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New industry skills discussion (connected to Advanced Industry)

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Roo Gryphon
Wildly Inappropriate
Wildly Inappropriate.
#41 - 2014-07-24 05:19:12 UTC
Opertone wrote:
hmmm, as an economist with factory experience

unfinished production, "work in progress"

ability to start a new production without some of the required materials???

when you get all the needed 'input' you can add it later to the job, which may sit at 80% completion, depending on how much stuff is missing, this way you may save time required for long jobs, while you wait for your components to arrive.


ability to control wastage over time efficiency??

"production efficiency?'

you can speed things up proportionally to increasing the wastage factor, spend more minerals but get your ammunition produced faster. Save some, but job takes a lot longer.


Fine refinement control,

Refining and reprocessing jobs will take time afaik . You may speed things up by 50% when you give up precious and hard to recover trace materials, such as megacyte, morphite, which usually make up 1-2% anyway.

Non stop production cycle

You can produce something without the hassle of manually resetting the jobs, example - ammuniton.

With this skill you can setup extra continuous jobs.

"Production espionage"
You will be able to actually see what sort of things are produced by others, with more detail and station, system, region wide...

Some ideas which you may not like, do not blame me


This....
Winthorp
#42 - 2014-07-24 05:25:05 UTC
Wrecked Reverse engineering.

- Provides a buff to the % chance of returning a successful job when reverse engineering from a Wrecked item.

(No one in their right mind reverse engineers from a wrecked item when the success rate and yeild is so low compared to malfunctioning and intact. End result to make them useful)
Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
#43 - 2014-07-24 05:49:45 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
Wrecked Reverse engineering.

- Provides a buff to the % chance of returning a successful job when reverse engineering from a Wrecked item.

(No one in their right mind reverse engineers from a wrecked item when the success rate and yeild is so low compared to malfunctioning and intact. End result to make them useful)

That would be a game balance issue, not something that should be included as a skill.

Anyway, I don't know if it's low, but I've been getting 33% success rate out of wrecked hulls for a while.
Winthorp
#44 - 2014-07-24 05:51:46 UTC
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
Wrecked Reverse engineering.

- Provides a buff to the % chance of returning a successful job when reverse engineering from a Wrecked item.

(No one in their right mind reverse engineers from a wrecked item when the success rate and yeild is so low compared to malfunctioning and intact. End result to make them useful)

That would be a game balance issue, not something that should be included as a skill.

Anyway, I don't know if it's low, but I've been getting 33% success rate out of wrecked hulls for a while.


Yes but the cost versus reward ratio for paying for data interface is not worth your time.
Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
#45 - 2014-07-24 05:54:20 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
Wrecked Reverse engineering.

- Provides a buff to the % chance of returning a successful job when reverse engineering from a Wrecked item.

(No one in their right mind reverse engineers from a wrecked item when the success rate and yeild is so low compared to malfunctioning and intact. End result to make them useful)

That would be a game balance issue, not something that should be included as a skill.

Anyway, I don't know if it's low, but I've been getting 33% success rate out of wrecked hulls for a while.


Yes but the cost versus reward ratio for paying for data interface is not worth your time.


Could be... I was doing it more as a bonus and to try out T3 building. It brought some profit, but I was not dedicated to the task.
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#46 - 2014-07-24 07:02:10 UTC
Orvmus wrote:
At least refund the SP to players and allow them the ability to choose whether to invest in this new, and in my case completely useless, skill. This change may benefit hardcore Industry players but has absolutely no value to the rest of us who previously had it trained.

I hope you took the removal of this skill in to account when you increased the material costs for everything, prices are going to rise through the roof once the current stocks are depleted - it's as though CCP has zero knowledge when it comes to how Industry works in their own game.



Actually the updated skill going live next week applies (at 5) a modifier to your effective jobs, making 11 slots as effective as 12.65 wich is an unprecedented concession in the industry side of eve.
Eodp Ellecon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2014-07-24 07:10:44 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
"More jobs" is obvious. A somewhat different way of doing that is to have a skill that allows me to have more jobs in the queue, even though I am limited to 11 that are currently active. Think of the skill queue: I can have a dozen or more skills queued up, even though I can only train one at a time. How about having industry jobs the same way? A skill that lets me queue up more than I can have running. As soon as a job finishes, the next drops down out of the queue and begins.

This also makes the TE skill more useful.



This 'cascading' would be useful given our new interface shows needed materials to do a job. If you're short of components, then fire up components and ship build autostarts when component job (auto) completes.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#48 - 2014-07-24 07:14:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Bad Bobby
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The Advanced Industry skill has been updated to give 3%/level reduction to all industry jobs (ie anything you can do in the industry window, not just building); this should be rolled out to TQ in the next week or so.

Nice. Much better than the previous bonus.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
We are therefore planning on adding some more advanced industrial skills with AI at 5 as a prereq, so there's clear benefit to everyone in having it trained (plus it would be nice to have some more skills).

We have to rule out anything that reduces costs, because that would just bring back the same problems the old Production Efficiency skill caused... but worse because it would be even less attainable.

You could add more per character industry slots, but I'm not sure that CCP is in a place where it can afford the resultant reduction in alt accounts.

You could add the ability to delegate your industry slots to another character, in order to reduce the degree to which advanced industrialists have to account switch or multi-box when doing industry. You could have skills that set the number of job slots a character can delegate out and another set of skills that set the number of slots a character can have delegated to them. Not sure if this would be too complex a feature or not.

Maybe you could add a skill that allows us to resize the S&I window by 10% per level too. Big smile

Cekle Skyscales wrote:
Specialization skills that further reduce the time for specific types of jobs by 1% per level

I'd be pretty happy with a selection of those, particularly if the skill books aren't seeded at schools but are added as rare drops instead.
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2014-07-24 08:43:21 UTC
Thank you very much for the 3% per level for this skill - I think it's a good compromise.

For new skills, perhaps the theme can be "time". I support some ideas mentioned already, since some of the higher rank research times have gotten a little ridiculous:

Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:

Advanced Science: 2% reduced copy time per level, requires Science V and Advanced Industry V, rank 5, int/mem.

Advanced Research: 2% reduced TE research time per level, requires Research V and Advanced Industry V, rank 5, int/mem.

Advanced Metallurgy: 2% reduced ME research time per level, requires Metallurgy V and Advanced Industry V, rank 5, int/mem.

Tinkering: 3% reduced invention job time per level, requires Science V, Jury Rigging V, and Advanced Industry V, rank 5, int/mem.


One more suggestion: Increase in the amount of time a team will be in system. 5% per level, giving a max of 25% additional time one has teams for.
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#50 - 2014-07-24 08:53:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarisen Gream
So happy I found this thread! I had another post, but decided that I would edit over it. . .

1: We DO NOT need any more skills that reduce ME/TE from items.
2: We DO need things that let us specialize more in to different types of production. . .

With the way Crius seems to be going and how it has effected everything I feel it did a wonderful job with all of the research side of things.

What we need now is a way to specialize our industry and take a niche in the market. I have in my corp people who make T2 ships and a few other types of items. They have access to materials I don't, unless I buy them off the market which means additional cost. This makes it harder for me to compete against them.

-- Skill ideas --
Copy Right Infringement - Allows a +1 run on Factional BPCs per level. i.e. This would allow additional runs on BPCs bought from LP stores or picked up from rats that are faction/pirate based BPCs. This would make it so when you got to make run a BPC with say one run, you can get up to six runs. If you only run one run, you used the BPC. Any use of the BPC consumes the BPC. This can help get some of the newer ships out into the market ether faster and drop their price. . . or it can see people making more and holding on to them to force the price up. . . b/c people will start charging more for the BPC.

Industrial Hardiness - Do to are understanding of manufactured components and their "true" thrush hold, pilots can get a little more out of their ships +1% (maybe +0.25%) per level to the effectiveness of Industrial ships. (Effects Agility, PG, CPU etc. Not cargo space, etc).

--Things to help us specialize--
T1 specialization skills that allow players to produce different meta goods by chance. 5% per level
T2 specialization skills that allow players to produce officer grade by chance. 1% per level

With the above it would need to be broken down in a way that there would be skills for the different types of ships, modules, etc.
A player who focuses on T2 production will love the chance to get an officer grade item. A T1 production person would love the chance to get Meta 2-4 goods, mostly meta 4s.

-- Advanced Industry skills that effect other skills.
Like the Industrial Hardiness skill to effect industrial hulls, maybe racial skills that give us just a little extra juice from ships and modules.

-- Hybrid skills --
By this I mean skills that require AI but might be a social skill or a based in PI... or Corporation skills or Leadership skills.
Take the current anchoring skill and add a sub bonus based on the AI. That would reduce the anchoring/on-lining/off-lining of player structures.
Corporation management skill would have a sub bonus to reducing tax or something.
Connections would have a sub bonus that as you use Industry, you can gain standing with the NPC corporation.

***We don't really need new skills to compete with our current queue times and development. We need ways to boost the skills we already have through the specialization/job we choose to follow.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Sigras
Conglomo
#51 - 2014-07-24 09:02:24 UTC
I had an idea to introduce divisions of labor into the game a while ago... This would provide the same specialized training that is currently in the combat training to industry as well.

The Idea
add a few dozen skills for industry to give a bonus to specific things.

Examples:
T2 Construction - 2% reduction in T2 manufacturing time per level
T2 Construction Specialization - 1% reduction per skill level to the material requirements needed for T2 production (requires T2 Construction level 5)
Starship Construction - 2% reduction in manufacturing time of starships per skill level.
Battleship Construction Specialization - 1% reduction per skill level to the material requirements needed for battleship production (requires starship construction level 5)
Cruiser Construction Specialization - 1% reduction per skill level to the material requirements needed for cruiser production (requires starship construction level 5)
Gallente Construction - 2% reduction in manufacturing time of Gallente products per skill level.
Gallente Construction Specialization - 1% reduction per skill level to the material requirements needed for Gallente products (gallente ships, ammo, components, blasters, etc) per skill level. (requires Gallente Construction level 5)
Module Construction - 1% reduction per skill level to the material requirements needed for module production
Ammo Construction - 1% reduction per skill level to the material requirements needed for ammo production

You may notice that many of these skills overlap and that is intentional. That way, if you're building a Kronos, that build is effected by Starship Construction, Battleship Construction Specialization, Gallente Construction and its specialization, and T2 construction and its specialization.

All of these bonuses can stack to give you quite a huge savings if you specialize in producing one specific thing, but the days of having one character who can perfectly manufacture all the things would be over. (or at least > 5 years off)

Right now I can start a new alt and have him learn to perfectly manufacture 90% of the items in game in two weeks. I could give him mass production from range in less than two months, and then I would have an alt that "does manufacturing"

It seems ridiculous to me to train for a month or two and say "ok I've mastered that part of the game now what?"

The Effects
The current manufacturers in the game will begin to train the new skills. Prices wont rise on anything as nobody suddenly got worse at manufacturing, but people would start training to manufacture specific things. They would be able to increase their margins in those items over unspecialized people.

Thoughts?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#52 - 2014-07-24 09:08:21 UTC
Sigras wrote:

Thoughts?


Quote:
...its current form is a huge accessibility problem for industry...
(#157)

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#53 - 2014-07-24 09:31:08 UTC
I think an extra of 15% time reduction is a good deal of oomf as it is.

As of right now, specialization between research and manufacturing is very possible. As in, there is little to no overlap between manufacturing skills, and invention/ME/TE skills. You can train up a perfect 10-slot inventor that can't even come close to manufacturing his products, and you can train up a perfect 10-slot manufacturer that can't even come close to inventing his blueprints. Reverse Engineering sits in its own little corner, but that's just how Reverse Engineering does things.

Long story short, I would hesitate to tack bonuses to invention/ME/TE onto a manufacturing skill. Same with anything that affects job install costs as a whole, since again, that makes Advanced Industry something you'd always be getting on both your invention/ME/TE alts and your manufacturing alts.
Reprocessing and Teams bonuses I dislike for another reason: you only need to train them on one character, and bam, you've got 100% of the benefits across every single one of your characters. The scaling is a bit strong on that.

Which puts me on the spot to come up with something original, since I just called pretty much every idea in this bad. My creative juices aren't flowing this morning at all, but as a compromise, I do absolutely love this suggestion:
Bad Bobby wrote:
Maybe you could add a skill that allows us to resize the S&I window by 10% per level too. Big smile
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#54 - 2014-07-24 09:50:52 UTC
Also need Industrial Tycoon.

This skill does nothing but show how awesome you are at sitting and staring at a bulking and pretty industrial window.

SP Gained from having Industrial UI open.

--sorry needed a little fun--

On a more clear thought

Industrial hardiness +1% effectiveness to all industrial hulls per level. Needs some polish to the idea, and limits to say in space stuff, not roles or bonuses.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#55 - 2014-07-24 10:31:49 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
When you are adding new industry skills, you should do something to make Battleship Construction V have a use (along with Industrial Construction V, which I believe is also useless).


Reasonable.


NEONOVUS wrote:
So clarifying, material requirement reductions are looked down upon?


Generally speaking, cost reductions can be considered as having a lower probability of being implemented, all other things being equal. Ditto anything which requires significant feature work (eg queueing - that's a feature with a skill attached, not a skill modifying an existing number).

Sentient Blade wrote:
Specialist Recovery - 10% per level recovery of input materials when cancelling a job.


Erutpar Ambient wrote:
-Self Sufficient: Reduce the impact your jobs have on the system by 5%



These are very cool. More stuff like this, to change variables you don't normally think of, are of great interest to us :)
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-07-24 11:18:15 UTC
Mad Scientist - x% chance per level that an invention job produces a faction BPC
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#57 - 2014-07-24 12:16:34 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:

Thank ya sir!

Maybe if they like this idea they'll take some of my other ideas more seriously. :)

What do you mean "your idea?" :P
Nina Smirnoff
Air Traffic Control
#58 - 2014-07-24 12:30:16 UTC
First, 3%/level is a lot! Too much supply increase without any demand change..... 2% would be enough, imho.

Secobd, some random ideas:

I would love to see bonus to 3 kinds of 'specializations' or 3 kind of industrialists:
-The nomad industrialist (people that like to do it cheap, always moving to the lowest index system)
- The hermit (people that like to do it alone in a dark corner, they set home on a system and stay there).
- Team Member (people that like to do it with others, like big manufacturing corporations)

"Nomad" skills:
The general idea is: help it move and abuse the low install cost.
- Improved Workforce: "X% ME/Level + Y% increase install cost/level"
ME bonus but a heavy install penalty. My first idea was -0.5%ME and 20%install cost increase.
- Improved Anchoring: "Decrease anchoring time by X%/level"
Moving is boring and slow. People need support skill do to it faster. 10% per level sounds good.
-Improved Structure Packing: "Reduce POS' and POS Modules' volume by X%/level"
I thought about a cargohold bonus, but that would be too generic. A bonus just to transport pos and pos modules sounds inoffensive.

"Hermit" skills:
The general idea is: improve his system or make it more dificult to other peoples to move in
- "Self Suficient: Reduce the impact your jobs have on system by 5%" ( by Erutpar)
I like this idea, but I think number should be greater. Its a tricky skill. If everyone trains it, it becomes useless.
- Micro Management: "Increase team bonus by X% and reduce it's salary by Y% if noone is using it"
Checked on install time only.


"Team Member" skills:
The general idea: improve working with your corp and reduce the penalty to work in the same system.
- Shared Workforce:"X% discount on install job for every other corp job on the system"
Of course you need a cap on the maximum discount (30%?). X could be a small number like 0.1%...
Celor Ma'fer
Jouhinen Inc
#59 - 2014-07-24 12:37:49 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
Erutpar Ambient wrote:

Thank ya sir!

Maybe if they like this idea they'll take some of my other ideas more seriously. :)

What do you mean "your idea?" :P


Obviously someone who doesn't read, even small, threads before posting.

The only issue I can see arising from this is the fact that it does apply to everyone in the system. Which means that all the Industrialists that work in the same system as you do benefit from your skills, even if they don't train them themselves. If the skill could be somehow made to reduce the SCI just for your character, then that would be perfect.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2014-07-24 12:52:51 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
When you are adding new industry skills, you should do something to make Battleship Construction V have a use (along with Industrial Construction V, which I believe is also useless).


Reasonable.

I think these skills would be well suited for a 2% reduction in production time.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.