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Material Efficiency skill changed to Advanced Industry

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Bitter Fremlin
Heimatar Enhanced Fleet Industries
#421 - 2014-07-22 16:19:35 UTC
Summer Isle wrote:
Saving 5% on a pack of chips at the store is pretty meaningless, especially if you only get said pack of chips once in a great while. But if you got to save 5% of all of your groceries, the savings are significantly higher more worth it.

But if the only thing you buy, or ever want to buy, at that store is chips then it is back to being pretty meaningless.

You're talking like every single ME5-ed Industrialist is also a fully-qualified Research Scientist who already keeps all their Manufacturing and Lab slots busy 24/7/365. It may be worth it for them, but for us mere mortals it just means more downtime between jobs.
Sjaandi HyShan
Overheated Industries
#422 - 2014-07-23 01:46:17 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:

CCP Greyscale wrote:
dislike skillpoint reassignment as the act of reassignment incrementally devalues the perceived value of skillpoints accumulated over time


But refunding SP doesn't devalue SP. If anything, what devalues SP is CCP taking my skillpoints out of a skill that I intentionally chose to train because it was useful to me and putting them into a skill that is literally useless to me. In fact, allowing SP reassignment when removing a skill and adding a new one enhances the value of SP earned over time, because I know that if at some point in the future CCP decides to "change" a skill into a completely different one I'll still be able to get some use out of those SP by putting them into something useful for me.

I agree that refunding SP when making changes to skills is a bad idea in general. But there's no precedent for this big of a change to skills without refunds. All of the other skill changes that have happened since I started playing merely "tweaked" the skills, but they still affected the same aspects of the game. This isn't a skill change...it's a skill removal because a feature no longer exists, similar to the learning skills, combined with a skill addition, and forcing people to get the new skill at level 5 even if they don't want it.


I agree with the above part of the comment. Roll


Idea That being said, however, since new Advanced Industry skills are being planned, how about changing the idea of Industry->Advanced Industry->New Skills (which is already a medium train ~13 days to unlock new skills, with the first two maybe being useful compared to the unlockable ones), Advanced Industry is instead split into the new ones and let the players decide which one to have at V? I'm not sure if this is feasible technically, but this would allow the new (to-be-discussed-bonused) skills to have less prereqs, allow players to train the one they want, and give a good way to introduce Advanced Industry, Team Connections or Invention PrecisionBlink, for example.
Angela Channing
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#423 - 2014-07-23 03:52:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Angela Channing
x
afkboss
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#424 - 2014-07-23 05:44:52 UTC
"devalues the perceived value of skillpoints accumulated over time"

This has to be one of the worst things a GM has said ever. You are changing a skill from mandatory to 100% useless and your worried about devaluing skillpoints.

I paid a subscription for those skillpoints and anything less than a refund is CCP ripping off its own customers.
Celor Ma'fer
Jouhinen Inc
#425 - 2014-07-23 10:12:22 UTC
Mr Greyscale.

Have you started a new thread yet about what to do with the Advanced Industry skill and potential additional skills? I cannot see one, so could you either tell me which forum to start it in or link to one you have started please?
Kivena
EVE University
Ivy League
#426 - 2014-07-23 11:14:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kivena
Disregard, I suck at reading threads.Roll

Director of Communications EVE University

Follow me on Twitter: @eveKivena
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#427 - 2014-07-23 12:58:52 UTC
Celor Ma'fer wrote:
Mr Greyscale.

Have you started a new thread yet about what to do with the Advanced Industry skill and potential additional skills? I cannot see one, so could you either tell me which forum to start it in or link to one you have started please?


Not yet, it's on my to-do list for today :)
Celor Ma'fer
Jouhinen Inc
#428 - 2014-07-23 13:08:47 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Celor Ma'fer wrote:
Mr Greyscale.

Have you started a new thread yet about what to do with the Advanced Industry skill and potential additional skills? I cannot see one, so could you either tell me which forum to start it in or link to one you have started please?


Not yet, it's on my to-do list for today :)



OK ta
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#429 - 2014-07-23 15:44:57 UTC
Just implementing the changes to advanced industry now, is 3%/level sufficient? I'm wary of making the bonus too big as we're essentially speeding up *everything* here, at least where it's throughput-limited rather than playtime-limited.
Celor Ma'fer
Jouhinen Inc
#430 - 2014-07-23 15:49:25 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Just implementing the changes to advanced industry now, is 3%/level sufficient? I'm wary of making the bonus too big as we're essentially speeding up *everything* here, at least where it's throughput-limited rather than playtime-limited.


I would be happy with that.

And an official thread once this goes out would be good to discuss what to do in the future. Thanks a lot
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#431 - 2014-07-23 15:59:16 UTC
Celor Ma'fer wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Just implementing the changes to advanced industry now, is 3%/level sufficient? I'm wary of making the bonus too big as we're essentially speeding up *everything* here, at least where it's throughput-limited rather than playtime-limited.


I would be happy with that.

And an official thread once this goes out would be good to discuss what to do in the future. Thanks a lot


Yup, I'll make a "future" thread as soon as I've got this skill working.
Kora Ethereal
Ethereal Beings
#432 - 2014-07-23 16:34:46 UTC
Just spitballing here, but the New Teams thing seems pretty useful, what if the skill or a new skill acted as a multiplier or a bonus to what efficiency and time requirements the usage of a team would get you? This would literally more bang for your buck when bidding and utilizes the brand new feature. Another skill Could lower the costs associated with bidding for a team (I.E. Artificially inflating bids or generally making their use cost less somehow).

Remember these are just Ideas. I'm liking the changes to industry, just not the sudden loss of my old ME bonus on my indy. Cool to see some progress is being made
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#433 - 2014-07-23 16:39:35 UTC
3% per level is sufficient if you're going to back it up with more specialized skills with pre-req V a month down the line.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#434 - 2014-07-23 16:47:11 UTC
Kora Ethereal wrote:
Just spitballing here, but the New Teams thing seems pretty useful, what if the skill or a new skill acted as a multiplier or a bonus to what efficiency and time requirements the usage of a team would get you? This would literally more bang for your buck when bidding and utilizes the brand new feature. Another skill Could lower the costs associated with bidding for a team (I.E. Artificially inflating bids or generally making their use cost less somehow).

Remember these are just Ideas. I'm liking the changes to industry, just not the sudden loss of my old ME bonus on my indy. Cool to see some progress is being made


or reduce the additional cost of hiring team by x% per level?

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Sjaandi HyShan
Overheated Industries
#435 - 2014-07-23 17:28:20 UTC
Mr. Greyscale, can you post a link to the new thread once you've got it going? I'm curious to see what ideas for the new skills players will come up with!
Celor Ma'fer
Jouhinen Inc
#436 - 2014-07-23 17:53:42 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Just implementing the changes to advanced industry now, is 3%/level sufficient? I'm wary of making the bonus too big as we're essentially speeding up *everything* here, at least where it's throughput-limited rather than playtime-limited.


Just a couple of other things? Big smile

When are you aiming to change the skill?

I'm sure they won't but just to clarify, jobs that are already underway will not be affected by the change.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#437 - 2014-07-23 18:05:30 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Greyscale
OK, new skill is set up internally, hoping to ship it next week. And yes, it'll only apply to new jobs. New thread incoming in F&I, will link in a sec.

[edit] https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4834965#post4834965
Celor Ma'fer
Jouhinen Inc
#438 - 2014-07-23 18:19:34 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
OK, new skill is set up internally, hoping to ship it next week. And yes, it'll only apply to new jobs. New thread incoming in F&I, will link in a sec.

[edit] https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4834965#post4834965


I was hoping for a day Blink but next week is fine. Thank you for the replies and the link
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#439 - 2014-07-23 19:49:21 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
OK, new skill is set up internally, hoping to ship it next week. And yes, it'll only apply to new jobs. New thread incoming in F&I, will link in a sec.

[edit] https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4834965#post4834965



Ok, where'd they find you? wait, not allowed to ask that so how about why haven't you assimilated everyone at the office so that things get done with alacrity!

I wouldn't be too worried on the throughput, invention choke starts early enough in the scheme of things it'll hold most everything to pre crius or slower production rates. I wouldn't add another time reducer in the scheme though.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#440 - 2014-07-23 20:37:21 UTC
Thanks for the quick turnaround, but I'm still severely disappointed at how this all turned out. A 300% increase to a useless skill is still useless, and the only consolation we get is that we'll have the opportunity to dump EVEN MORE time into training skills that might maybe possibly (but probably not) help us at some undefined point in the future.

Just so CCP can go and change those skills to do something completely different anyway.