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Crius Feedback

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Author
Viceran Phaedra
Instar Heavy Industries
#221 - 2014-07-23 07:23:55 UTC
First steps taken in reorganising Industry - good effort CCP despite the old code (and somewhat 'precious' playerbase). With more patches and work this'll turn out well. Haven't had a chance to play with everything yet, so reserving judgement, but two small points:

- Can't lock the Industry window, like you can every other window. Consistency is important.

- The new Planetary Interaction window is so small and displays so little, you may as well keep it as a tab in the Industry window. PI is part of industry, after all, and we don't need yet another button to clog our already-full sidebars when it'll slot neatly back in with its parent window.

Otherwise, as mentioned, will have to play with this expansion for a bit to get a feel for things before more can be said. Keep up the effort!

Oh, also I feel this was a missed opportunity to include some great industrial-themed skins for ships and clothes for avatars. Hopefully we'll see some in future patches. Hint hint. ;)

Chief Executive Officer

Instar Heavy Industries

Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#222 - 2014-07-23 08:13:20 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:

If only there was a filter option....

The filter button is absolutely needed too. Not only for BPCs, but for Installations/Systems tab. So you could filter out lowsec/nullsecs, for example, or Systems with load reaching some treshold.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link

OldWolf69
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#223 - 2014-07-23 08:13:35 UTC
Most lovely **** is you have to pay in your OWN pos, also in your OWN space. This beats even Fozzie pretending to improve Battlecruisers. GJ CCP, "per aspera ad astra".LolLolLol
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#224 - 2014-07-23 08:36:08 UTC
Galmalmin wrote:
Galmalmin wrote:
Did I miss, in my lackadaisical reading of these Cirus changes, that I am being charged a TAX at the POS?

I purchased, I transported, I installed, I keep fueled, I purchased modules for, I collect minerals for, I purchase BPO's for, I research BPO's and when I do a production run at that POS, I am charged a TAX? Am I reading that TOTAL JOB COST correctly... that I have to pay unknown entity to run that job?

Galmalmin



I paid tax when I purchased the POS.

I paid tax when I purchased the Charon to haul the POS and Minerals.

I paid tax when I purchase POS fuel.

I paid tax when I purchased POS Modules.

I paid tax when I purchased BPO's.

I pay tax when I refine minerals at a station.

CCP you will be collecting tax when I list the items on the market (agent fees) and you will be collecting tax when the end user purchases the item on the market.

CCP, you need to delete paying tax to run production at the POS.

In few days, we'll be charged with tax to undock, dock, use modules, fly ship, walk in captain HQ ....
Some CCP dev should consider renaming themselves CCP Tax or CCP IskSinks...

EsiPy - Python 2.7 / 3.3+ Swagger Client based on pyswagger for ESI

Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#225 - 2014-07-23 08:49:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Brainless Bimbo
How about when you start a job the line disappears instead of staying and being greyed out., saves space, looks better and stops people going well that´s stupid i have to change location before they go.

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....

iwannadig
Doomheim
#226 - 2014-07-23 09:14:35 UTC
Brainless Bimbo wrote:
How about when you start a job the line disappears instead of staying and being greyed out., saves space, looks better and stops people going well that´s stupid i have to change location before they go.

No. I have a bug on SiSi where copied BPO does not produce BPC, this freeze helped me a lot to make proper screenshot.
Leorajev Aubaris
Blue Goat Ltd.
#227 - 2014-07-23 09:26:46 UTC
I am relatively new to industry and I really like the new interface and the changes.
So much information in one place.
And research is now possible for me, no more waiting weeks until a slot is available.
I don't care much about costs and stuff right now, because I'm doing only small stuff for myself atm.
Keep the improvements going. :) *thumbs up*
Pram Face
Your Hole Our Goal
#228 - 2014-07-23 09:53:38 UTC
Having to use the corp master wallet to manufacture in a pos in daft

Live in a wh and use a pos to make two things, ammo and pos fuel.
Main corp is not in WH
Not a director
Have division 1 access and could manufacture and research previously

Tried making 1 unit ammo. Charge is 6 ISK. However I cannot pay that 6 ISK as I do not have and probably never will have access to the master wallet.

To pay is fine(sort of) but at least let 99% of pos users pay without having the ability to Awox the corp completely



Unless this is fixed fast industry on pos areas will be restricted to corp directors or 1 man corps

I believe that until you can get the jobs to go from player wallet then we may as well give up.

I like most of the changes, however

Cheers

Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#229 - 2014-07-23 09:59:03 UTC
I'm trying to figure out the math here for ME savings. So if I have a BPC/BPO, and lets say all its inputs are low numbers, say less than 20. That would mean I would need at least a 5% ME bonus to get any materials savings, since all fractions are rounded up correct? So 2% from a POS, and 3% from a team?
Ozwald Dragorian
Second Dawn of the Phoenix
Train Wreck.
#230 - 2014-07-23 10:08:17 UTC
I have spent perhaps 1-2 hours with the industrial window now, and my take on it is that it is an improvement to overall control of your industry.

It consolidates all your blueprints that is very useful when you are operating out of different areas in Eve.
It is incredibly quick to set up jobs as well as keep track of missing items in the place where the installation is to be held.

Jobs section is really well done with the timers and the quick 'deliver all jobs'.

I am very happy with the research section as well, and making the components of Reverse Engineering into blueprints was genius.

Teams is something I don't understand yet, I am not even sure it applies to worm space at all?

It loads faster than I was expecting as well, even if you have blueprints in 10 different buildings in different systems. Thumbs up.

What I am missing however is scaling the industrial window, the upper portion is ridiculously big.

I also would like to see a counter for how many of the materials/products you have in the place where the blueprint is being installed. It would enhance your industrial awareness a lot for planning more complex builds that need a lot of different components.

All in all, I am so far quite impressed by it, and I do like the looks and sounds of the interface for one. I think it was a good change, that could do with tweaking of course.
d'Arma Edd
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#231 - 2014-07-23 10:10:41 UTC
Maduin Shi wrote:
I'm trying to figure out the math here for ME savings. So if I have a BPC/BPO, and lets say all its inputs are low numbers, say less than 20. That would mean I would need at least a 5% ME bonus to get any materials savings, since all fractions are rounded up correct? So 2% from a POS, and 3% from a team?

patch notes wrote:
Material Efficiency calculations are now applied to the whole jobs, not individual runs.

If you produce only one item - yes. But if you produce pack of items - you can get benefit from every 1%.
Hasif Ban'tha'ra
Mo'Ta Industries Ltd.
#232 - 2014-07-23 10:20:36 UTC
There seems to be small mistake in new reprocessing tables in patchnotes. Pristine White Glaze shows it yelds 69 Heavy Water and 35 Liquid Ozone (same as for White Glaze) instead what I believe it should be 104 and 55 respectively.
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#233 - 2014-07-23 10:46:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Maduin Shi
My greatest beef with this patch is that its going to drive up ship and fittings costs significantly. The System Cost Index is going ensure that this will happen, because moving industrial activities away from the trade hubs may lower installation job costs but will dramatically increase hauling requirements. Time is also money, and industrialists will not be willing to sell their product for anywhere near pre-patch prices if they have to make hundreds more freighter jumps to build and sell things, along with the taxes and higher job installation costs layered on top.

Eve lives or dies on PvP and player-generated content from PvP - that's the defining characteristic of the game. But unaffordable ships and fittings is really going to hurt PvP activities. This patch really looks to me like Hauling Online. Because that's really what this System Cost Index appears to entail.

And woe to POS owners who have a large manufacturing tower in a busy highsec system. You'll be playing way more Hauling Online than most, because that tower will be coming down. I can't see why, at this point, anyone would want to use a large tower to do any sort of production in highsec and defend it well, because you can spend days worth of game time setting it up only to find that the System Cost Index has changed and you can't do any S&I jobs profitably there anymore. Its going to be all small towers with <24 hour jobs to deal with wardecs, because nobody can control the SCI.

So yeah, Hauling Online instead of affordable PvP. And a huge buff to nullsec industry even though the sov null blocs already wipe their a$$es with ISK. I guess the nerf to JF stats and fuel consumption is the trade-off here, but that can be dealt with using inactive wormhole routes since low class wormhole inhabitants are few and far between these days.

I'm just not getting this patch, outside of trying to create a giant ISK sink and lay it (mostly) on highsec and force everybody to spend more of their precious game time in a hauler. I dunno about the rest of you, but I'm not paying my subscription so that I can stare at stargates all day long and effectively live out of my freighter.
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#234 - 2014-07-23 10:47:01 UTC
d'Arma Edd wrote:
Maduin Shi wrote:
I'm trying to figure out the math here for ME savings. So if I have a BPC/BPO, and lets say all its inputs are low numbers, say less than 20. That would mean I would need at least a 5% ME bonus to get any materials savings, since all fractions are rounded up correct? So 2% from a POS, and 3% from a team?

patch notes wrote:
Material Efficiency calculations are now applied to the whole jobs, not individual runs.

If you produce only one item - yes. But if you produce pack of items - you can get benefit from every 1%.



OK, thanks for that clarification.
Pap Uhotih
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#235 - 2014-07-23 11:03:05 UTC
Probably all already said....

Putting colour bars under ME/PE and the installations doesn’t work at all, it fails to provide information in a meaningful way. For ME/TE it’s animated and that’s gets old quickly, it has no apparent scale (a colour gradient could help) and it is a duplication of the precise and perfectly visible percentages that are the only thing providing ‘at a glance’ information.
For the facilities it took me a bit of scrolling to realise that the red bar was a scale at all and that you were therefore attempting to be consistent. The facilities tab seems a failure as a source of useful information that I can interpret and use. I think I am meant to do something based on the system index cost, but what, there is no explanation as to what the incentives are.

The teams tab is a step into the weird as far as design goes. There is a bar you click called ‘Team Chartering’ and it takes a minute to work out what changes when you click it. When the tab is showing the allocated teams the bar should say ‘Team Auctions’ and when the tab is showing the team auctions the bar should read ‘Allocated Teams’ (or similar).

Staying with the teams tab there is something going on with the team icons that I don’t get – why are they wearing different coloured suites? I’ve been looking at it for a while and it doesn’t seem to be getting more obvious and yet I’m sure it must mean something.
Specialties are a bit odd, there are four pop up lists of things that a team specialises in and they aren’t short lists. It would be impossible to work out what blueprint went with what team if you were simply browsing teams looking for a place to build or whatever it is you do with this information. Perhaps colour coding the blueprints and their speciality would make more sense so a battleship blueprint had a red dot in the corner and the specialty was red – that would be awful but better than trying to remember what belongs to what.

The icons for ME/invention etc. are rubbish. I don’t think you can use two conical flasks, a microscope and the symbol for atomic energy next to each other like that. They could all be interpreted as meaning ‘Science’ and when I think of reverse engineering Chernobyl does not spring to mind. They should be much more meaningful and distinct.
ME has nothing to do with jewellery so it is baffling as to what relevance the diamond has to that. The hour glass for TE makes sense as does the factory for building but diamonds mean nothing.

As contracts weren’t updated they show ME and TE as positive values and not percents at all, I think that looks better. More generally and taking a step back from the specifics of industry or Eve at all, it is really weird to use an objective measured as a percent where the ultimate ‘dream’ target is neither 0% or 100%. Trying to explain someone who does not play Eve that I’m aiming to get things to -10% would make anyone sound mad.
Previously the target was 0% waste and it’s simple to explain to anyone that plays or not why that is a good thing. This is madness, the bodge fix would be to make the percent positive so the sentence ‘Im aiming for plus ten percent material efficiency’ could be used, ‘Im aiming for minus ten percent material efficiency’ is just ****ing stupid.


Overall I think it is poorly considered and executed, the more you more you look the more weird you see. Why not say ‘Total estimated build cost’ and ‘Total estimated sale price’ rather than calling both ‘Total estimated price’ (even better, subtract one from the other and tell me that), it’s as if there is no idea of what an industrialist is trying to achieve by building something.
It is a lot of database spew with some art and that spew has taken priority over presenting useful and usable information to the user. I think with ME in particular its specific meaning in an equation has become all consuming and any thought as to how a new player will intuitively grasp the concepts that are being expressed have gone out of the window – no one has read this interface out loud. I think that is summed up by a CCP employee getting confused to the extent of using World as a filter for teams when they meant Universe.


I find it too confusing to know what the market will do and how much stuff will cost to make, I’m in the market for a third party tool to help me out. There is no purpose in grand statements of quitting as I don’t get the impression that CCP is really that concerned. I don’t think industry is for me at the moment and BPO trading doesn’t make sense anymore. I have to find a new activity to make it worthwhile for me to start the game up; I just can’t see what that will be at the moment.
Narjack
CragCO
#236 - 2014-07-23 11:06:51 UTC
Viceran Phaedra wrote:
First steps taken in reorganising Industry - good effort CCP despite the old code (and somewhat 'precious' playerbase). With more patches and work this'll turn out well. Haven't had a chance to play with everything yet, so reserving judgement, but two small points:

- Can't lock the Industry window, like you can every other window. Consistency is important.

- The new Planetary Interaction window is so small and displays so little, you may as well keep it as a tab in the Industry window. PI is part of industry, after all, and we don't need yet another button to clog our already-full sidebars when it'll slot neatly back in with its parent window.

Otherwise, as mentioned, will have to play with this expansion for a bit to get a feel for things before more can be said. Keep up the effort!

Oh, also I feel this was a missed opportunity to include some great industrial-themed skins for ships and clothes for avatars. Hopefully we'll see some in future patches. Hint hint. ;)


Well, I have a slightly different opinion. I really like the new Planetary Interaction button and window. Its nice and small and I can put it to one side while seeing my planet set ups clearly and click through without yet another window in the way. It also allows me to cycle quickly through all my planets without having to repeatedly open/close it like I used to have to do when it was with the industry window. Had you kept it with the new industry window I don't think I'd be able to see my planet without opening and closing the industry window a bunch of times, so at least one small nice change. Thanks!
Cepheus Gallento
The Resurging Wind
Brennivin Alliance
#237 - 2014-07-23 11:14:51 UTC
I don't like the look and feel of the reprocessing interface. Reminds me of a pre-school sticker book. Bring back the old interface with check boxes and the actual names of output products. The only thing good about it is it shows just how much ISK your going to lose!
K1ii3r
Thukker Tax Time
#238 - 2014-07-23 11:16:00 UTC  |  Edited by: K1ii3r
OMG!! WTF PWNED By CCP Shocked

There is no doubt you guys are smarter than the average Bear but it seems this time you have created a monster that is going to drive away a good portion of your long time gamers by completely bombarding us with changes that are so dam complicated. Bordering on the ridiculous it seems thus far.

I have 9.8 standing with npc corp and yes did read past blogs so quickly maxed most of my repro skills and notice even with lvl 5 veld processing corp still takes 30%

In game bugs and glitches I've met a few, markets will adjust, and glitches will be fixed but I play to chill not get stressed by smartie pants devs that have made my ore spread sheets obsolete to top it off my aging eyes and shrinking brain cannot decipher all the new R&D menus with tiny text that in most cases still make little sense.

If anybody has a youtube tutorial channel post a link I'll make sure I atleast give eve another 2 months or so until subs run out

Ps
I'll make sure I +1 like and follow etc Lol
Gliese Casserres
Confused Bunnies Inc
#239 - 2014-07-23 11:26:44 UTC
Industry UI is great, but when I always have

BPO in one corp division
Materials in another corp division
My products going to 3rd division

the clickfest gets beyond annoying. Give me default input-output divisions already.
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#240 - 2014-07-23 11:35:58 UTC
Gliese Casserres wrote:
Industry UI is great, but when I always have

BPO in one corp division
Materials in another corp division
My products going to 3rd division

the clickfest gets beyond annoying. Give me default input-output divisions already.

+1

On this point I really miss the old UI...

EsiPy - Python 2.7 / 3.3+ Swagger Client based on pyswagger for ESI