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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#101 - 2014-07-29 15:10:05 UTC
Another potential compromise, if you're intent on leaving sentry bonuses on the Ishtar: split out the drone damage bonus. The bonuses would look something like this:

Ship bonus:
50.00% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty
25km bonus to Drone operation range

Gallente Cruiser skill level:
7.50% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed
10.00% bonus to Small, Medium, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruisers skill level:
5.00% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage
5.00% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed

This would let you separately tune sentry damage against other drones, and move the sentry bonus to the Heavy Assault Cruisers skill, which is much more difficult to maximize.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#102 - 2014-07-29 15:11:36 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
@CCP Rise - For battleships, They would be used more if you Nerf Tier 3 battlecruisers.

264 DPS - Omen 5x Heavy Beam Lasers II (Multifreq)
356 DPS - Harbenger 6x Heavy Beam Lasers II
455 DPS - Oracle 8x Tachyon Beam Laser II
455 DPS - Abaddon 8x Tachyon Beam Laser II

Removing 1 turret slot from the oracle drops it to 398 DPS

But Caldari gets even better.

272 DPS - Moa 5x Heavy Neutron Blasters
305 DPS - Ferox 7x Heavy Neutron Blasters
584 DPS - Naga 8x Neutron Blaster Cannon
467 DPS - Rokh 8x Neutron Blaster Cannon

I cannot be blind. There is a major disconnect here. A lot of people will say "Oh but the tank will off set the imbalance in DPS"
NO.
IT.
DOESN'T.



the tank offsets the imbalance in dps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
TheButcherPete
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#103 - 2014-07-29 15:12:13 UTC
I like how the Muninn is so irrelevant that people have barely mentioned it here.

[b]THE KING OF EVE RADIO

If EVE is real, does that mean all of us are RMTrs?[/b]
Nartel Vortok
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2014-07-29 15:12:26 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
Rise - For battleships, They would be used more if you Nerf Tier 3 battlecruisers.

264 DPS - Omen 5x Heavy Beam Lasers II (Multifreq)
356 DPS - Harbenger 6x Heavy Beam Lasers II
455 DPS - Oracle 8x Tachyon Beam Laser II
455 DPS - Abaddon 8x Tachyon Beam Laser II

Removing 1 turret slot from the oracle drops it to 398 DPS

But Caldari gets even better.

272 DPS - Moa 5x Heavy Neutron Blasters
305 DPS - Ferox 7x Heavy Neutron Blasters
584 DPS - Naga 8x Neutron Blaster Cannon
467 DPS - Rokh 8x Neutron Blaster Cannon

I cannot be blind. There is a major disconnect here. A lot of people will say "Oh but the tank will off set the imbalance in DPS"
NO.
IT.
DOESN'T.



you know tier 3s are designed to be glass cannons right?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2014-07-29 15:13:13 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:

Yet rails have never alphad a tengue on an undock before. Arty need to have their damaged reduced slightly and have their ROF upped slightly

Then you're bringing them in to be redundant to rail guns and beams which defeats the purpose of alpha artillery


I am not saying reduce to lvls of rails or beams more in the line of 8k vollys, 12k is to high and is being abused is so many ways in this game. Yes some ships will still die to this but most ships that should not die to a single shot will no longer.



They would still be completely worthless. That is how they were before they were buffer. EXACTLY THAT 8K alpha on maelstrom. And guess what NO ONE used any arties anywhere. They are NOT being abused. That is minmatar flavor. WAY less dps and WAY less tracking . Not to forget much ahrder to fit than rails.

Stop trying to make everything equal for god's sake. Then you need to nerf blasters DPS as well by 40% because it is too high. Then you also nerf missiles range by 40% because it is too high. Stop tryign to make everything the same.

Anyoen that have a serious problems with arties nowadays is completely cleeless of PVP . Theya re the most specialzied weapon system in game, uselles on everything else!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2014-07-29 15:14:55 UTC
TheButcherPete wrote:
I like how the Muninn is so irrelevant that people have barely mentioned it here.



because its theorethical niche does not exist in eve. Its alpha strike capability is not enough with 650 mm to kill anythign relevant. And 720mm ones are too fragile to fight anything relevant.

What muninn needs is a 10% increase in PG and CPU.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#107 - 2014-07-29 15:17:53 UTC
Ishtar Online. Crow Online. A year ago it was Tengu Online. A bit further back Maelstrom, Drake and Rifter Online. Who cares? I can live with this Ishtar iteration. IT still keeps it as a viable Drone boat. If this is not the case anymore, I drop the Ishtar for a Tengu ... again. Such a change. And then people cry again about that the Tengu is OP because you can refit and resub it for cloak/nulli, which the Ishtar can't... This hypocrisy is very irritating, albeit entertaining at the same time. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
#108 - 2014-07-29 15:18:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Red Teufel
Ishtars are popular because of the old drone assist exploit FC's used in the past. So allot of people are using ishtars because of this. Nerfing them any more then what was already done is too much. Then you have the folks who have been destroyed by a small gang of ishtars complaining even though they brought kitchen sink fleet fitted for anoms to counter them. People are after the ishtar because it is the preferred ship due to its ability to deploy sentryโ€™s and run around tricking the enemy to stay in the range of influence of the sentry guns. If you nerf the Ishtar the complaints will just move to the tengu or the demios. If you want to make a change try buffing web drones or nerfing sentry EHP.
TheButcherPete
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#109 - 2014-07-29 15:18:55 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
TheButcherPete wrote:
I like how the Muninn is so irrelevant that people have barely mentioned it here.



because its theorethical niche does not exist in eve. Its alpha strike capability is not enough with 650 mm to kill anythign relevant. And 720mm ones are too fragile to fight anything relevant.

What muninn needs is a 10% increase in PG and CPU.


Well, the ones that don't get volleyed off the field at the start of the engagement can also instalock fit and pop hostile pods!

That's useful right? Right?

[b]THE KING OF EVE RADIO

If EVE is real, does that mean all of us are RMTrs?[/b]
Duckslayer
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#110 - 2014-07-29 15:19:45 UTC
Battleships seem in an ok place right now? Jesus you must have never tried to run a MWD on a battleship then. Why is the cap use so massive in comparison to other classes
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#111 - 2014-07-29 15:22:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Duckslayer wrote:
Battleships seem in an ok place right now? Jesus you must have never tried to run a MWD on a battleship then. Why is the cap use so massive in comparison to other classes

gun boat battleships generally have really really bad capacitor problems to the point they must run heavy capacitor boosters with 800's or be useless within a minute or less

the abaddon is the perfect example of this, large lasers use an incredible amount of cap to fire, if you add anything to an abaddon that uses cap, tracking computers, active hardeners or anything it becomes extremely hard to fly, thats not even counting a microwarp drive, afterburner is always a bad choice on heavy ships like that

and its not just the abaddon, the abaddon is just the worst offender, the hyperion and other cap hungry ships are the same but its funny because the Rohk doesn't have this problem really, the megathron and hyperion do.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#112 - 2014-07-29 15:22:53 UTC
You need to be within 5000m of a sentry drone to issue commands to it.

PvE: not affected
PvP: affected
Ishtar: bombed
Kalicondoin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#113 - 2014-07-29 15:23:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalicondoin
CCP Rise wrote:


... Battleships especially seem to be in a pretty solid place. There are ships within the class getting less use than others, but that is almost completely due to either the meta favoring certain things (this is why the Abaddon isn't seeing a lot of action for example) or due to the ship falling into a niche that isn't extremely popular even though the ship performs exceptionally in that niche (the Hyperion is a great example of this). So the result is that for now we are going to leave BS alone and keep checking back for opportunities to make improvements.



HA right... battleships need a buff to survivability - across the board. Damage projection is good and the niche ship bonuses are also good, but they are so easily wiped off field. They just need a raw EHP buff to make them the go to ships for the larger fleet actions. This will also help with bringing the Tec3s back in line as they will no longer have this fabled Battleship EHP.

On a side note I also think that remote reps need a slight nerf, just a tweak to the amount per cycle



"Sentry drones are the problem, not the Ishtars. I hope this helps in your decision making process." - Aryndel Vyst 2014
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#114 - 2014-07-29 15:24:13 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Greygal wrote:
Is there a timetable for the Ishtar and other HAC changes to go live? I.e., will these changes be going live before, during, or after the Alliance Tournament?

Thanks!

GG


Hyperion's release date is September 23, 2014, so after the AT.


According to the thread title, it says Hyperion.
According to this and this, Hyperion's Release date is September 23rd. (which may be incorrect).

Accoding to CCP Fozzie's recent tweet, it will go live on Aug 26th, in the middle of the Tourney.

Is hyperion being moved up, is CCP Fozzie wrong, or can we please remove the "Hyperion" tag on this F&I post since it will be released PRIOR to Hyperion?

Duckslayer
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#115 - 2014-07-29 15:26:46 UTC
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
Duckslayer wrote:
Battleships seem in an ok place right now? Jesus you must have never tried to run a MWD on a battleship then. Why is the cap use so massive in comparison to other classes

gun boat battleships generally have really really bad capacitor problems to the point they must run heavy capacitor boosters with 800's or be useless within a minute or less

the abaddon is the perfect example of this, large lasers use an incredible amount of cap to fire, if you add anything to an abaddon that uses cap, tracking computers, active hardeners or anything it becomes extremely hard to fly, thats not even counting a microwarp drive, afterburner is always a bad choice on heavy ships like that

and its not just the abaddon, the abaddon is just the worst offender, the hyperion and other cap hungry ships are the same but its funny because the Rohk doesn't have this problem really, the megathron and hyperion do.



Try running a standard Shield tempest with a cap booster, and its capless guns. Its absolute trash. Its supposed to be a faster, more agile kitey battleship.

Can we discuss the effects of the Tracking Enhancer nerf here too? Seriously. Projectiles + TE nerf (apparently to sort out the lol falloff on the mach and talos, instead of just nerfing the mach and talos) make most minnie ships poor for their class.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#116 - 2014-07-29 15:29:07 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Greygal wrote:
Is there a timetable for the Ishtar and other HAC changes to go live? I.e., will these changes be going live before, during, or after the Alliance Tournament?

Thanks!

GG


Hyperion's release date is September 23, 2014, so after the AT.


According to the thread title, it says Hyperion.
According to this and this, Hyperion's Release date is September 23rd. (which may be incorrect).

Accoding to CCP Fozzie's recent tweet, it will go live on Aug 26th, in the middle of the Tourney.

Is hyperion being moved up, is CCP Fozzie wrong, or can we please remove the "Hyperion" tag on this F&I post since it will be released PRIOR to Hyperion?



the 2 links you posted are old and out of date they moved up the dates 1 ...
august 26th is the hyperion release date

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#117 - 2014-07-29 15:30:48 UTC
Ishtar: remove the sentry/heavy bonuses, replace with mediums.

That's why they're wrecking everything. My Vagabond isn't sporting Cruise Missiles or 1200mm artillery. Take the BS weapon systems away from the medium size HAC, suddenly it's back in it's own weight class, still punching above it with powerful medium weapons, T2 resists, the extra operation range, etc. The change being proposed might as well not happen. People will drop whatever utility they had in their mids and pop on an extra Omni. Nerf un-nerfed.

Tempest: Pull the high slot.

The current 8-5-6 is pretty versatile; stop trying to force her into an armor tank. Read your own flavor text
Evelopedia wrote:
The Tempest is one of the Republic Fleet's key vessels; a versatile gunship proficient at long-range bombardment and capable of dishing out specialized types of damage with great effectiveness.
She's primarily an artillery boat. 'Long range bombardment' with artillery requires low slots for gyros and TEs. If you want the Tempest to come back into play, pull the extra hi and give it to the mids. Now you've got a 7-6-6 with room for either tank, she's still versatile with a utility hi, the option to mount missiles, and still built to hammer the hell out of targets.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#118 - 2014-07-29 15:33:27 UTC
I don't think the nerf will be sufficient for the Ishtar as a sentry ship. But if you nerf it too hard on other parameters it will just end up being useless. I would love to see ishtar being used more with other drones than sentries.

One suggestion would be to remove or nerf the drone control range bonus forcing people to give up more fitting for an extra drone range thingy to use it as longrange sentry boat.

Another thing could be to nerf the dronebay (50mbit would seem fair). Right now the ishtar can field 3 full flights of sentries or 2 flights with spares + utility drones, which makes it easy to get around what was supposed to be a weakness by using sentries. With a dronebay nerf people would have to think twice before abandoning drones and deploying new as they will have 1 less chance of doing this.


As for the tempest then I think a 8/4/7 layout will jsut make it all worse. You will remove the shield tempest from the eqation and armour tempest will lose utility and get slightly more dps in return. However it will not adress the problem that the tempest in practice only has 1 bonus thus lacking a bonus to help it apply it's already low dps. What I suggest is leave the slot layout as it is and then roll the damage bonus into one and give it a falloff or tracking bonus.

Right now it has 10 effecttive turrets with the 25% dmg increase and 25% RoF. With a 50% dmg increase it will have 9 effective turrets which is a bit low imo. With 37.5% RoF bonus it will end up at 9.6 effective turrets.

โค๏ธ๏ธ๐Ÿ’›๐Ÿ’š๐Ÿ’™๐Ÿ’œ
Ripard Teg
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#119 - 2014-07-29 15:34:08 UTC
Do you feel like 10m/s is enough for the Eagle? Today, on MWD an Eagle is 150m/s slower than a heavily plated Deimos and 200+ m/s slower than the longer range Cerberus.

Even with this +10m/s, you are only giving Eagle pilots one viable fit and in doing so reducing player choice.

aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
Azure Rayl
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#120 - 2014-07-29 15:35:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Azure Rayl
No drone bay for the Zealot, its so underpowered its not funny :( and the ishtar is still op as hell, how can you not see this?