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Why does it cost ISK to Research and Manufacture in the POS?

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Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#121 - 2014-07-28 15:15:38 UTC
Inzax wrote:
Tried paying with paddleball's. Little devils didn't go for it.

http://youtu.be/to9kPkMPmiA


Mine is defective.
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#122 - 2014-07-28 16:55:21 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Oh, and as to the "this extra cost hurts me", that should cancel out economically, because everyone's paying the same extra cost in a given location so prices ought to rise accordingly.


So you are artificially creating inflation, forcing consumers to grind more ISK in order to pay for stuff and devaluing ISK in the process...



HE is not creating inflation because he is REMOVING isk from the market. The reduced ammount of isk will make isk more valuable. That specific job might become more expensive, but somewhere int he economy that price will be paid and no inflation will be generated.


You seem to misunderstand what people mean when they say things like "EVE needs more ISK sinks".

They mean that someone else's ISK should be sunk, not theirs.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#123 - 2014-07-28 16:56:00 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Just woken up so not reading the whole thread (I know, I'm awful), but:

Ultimately, you're paying fees in your starbase because that's the balance tradeoff for unlimited slots for everyone. If we take slots away we need some form of substitute (pseudo-)scarcity so that everyone in the universe doesn't just build in Jita 4-4, which would be bad for various reasons but primarily because it removes a whole lot of interesting decisions and makes the rest of the map an industrial wasteland, which is not a thing we want. We felt that scaling fees were a good solution to this, as fees were already a thing (even though they were essentially irrelevant) and because ISK is kinda the nexus of decision-making for serious industrialists. If we're going to use fees, we pretty much have to apply them everywhere, including starbases because they scale too well otherwise and we don't want to re-add pseudo-slots to stop them from being too powerful.

The lore reason is just something to the effect that (Abraxas has the real version, if I was in the office I could look it up but I'm not) CONCORD has stopped paying worker costs for capsuleer industrialists, so now you have to pay them instead. We deliberately talk in terms of workforce fees to try and reduce the cognitive dissonance of "why do I have to pay in my starbase" and "why is it the same all over the system", but obviously it's am imperfect fix.

We totally understand why people are having this reaction, though - it's your tower, why are you having to pay extra? - and it's probably an area of the design that could be adjusted to give a better result, but not obviously without trading off against reduced ease-of-use. We could, f.ex, require "workers" to be put into labs and assembly arrays as fuel, which are purchased for ISK, so you're not paying money on the job but you are paying the equivalent amount on the back end... but then you have more fuel to haul around and people generally hate doing that. Swings and roundabouts.


Oh, and as to the "this extra cost hurts me", that should cancel out economically, because everyone's paying the same extra cost in a given location so prices ought to rise accordingly.


Anyway, like I said, just got up, trying to help, may be some crazy in the above I'm not spotting currently, sorry :)


What a joke.
You had a system that worked for years and years.
Then , about 18 months ago, we start hearing the whining from the cartel propagandists, specifically from malcanis and mynnna, about how unfair manufacturing slots were to poor, destitute null sec.

Lo and behold, we now have this mess.



I'm manufacturing very cheap tin foil hats at my POS in a desolate system, you want to buy some?


yuo keep undercutting me!

Running locators now ... Blink

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Christina Project
Screaming Head in a Box.
#124 - 2014-07-28 17:02:00 UTC
Velicitia! Hi! :D

[i]"Don't look into another human's bowl to see how much he has ... ... look into his bowl to see if he has enough !" - Sol[/i]
Velicitia
XS Tech
#125 - 2014-07-28 17:05:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

What are your assumed goals for cost balancing here?

To give new players and players who are starting industry now (after the industrial expansion) a fair chance to be competitive compared to players who already have researched BPOs by achieving that through industry gameplay without having to buy already researched BPOs from contracts (like it was the case with T2 BPOs for about 5 years). Nothing more, nothing less.

The balancing and number tweaking should be done while the developer's work on industry is still fresh and not to be delayed 5 years like it was done with T2 BPOs.

The price should be there, but not measured in multiple hundreds of millions for a single research point and billions for the whole research process. Significant time increase shouldn't be there either.


Ok, so that's probably where we're having a disconnect here. The primary goal I've had for blueprint research pricing is to try and push closer towards a place where at least the higher levels are a non-trivial decision for players likely to be using them about whether you want to research them or not, rather than simply "does it yield a benefit? -> if yes I should research it". From that perspective, prices high enough that people say "wait, how much?" ...



Fixed that link for you Greyscale Blink

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#126 - 2014-07-28 17:26:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:

But that's just it: no-one would really lose any ME levels on their BPOs because for the most part, they're the same. For the vast majority, they'd gain levels. Even for trivial stuff — T2 components and the like, where the time to perfect was really really short — a direct translation of research time would pretty much guarantee that anyone with even a slightly researched blueprint ended up with perfect ones.


You seem to have serious problems with basic maths.

We would be converting research time, so the 2 months researched into that ME2 BPO CONVERTED into ME7 would again be a BPO with 2 months of research time invested. Due to the nonlinearity that would probably be somewhere around ME 3-4 (depending on the new research time multiplier vs. old research time/lvl) but not likely ME7.

That discrepancy should be even higher for those 5+1->10 converts.
Lister Dax
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2014-07-28 21:54:52 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Lister Dax wrote:
Joseph Soprano wrote:

My guess is you'll probably use some backwater system with no stations. Anyway gl with that.

You keep thinking that then kiddo. Meanwhile my alt will carry on with busy-work in a POS, in a factory-less system a handful of jumps from a trade hub.....

Ix-nay on the ecret-say auce-say. P


Sorry, me and my big mouth Lol
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#128 - 2014-07-28 22:26:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
You seem to have serious problems with basic maths.
You seem to have serious problems understanding the new industry system

Quote:
We would be converting research time, so the 2 months researched into that ME2 BPO CONVERTED into ME7 would again be a BPO with 2 months of research time invested.
…in other words, it would actually become ME8 + change — much more than before and more than the Crius conversion method provided, since you can get very high MEs very quickly now compared to before.

And that's if we go by the (incorrect) assumption that it was one month per ME under the old system. It wasn't. It was 44½ days. ME2 means we slogged through 89 days — nearly three months — so we're getting awfully close to ME9. Now go back and look at that ME 8 research screen again. Note how it says 46d17h? That means that a pre-patch ME1 would just be two days short of a post-patch ME8 if you wanted to translate the research time 1:1. And as you can see, the costs for this research are out of this woooooorld. Or not.

So if the idea behind 1:1 time conversion was to give people lower MEs than the method applied for Crius, it has failed spectacularly.

Oh, and…
Quote:
Due to the nonlinearity that would probably be somewhere around ME 3-4 (depending on the new research time multiplier vs. old research time/lvl) but not likely ME7.
In order to be converted to ME 3–4 in a 1:1 conversion, it would have had to have somewhere between ME 0.014 and ME 0.03 under the old system. It currently takes 15 hours to get a Moros to ME3 and 35 hours to get it to ME 4.
Anthar Thebess
#129 - 2014-07-28 22:40:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Just woken up so not reading the whole thread (I know, I'm awful), but:

Ultimately, you're paying fees in your starbase because that's the balance tradeoff for unlimited slots for everyone. If we take slots away we need some form of substitute (pseudo-)scarcity so that everyone in the universe doesn't just build in Jita 4-4, which would be bad for various reasons but primarily because it removes a whole lot of interesting decisions and makes the rest of the map an industrial wasteland, which is not a thing we want. We felt that scaling fees were a good solution to this, as fees were already a thing (even though they were essentially irrelevant) and because ISK is kinda the nexus of decision-making for serious industrialists. If we're going to use fees, we pretty much have to apply them everywhere, including starbases because they scale too well otherwise and we don't want to re-add pseudo-slots to stop them from being too powerful.

The lore reason is just something to the effect that (Abraxas has the real version, if I was in the office I could look it up but I'm not) CONCORD has stopped paying worker costs for capsuleer industrialists, so now you have to pay them instead. We deliberately talk in terms of workforce fees to try and reduce the cognitive dissonance of "why do I have to pay in my starbase" and "why is it the same all over the system", but obviously it's am imperfect fix.

We totally understand why people are having this reaction, though - it's your tower, why are you having to pay extra? - and it's probably an area of the design that could be adjusted to give a better result, but not obviously without trading off against reduced ease-of-use. We could, f.ex, require "workers" to be put into labs and assembly arrays as fuel, which are purchased for ISK, so you're not paying money on the job but you are paying the equivalent amount on the back end... but then you have more fuel to haul around and people generally hate doing that. Swings and roundabouts.


Oh, and as to the "this extra cost hurts me", that should cancel out economically, because everyone's paying the same extra cost in a given location so prices ought to rise accordingly.


Anyway, like I said, just got up, trying to help, may be some crazy in the above I'm not spotting currently, sorry :)


But people in Stain use mindless Sansha minions - they work for free!
To the grater glory of their leader , and capsulers that support him.
Why we cannot pay in slaves , that will join sansha collective?

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Rena Emishi
Doomheim
#130 - 2014-07-28 22:53:17 UTC
OP is right. Make it consume the equivalent in refined ice.

_Valar Morghulis, Valar Dohaeris _
Phoenix Czech
AZ Solutions CZ
#131 - 2014-07-29 08:04:28 UTC
Hey people what are you all tallking here about? We all know that there was two big mistakes in Crius expansion. First of them was unbalanced extra taxation cost for POSes and second of them is insane prices of capital BPO research.

CCP is making all these things because of one reason - sell more PLEXes. Noone care about gameplay or players........

Complaints will only give CCP confirmation, that it was good move - they will probably sell more PLEXes.

It is easy solutions here. Stop manufacturing. Stop research. Offline your posses. Freeze you accounts. More people do this - bigger impact it will have to economy. If CCP see, that numbers are falling, they finaly realize - something is wrong. Than they fix it - not if people will talk only.

I checked market today - Jita trade of tritanium is at half numbers as before Crius. And it is just the begining I guess.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#132 - 2014-07-29 08:10:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:
You seem to have serious problems understanding the new industry system


Apparently. If so i apologize.
I was going by the years of research time for ME10 people claimed to see and the billions of ISK and extrapolating from that.

(No option to install Sisi due to limited bandwidth :( )

Quote:
In order to be converted to ME 3–4 in a 1:1 conversion, it would have had to have somewhere between ME 0.014 and ME 0.03 under the old system. It currently takes 15 hours to get a Moros to ME3 and 35 hours to get it to ME 4.


So, is the dreadnought BPO an exception because its multiplier is so low or is that the general situation?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#133 - 2014-07-29 10:32:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Apparently. If so i apologize.
I was going by the years of research time for ME10 people claimed to see and the billions of ISK and extrapolating from that.
That's ok. My guess is that they took the most outrageous BPOs they could think of and stuck them into inefficient (NPC) facilities on sisi that used rather random industry indices, or that they tried to do the math on paper and got it wrong. Picking the right system to do your resaerch in can change the cost by orders of magnitude.

Extrapolation probably also was a part of it: the BPO ranks we ended up with have been quite heavily adjusted from what was originally said (a titan was supposed to have rank 3414 — it looks more like 598 on TQ) so anything based on the old values and the initially proposed ranks will be off by a large margin.

The prediction probably also missed all the speed bonuses we'd get in Crius: massively increased skill bonuses, facility bonuses, team bonuses. They've more than halved the time compared to the base values everyone were looking at.

Quote:
So, is the dreadnought BPO an exception because its multiplier is so low or is that the general situation?

The dreadnought is a decently nasty BPO. As far as I can tell, the order is Titan (rank ~600) > Supercarrier (rank ~400) > Dread, Freighter, Carrier (rank ~200). Once you get into titan territory, yes, you are looking at very long research times, but they're (by far) an anomaly in the matter.

The general rule of thumb is that BPOs work like skills — hell, the research time formula is pretty much copy-pasted directly from the SP requirement formula, with a tiny modifier to account for the 10 levels of research as opposed to the 5 skill levels and some additional rounding:
t ≈ 2^(2.5 × ((level / 2) -1)) × 250 × rank.

So we see the same pattern as with skills: the first couple of levels is silly quick and it's not until we get into the upper 20% that any real slowdown occurs. Even with a titan BPO's massive rank, you can get it to ME6 in a month (and ME6 being the equivalent of a lvl III skill). That's why the ME3–4 on the Dread BPO are done in a matter of days — it's the research equivalent of getting a skill to II, which is nothing.

All of this also means that we now have a very handy rule of thumb for how much research you want to put into a BPO. With skills, the general rule is “any skill worth training is worth training to IV”; with BPOs we just translate that level into research levels: “any BPO worth researching is worth researching to 8 (or even 9)”, and just like the final fifth skill level is an awful lot of extra training for marginal (often questionable) benefits, the final tenth ME level is an awful lot of extra research for marginal (often questionable) benefits. Hell, teams even provide us with an analogue to implants: instead of training Rapid Firing to V, you use your wallet and slot in a rate-of-fire implant; instead of researching a BPO to ME10, you use your wallet and slot in a +1% ME team.
Budrick3
Moira.
#134 - 2014-07-29 17:13:54 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Mason Antilles wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Just woken up so not reading the whole thread (I know, I'm awful), but:

Ultimately, you're paying fees in your starbase because that's the balance tradeoff for unlimited slots for everyone. If we take slots away we need some form of substitute (pseudo-)scarcity so that everyone in the universe doesn't just build in Jita 4-4, which would be bad for various reasons but primarily because it removes a whole lot of interesting decisions and makes the rest of the map an industrial wasteland, which is not a thing we want. We felt that scaling fees were a good solution to this, as fees were already a thing (even though they were essentially irrelevant) and because ISK is kinda the nexus of decision-making for serious industrialists. If we're going to use fees, we pretty much have to apply them everywhere, including starbases because they scale too well otherwise and we don't want to re-add pseudo-slots to stop them from being too powerful.

The lore reason is just something to the effect that (Abraxas has the real version, if I was in the office I could look it up but I'm not) CONCORD has stopped paying worker costs for capsuleer industrialists, so now you have to pay them instead. We deliberately talk in terms of workforce fees to try and reduce the cognitive dissonance of "why do I have to pay in my starbase" and "why is it the same all over the system", but obviously it's am imperfect fix.

We totally understand why people are having this reaction, though - it's your tower, why are you having to pay extra? - and it's probably an area of the design that could be adjusted to give a better result, but not obviously without trading off against reduced ease-of-use. We could, f.ex, require "workers" to be put into labs and assembly arrays as fuel, which are purchased for ISK, so you're not paying money on the job but you are paying the equivalent amount on the back end... but then you have more fuel to haul around and people generally hate doing that. Swings and roundabouts.


Oh, and as to the "this extra cost hurts me", that should cancel out economically, because everyone's paying the same extra cost in a given location so prices ought to rise accordingly.


Anyway, like I said, just got up, trying to help, may be some crazy in the above I'm not spotting currently, sorry :)


Giving you the benefit of the doubt 'cause you just woke up, but the op wasnt about having to pay isk to manufacture at a pos(at least primarily). The complaint was about that isk having to come from the corp wallet he doesnt have access to.


Oh, right, sorry. We're adding a "pay from personal wallet" option ASAP :)

Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Oh, and as to the "this extra cost hurts me", that should cancel out economically, because everyone's paying the same extra cost in a given location so prices ought to rise accordingly.


So you are artificially creating inflation, forcing consumers to grind more ISK in order to pay for stuff and devaluing ISK in the process... and all that is accomplished not with player actions, but with bad balancing of the new game mechanics. I'm not saying there shouldn't be taxes, I'm saying that there shouldn't be insane taxes of hundreds of millions of ISK just to research a blueprint (and this is measured in an uncontested/empty system - these are minimal prices... average prices are measured in billions for a single blueprint). It looks and feels like Incarna has been zombified.

Another thing worth mentioning is a perfect combo of significant research time increase (for capitals it's measured in months) and significant copy time decrease, which tremendously helps players (or entities) with collections of already researched blueprints over players who are starting to venture into industry. It would be interesting to see some statistics of which entities hold the most of researched (especially capital) BPOs, because I smell favoritism.

Basically, with this expansion you have revived three of the biggest mistakes you made in the past:

  1. Prices utterly disconnected with reality
  2. T2 BPO fiasco... What? Are you going to pull the old "Buy it from the market" mumbo-jumbo for researched BPOs now? Aren't players supposed to discover what game has to offer in a natural way - by buying the BPOs from NPCs like we did for the last decade and actually researching them without being heavily penalized and investing months more in research than the current BPO holders? And all that happens while the current researched BPO holders can print copies faster than ever.
  3. Potential player favoritism, but that one should hang in the air without being confirmed until you publish the actual statistics. It sure looks like favoritism.


I'm not saying that the new system is inherently bad, I'm saying that you failed miserably in the balancing department.


What are your assumed goals for cost balancing here?

Picking favorites among our customers is utterly uninteresting to me and not worth my time discussing, you can hang it in the air all you like but I'm not picking it up Smile


When are you adding the pay from personal wallet. I was hoping it would be in this recent patch, but unfortunately this is not the case.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#135 - 2014-07-29 17:18:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Phoenix Czech wrote:
I checked market today - Jita trade of tritanium is at half numbers as before Crius. And it is just the begining I guess.

Yeah, nullsec doesn't compress trit anymore for use. Crius changes.

Sell us ore instead, thanks. "And it is just the begining I guess."

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?