a slight dps nerf too sentries and they would be fine along with the assuming nerf too domis tracking/range bonus like the ishtar is getting..

but the ishtar needs too have a less powerful version of sentries or weaker damage too sentries .. but i like this idea more ..
also 'sentries' suggest a lack of movement ... i.e. sitting still .. and adding options are good

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#252 - 2014-07-29 17:47:39 UTC
Taleden wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Why isn't anyone discussing Eagle changes, is it because no one cares about Eagles.


i have in this thread and the original thread .. i got ignored then and will probably now..

some drones and plenty more speed for a blaster option too be viable..


The Eagle does also need some love beyond a nominal speed increase. A 25m3 drone bay and a better damage bonus to put its rail DPS on par with the Deimos would go a long way.

As it stands, is there *ever* a compelling reason to use an Eagle over a Deimos? I can't see a niche for cruiser gun sniping, since at snipe ranges the sig/tracking of the guns doesn't matter so much, so wouldn't you just snipe in a Naga instead?


i think this was the crux of the argument in general with why use HAC's over ABC's ..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#253 - 2014-07-29 17:48:03 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
I get more tank out of my Oracle than my ratting/PVP hybrid (not the weapon system) Ishtar and my pure PVP Ishtar, while having similar DPS and range.

Folks, that's just stupid.
Rise has acknowledged that sentry Ishtars are OP. And they are OP on purpose. But to compensate, they have enormous downsides, i.e. sentries are destructable.
The problem is, that they can not be destructed in any practical way I can think of.


Bomb runs? Forcing Ishtars to warp off and then shoot or scoop them? Frigates? Dedicated ships? Mobile drones from your ships?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#254 - 2014-07-29 17:49:15 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Make drone ship also lose connection to its drones/sentries if jammed by ECM and/or Sensor Damps. That on top of a max range to maintain active connection to drones/sentries would balance sentries and drone boats all around.


One thing I was really annoyed with: ECM Bursts seems to not effect drones effectively. This should be changed so an ECM burst causes a drone to lose all locks and then aggro based on CCP's wonky drone aggro AI.


Yeah. Why should a drone ship be immune to ecm/damps and not lose connection to their drones?

People bitched about afk ratting and mission running, but rats do use ewar. Their ewar should affect the ship's connection with its drones.

Stargate Universe. There was an enemy that used drones. The crew of the Destiny managed to fight by jamming the drone ship, which rendered the drones inert until the drone ship could break the jam. It was great and made sense. I want that in EVE.


indeed .. if a drone needs its parent ship too function then why does it not need a constant connection ??? surely any interruption like ecm or damps should render them idle..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Dr Ngo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#255 - 2014-07-29 17:49:17 UTC
A word on the Ishtar and kiting in general.

I think it's always been hard to gauge balance of kiting ships in eve. No matter how well balanced they are whomever dies when someone is trying to kite will almost always feel like there was nothing they could do. If you add in the factor that many smaller groups have traditionally used kiting tactics to engage larger forces by relying on individual skill and counterplay just gives it a 'The blob is real' sort of feel. Another issue is that if you make kiting ships TOO good at harassing larger fleets than larger fleets will just bring tons of kiting ships.

I don't envy the job of balancing them, it was thankless in nano, it was thankless with tier 3s and it's thankless now.

I like the smaller and more frequent changes, it makes me confident that if a horribly unbalanced change goes through we won't have to wait 6 months for it to get smoothed over.

That being said sentries (and let's be honest, drones in general) have been in a bit of a dumb place for a while now and when you add into that the fact that cruiser and bc based hulls have slowly been moved away from a full flight of heavies/sentries over the course of eve it makes me think that maybe something more needs to be done. Have you thought about introducing medium sentry drones that would be designed for non-bs hulls? Balancing a weapons system that is used equally on cruisers, battleships and capital ships seems difficult and you've been tweaking all three classes for awhile to try to make it work, plus it would be easier to find a place for something like the Ishtar without neutering or breaking the domi if you could play with a medium and heavy variant individually.
Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
#256 - 2014-07-29 17:52:08 UTC
Dr Ngo wrote:
... plus it would be easier to find a place for something like the Ishtar without neutering or breaking the domi if you could play with a medium and heavy variant individually.


They can already do this. Different hulls, different bonuses. Why do both of them have to have exactly the same +10% drone damage/hitpoints hull bonus? They don't. They shouldn't. Problem solved.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#257 - 2014-07-29 17:52:41 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
CCP Rise wrote:
We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.


Great, but it's still not well balanced, even accounting for the downsides to sentry drones.

As an aside to everyone making hay over the tracking, please don't forget that sig resolution is also a factor in tracking. If you extract sig resolution and tracking speed from the gun damage formula and calculate sig res/tracking speed, you get something we'll just call the "Tracking Factor" that does a more thorough job of expressing how well a gun actually applies damage.

So with that in mind, Tracking Factors for some common setups. Generally a larger Tracking Factor would be worse, although we're ignoring the range element entirely. The (transversal/range) factor would apply to each number identically, however.

Pulse Zealot (Scorch, range scripted TC): 1641 (39+6.5 range, 406 DPS w/ 2x Heat Sink)
Beam Zealot (Multifreq, range scripted TC): 3367 (36+13 range, 557 DPS w/ 2x Heat Sink)
Rail Tengu (250mm Rails w/ AM: 4817 (36+15 range, 482 DPS w/ 3x Magstab)
Current Ishtar w/ Gardes, no tracking mods: 8080 (41+18 range, 421-702 DPS depending on DDA count)
Current Ishtar w/ Gardes, 3x Tracking scripted Omni: 4209 (41+18 range, 421-702 DPS depending on DDA count)
Current Ishtar w/ Gardes, 1x Tracking Scripted Omni: 6216 (41+18 range, 421-702 DPS depending on DDA count)
New Ishtar w/ Gardes, no tracking mods: 8889 (37.5+18 range, 421-702 DPS depending on DDA count)
New Ishtar w/ Gardes, 3x Tracking scripted Omni: 4630 (37.5+18 range, 421-702 DPS depending on DDA count)
New Ishtar w/ Gardes, 1x Tracking Scripted Omni: 6838 (41+18 range, 421-702 DPS depending on DDA count)
Gardes on an Armageddon, no tracking mods: 11111 (30+18 range, 421-702 DPS depending on DDA count)
Gardes on an Armageddon, 3x Tracking scripted Omni: 5788 (30+18 range, 421-702 DPS depending on DDA count)
Baltec Megathron (tracking scripted, Antimatter): 18570 (36+30 range, 528 DPS)
Baltec Apocalypse (tracking scripted, Multifreq): 11692 (41+20 range, 433 DPS)

And just for good measure...

Baltec Megathron with 3x tracking scripted TC: 11997
Baltec Apocalypse with 3x tracking scripted TC: 7917
Navy Apoc with 3x tracking scripted TC and Megapulses with Scorch: 4789 (74+10 with 520 DPS, incidentally; that's two heat sinks and a Locus rig)

These numbers are deceptive, however. The gunships must account for their own motion; drones do not. That's obviously an upside and a downside.



Anyway, to break off from the lesson about tracking & damage application and cut to the chase I think the problem with the Ishtar is more in that the battleship sized weapons give it a decidedly outsized capacity to deal damage, and the slot layout enables applying that damage as "fit a bunch of Omnilinks" isn't really forcing much of a tradeoff. I propose:


  • The tracking change you already posted; leave speed as-is.
  • Split the damage bonus and give it 5%/level to Sentries and 10%/level to everything else. That'd give Gardes a damage range of 351-585 DPS with 0-3 Omnis (as opposed to 421-702 now). This leaves the potential for a healthy damage edge over other HACs without being absurd, though it does grow at longer ranges (it's 310-516 DPS at 72km with Bouncers, compared to 278 for a Beam Zealot or 322 for a Tengu). Could also bake the drone control range bonus into the hull and make 5% sentry damage in its place.
  • Note that the damage bonus creates a differentiation between heavies and sentries for damage which honestly is badly needed in general, and frankly an alternative to changing the Ishtar's damage bonus would just be to take 20% off the top end of Sentries themselves.
  • Maybe do -1 mid, +1 low. That reduces the midslot flexibility just a little as well as doing more to encourage armor over shields (which trades off more between damage, tank and speed)


Big change? Yup. Gut the ship? Not at all.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#258 - 2014-07-29 17:54:13 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Make drone ship also lose connection to its drones/sentries if jammed by ECM and/or Sensor Damps. That on top of a max range to maintain active connection to drones/sentries would balance sentries and drone boats all around.


One thing I was really annoyed with: ECM Bursts seems to not effect drones effectively. This should be changed so an ECM burst causes a drone to lose all locks and then aggro based on CCP's wonky drone aggro AI.


Yeah. Why should a drone ship be immune to ecm/damps and not lose connection to their drones?

People bitched about afk ratting and mission running, but rats do use ewar. Their ewar should affect the ship's connection with its drones.

Stargate Universe. There was an enemy that used drones. The crew of the Destiny managed to fight by jamming the drone ship, which rendered the drones inert until the drone ship could break the jam. It was great and made sense. I want that in EVE.


indeed .. if a drone needs its parent ship too function then why does it not need a constant connection ??? surely any interruption like ecm or damps should render them idle..


Would be a more basic balance to all drone ships too.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#259 - 2014-07-29 17:56:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Regnar
mynnna wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.


Great, but it's still not well balanced, even accounting for the downsides to sentry drones.

As an aside to everyone making hay over the tracking, please don't forget that sig resolution is also a factor in tracking. If you extract sig resolution and tracking speed from the gun damage formula and calculate sig res/tracking speed, you get something we'll just call the "Tracking Factor" that does a more thorough job of expressing how well a gun actually applies damage.

So with that in mind, Tracking Factors for some common setups. Generally a larger Tracking Factor would be worse, although we're ignoring the range element entirely. The (transversal/range) factor would apply to each number identically, however.

Pulse Zealot (Scorch, range scripted TC): 1641 (39+6.5 range, 406 DPS w/ 2x Heat Sink)
Beam Zealot (Multifreq, range scripted TC): 3367 (36+13 range, 557 DPS w/ 2x Heat Sink)
Rail Tengu (250mm Rails w/ AM: 4817 (36+15 range, 482 DPS w/ 3x Magstab)
Current Ishtar w/ Gardes, no tracking mods: 8080 (41+18 range, 421-702 DPS depending on DDA count)
Current Ishtar w/ Gardes, 3x Tracking scripted Omni: 4209 (41+18 range, 421-702 DPS depending on DDA count)
Current Ishtar w/ Gardes, 1x Tracking Scripted Omni: 6216 (41+18 range, 421-702 DPS depending on DDA count)
New Ishtar w/ Gardes, no tracking mods: 8889 (37.5+18 range, 421-702 DPS depending on DDA count)
New Ishtar w/ Gardes, 3x Tracking scripted Omni: 4630 (37.5+18 range, 421-702 DPS depending on DDA count)
New Ishtar w/ Gardes, 1x Tracking Scripted Omni: 6838 (41+18 range, 421-702 DPS depending on DDA count)
Gardes on an Armageddon, no tracking mods: 11111 (30+18 range, 421-702 DPS depending on DDA count)
Gardes on an Armageddon, 3x Tracking scripted Omni: 5788 (30+18 range, 421-702 DPS depending on DDA count)
Baltec Megathron (tracking scripted, Antimatter): 18570 (36+30 range, 528 DPS)
Baltec Apocalypse (tracking scripted, Multifreq): 11692 (41+20 range, 433 DPS)

And just for good measure...

Baltec Megathron with 3x tracking scripted TC: 11997
Baltec Apocalypse with 3x tracking scripted TC: 7917
Navy Apoc with 3x tracking scripted TC and Megapulses with Scorch: 4789 (74+10 with 520 DPS, incidentally; that's two heat sinks and a Locus rig)

These numbers are deceptive, however. The gunships must account for their own motion; drones do not. That's obviously an upside and a downside.



Anyway, to break off from the lesson about tracking & damage application and cut to the chase I think the problem with the Ishtar is more in that the battleship sized weapons give it a decidedly outsized capacity to deal damage, and the slot layout enables applying that damage as "fit a bunch of Omnilinks" isn't really forcing much of a tradeoff. I propose:


  • The tracking change you already posted; leave speed as-is.
  • Split the damage bonus and give it 5%/level to Sentries and 10%/level to everything else. That'd give Gardes a damage range of 351-585 DPS with 0-3 Omnis (as opposed to 421-702 now). This leaves the potential for a healthy damage edge over other HACs without being absurd, though it does grow at longer ranges (it's 310-516 DPS at 72km with Bouncers, compared to 278 for a Beam Zealot or 322 for a Tengu). Could also bake the drone control range bonus into the hull and make 5% sentry damage in its place.
  • Note that the damage bonus creates a differentiation between heavies and sentries for damage which honestly is badly needed in general, and frankly an alternative to changing the Ishtar's damage bonus would just be to take 20% off the top end of Sentries themselves.
  • Maybe do -1 mid, +1 low. That reduces the midslot flexibility just a little as well as doing more to encourage armor over shields (which trades off more between damage, tank and speed)

Wow this is wrong on so many levels. I expected someone like you to have more of an idea.

Baltec... Its baltec because no damage mods. How about comparing something in the whole spectrum of tank and dps.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#260 - 2014-07-29 17:59:54 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Wow this is wrong on so many levels. I expected someone like you to have more of an idea.

Baltec... Its baltec because no damage mods. How about comparing something in the whole spectrum of tank and dps.

FYI, a "Baltec" Megathron fit has one Magnetic Field Stabilizer.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.