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Crius Feedback

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Author
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#241 - 2014-07-23 11:58:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Owen Levanth
Meytal wrote:
DeODokktor wrote:
Meytal wrote:
I like how the math was simplified with the blueprint change of eliminating waste

"Simplified"?... "Eliminated"?

Previously, ME was an abstract value representing waste that had to be converted using a different calculation depending on whether it was positive or negative to determine actual waste:

If ME was negative:
wasteQuantity = ROUND(baseQuantity * (baseWasteFactor + ABS(ME / 10)))

Otherwise, ME was zero or positive:
wasteQuantity = ROUND(basequantity * baseWasteFactor / (1 + ME))

Where baseWasteFactor = 10% (0.10) in most, but not all, cases.

Your final count of materials is: baseQuantity + extraMaterials + wasteQuantity



Now, ME is the direct reduction for material quantities on the blueprint (ie: ME-7% = -0.07). There is no more waste and there are no more extra materials, there is only possible reduction to total materials required.

Your final count of materials is: baseQuantity * (1 + ME)

So yes, the math is simplified and more intuitive.
And yes, waste is eliminated.

DeODokktor wrote:
Meytal wrote:

PS: I still can't make a post about this patch without expressing how silly it is for Sov Nullsec and W-space to pay ISK to some ethereal entity for job installations, and request this be eliminated in those two regions of space.


Logically that seems backwards.
...
I don't think anyone understands how much of a ISK Sink CCP is making here.

It's a huge ISK sink.

Supposedly, you're paying work crews because while you can automate PI facilities, you can't automate manufacturing facilities. That's fine. In Hisec, Lowsec, and NPC Nullsec, an NPC governing entity is in control of the systems under its domain. They theoretically supply the manpower, provide a police force/security, and a slew of other benefits that warrant increased costs.

In W-space especially, there is nothing there except what you bring with you. You pay taxes for produced goods that you import into the system, sure, but you also bring your own populations and your own crews. You can choose to enact whatever payment system you like, be it generously showering them with ISK and other material goods in exchange for glorious productivity, or perhaps whipping them and torturing their children if production falls in the slightest. You don't pay anything to anyone outside your little sphere of influence. In Sov Nullsec, you are the governing entity, with same results as W-space.

CCP wants this to be an ISK sink. That's fine. I still don't have to pretend it makes sense in the situations I described.


What people tend to forget, even roleplaying slavers won't make the cost of feeding your slaves go away. Sure, you could just work them to death, but then CCP could say fine, we'll do it your way. Then you would have days or weeks were you couldn't start any jobs because you would have to abduct new slaves first.

So suck it up and pay your work crews, you clown.
Chichax
Thor's Hammer Incorporated
#242 - 2014-07-23 12:20:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Chichax
I really like the changes, but run into couple of bugs/features. Here there are in the order of importance (In my oppinion anyway.)

1) Most of the systems in high sec have max system index except for manufacturing and invention.

2) Once a job is delivered the blueprints tab is not updated to show it as available. Even manually selecting it prevents it from putting it to a new job. Closing and reoppening the window does not work. Workaround is to go to inventory, find it again and selecting it for use.

3)Invention in no way shows that the interface is in fact not used up by the job.

4) Job cost breakdown is just gone. It was on SiSi.

5) On the blueprint tab sorting blueprints by runs remaining infinity should be the highest not the lowest value.

6) You can not collapse the top part of the windows to monitor job progress in a compact way.

7) Unable to preview job cost using a market blueprint.

8) If a blueprint is in a job one can not preview it for other uses. This is not a big deal but would like to have this feature.

9) Having a way to find a team that one has bid on would be nice.

Finally a note to CCP. What in earth happened? Some of these issues were not on Sisi on the final days.

edit: reorganiced per importance
edit 2: Window collapsing added
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#243 - 2014-07-23 12:37:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
From Patch notes for Crius 1.1
Quote:
Blueprint show info now correctly reflects the current ME and TE levels.

What this was supposed to mean? My Capital Trimark Armor Pump II BPC still shows around 15% greater materials requirments (despite being an ME-9% one) than it showed right before Crius landed.

Here what it was before (I invented it using Occult Process so it had ME-1):
Interface circuit: 90
Intact armor plates: 78
Nanite Compound: 60

Here what it is now:
103
90
69

I don't see any sane reason while actual material requirments for rigs should be raised by 15%. So it's either some display bug, or badly made transition from old to new values.

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Meytal
Doomheim
#244 - 2014-07-23 12:39:36 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:
What people tend to forget, even roleplaying slavers won't make the cost of feeding your slaves go away. Sure, you could just work them to death, but then CCP could say fine, we'll do it your way. Then you would have days or weeks were you couldn't start any jobs because you would have to abduct new slaves first.

So suck it up and pay your work crews, you clown.

Oki, I'll bite.

So there are now crews, people, and we are paying them a salary, a commission per job. Where do they live? What do they eat? How do they travel between work and residence, and who pays for and maintains that infrastructure? What do they do to entertain themselves when they are not working?

There are more costs associated with a population than just paying a salary. Sure, we may have to pay them a salary, but why don't they have to pay for food, shelter, recreation, travel? We also would have to provide said food, shelter, and recreational facilities, and maintain the travel networks. Again, speaking from Wormhole space perspective, where there is nothing except what we provide.

Ultimately, in an ideal situation, there would be equilibrium; corrupt institutions would be generating a profit, and poorly-managed institutions would be driving up dept.

What does this add to the EVE game? Nothing. This doesn't add much to any game that isn't focusing on those very things the way games like Sim City do, so most games don't even bother.


So if EVE is going to start introducing npc-scale economies, then introduce the full thing. Tie it into PI, and make us in W-space and Sov Nullsec responsible for everything our "crews" do and need. Then we will figure out how to generate a profit from that as well, just like we figured out how to live and prosper in W-space despite the roadblocks put in our path.

Or just give up the pretense and call it what it is: an ISK sink that applies across all areas of the game whether it makes sense or not.

People trying to explain it away are just ... amusing.
Meytal
Doomheim
#245 - 2014-07-23 12:49:05 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
My Capital Trimark Armor Pump II BPC still shows ... greater materials requirments ... than it showed right before Crius landed.

Nowhere did CCP promise post-update material costs would be identical to the material costs pre-update. They picked a method of updating the blueprints that was as clear and as consistent as possible, trying to keep the numbers in the same general ballpark. Remember, they're removing waste and extra materials, and completely flipping the ME calculations on its head, so exact numbers isn't going to happen.

But the same numbers that look "wrong" to you now are the same numbers that look "wrong" to everyone else producing that same item. If you are manufacturing for market, adjust your cost calculations to come up with new profit calculations and margins. The market will adjust, though in this period of chaos some may make it big and some may lose big.

If you were manufacturing for personal use only, then it may be cheaper during this period of chaos to purchase items from the market that are still priced low due to stockpiling than trying to manufacture.

From what I've seen after a brief glance at my own blueprints, most material costs have gone up. Sure, it sucks, but the costs didn't just go up for me. They went up for everyone. This means sell values will increase. The costs will be passed onward to the consumer. They are the ones who should be concerned, not the manufacturers.
Yinmatook
Skilled Refugees
#246 - 2014-07-23 13:01:00 UTC
Meytal wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
What people tend to forget, even roleplaying slavers won't make the cost of feeding your slaves go away. Sure, you could just work them to death, but then CCP could say fine, we'll do it your way. Then you would have days or weeks were you couldn't start any jobs because you would have to abduct new slaves first.

So suck it up and pay your work crews, you clown.

Oki, I'll bite.

So there are now crews, people, and we are paying them a salary, a commission per job. Where do they live? What do they eat? How do they travel between work and residence, and who pays for and maintains that infrastructure? What do they do to entertain themselves when they are not working?

There are more costs associated with a population than just paying a salary. Sure, we may have to pay them a salary, but why don't they have to pay for food, shelter, recreation, travel? We also would have to provide said food, shelter, and recreational facilities, and maintain the travel networks. Again, speaking from Wormhole space perspective, where there is nothing except what we provide.

Ultimately, in an ideal situation, there would be equilibrium; corrupt institutions would be generating a profit, and poorly-managed institutions would be driving up dept.

What does this add to the EVE game? Nothing. This doesn't add much to any game that isn't focusing on those very things the way games like Sim City do, so most games don't even bother.


So if EVE is going to start introducing npc-scale economies, then introduce the full thing. Tie it into PI, and make us in W-space and Sov Nullsec responsible for everything our "crews" do and need. Then we will figure out how to generate a profit from that as well, just like we figured out how to live and prosper in W-space despite the roadblocks put in our path.

Or just give up the pretense and call it what it is: an ISK sink that applies across all areas of the game whether it makes sense or not.

People trying to explain it away are just ... amusing.


You forgot the medical facilities to deal with the inevitable accidents that will happen on the production lines after they've had a long night of living it up with all that food, drink, and "entertainment" we have to supply them...
Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#247 - 2014-07-23 13:03:54 UTC
**** I'm begging for a Dev reply. ****

With regards to jobs in progress pre-Crius, I figured out (with much anxiety) that I could take down the labs and tower without interrupting the jobs in progress. Clearer language on this in the patch notes would have been greatly appreciated.

However, I have a new anxiety source. I'd like to move those BPOs with the jobs in progress to my new corp home. Will doing so interfere with the pre-Crius job completion? Logically I'd think not, but I don't like to assume anything.

Please provide a simple yes or no, not a description of how it will work. The previous answers on this topic have been unnecessarily descriptive without providing a concise answerWhat?.
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#248 - 2014-07-23 13:16:04 UTC
Yinmatook wrote:
Meytal wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
What people tend to forget, even roleplaying slavers won't make the cost of feeding your slaves go away. Sure, you could just work them to death, but then CCP could say fine, we'll do it your way. Then you would have days or weeks were you couldn't start any jobs because you would have to abduct new slaves first.

So suck it up and pay your work crews, you clown.

Oki, I'll bite.

So there are now crews, people, and we are paying them a salary, a commission per job. Where do they live? What do they eat? How do they travel between work and residence, and who pays for and maintains that infrastructure? What do they do to entertain themselves when they are not working?

There are more costs associated with a population than just paying a salary. Sure, we may have to pay them a salary, but why don't they have to pay for food, shelter, recreation, travel? We also would have to provide said food, shelter, and recreational facilities, and maintain the travel networks. Again, speaking from Wormhole space perspective, where there is nothing except what we provide.

Ultimately, in an ideal situation, there would be equilibrium; corrupt institutions would be generating a profit, and poorly-managed institutions would be driving up dept.

What does this add to the EVE game? Nothing. This doesn't add much to any game that isn't focusing on those very things the way games like Sim City do, so most games don't even bother.


So if EVE is going to start introducing npc-scale economies, then introduce the full thing. Tie it into PI, and make us in W-space and Sov Nullsec responsible for everything our "crews" do and need. Then we will figure out how to generate a profit from that as well, just like we figured out how to live and prosper in W-space despite the roadblocks put in our path.

Or just give up the pretense and call it what it is: an ISK sink that applies across all areas of the game whether it makes sense or not.

People trying to explain it away are just ... amusing.


You forgot the medical facilities to deal with the inevitable accidents that will happen on the production lines after they've had a long night of living it up with all that food, drink, and "entertainment" we have to supply them...

The real point is, why would we use HUMANS when we are able to do the same with drones/mechanics ? Don't tell me that, we can jump, travel through universe but not able to set up drones to do our manufacturing jobs...
At least I can understand we need humans for research, invention, but not for manufacturing.

EsiPy - Python 2.7 / 3.3+ Swagger Client based on pyswagger for ESI

Hirogenale
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#249 - 2014-07-23 13:29:27 UTC
Althalus Stenory wrote:
Yinmatook wrote:
Meytal wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
What people tend to forget, even roleplaying slavers won't make the cost of feeding your slaves go away. Sure, you could just work them to death, but then CCP could say fine, we'll do it your way. Then you would have days or weeks were you couldn't start any jobs because you would have to abduct new slaves first.

So suck it up and pay your work crews, you clown.

Oki, I'll bite.

So there are now crews, people, and we are paying them a salary, a commission per job. Where do they live? What do they eat? How do they travel between work and residence, and who pays for and maintains that infrastructure? What do they do to entertain themselves when they are not working?

There are more costs associated with a population than just paying a salary. Sure, we may have to pay them a salary, but why don't they have to pay for food, shelter, recreation, travel? We also would have to provide said food, shelter, and recreational facilities, and maintain the travel networks. Again, speaking from Wormhole space perspective, where there is nothing except what we provide.

Ultimately, in an ideal situation, there would be equilibrium; corrupt institutions would be generating a profit, and poorly-managed institutions would be driving up dept.

What does this add to the EVE game? Nothing. This doesn't add much to any game that isn't focusing on those very things the way games like Sim City do, so most games don't even bother.


So if EVE is going to start introducing npc-scale economies, then introduce the full thing. Tie it into PI, and make us in W-space and Sov Nullsec responsible for everything our "crews" do and need. Then we will figure out how to generate a profit from that as well, just like we figured out how to live and prosper in W-space despite the roadblocks put in our path.

Or just give up the pretense and call it what it is: an ISK sink that applies across all areas of the game whether it makes sense or not.

People trying to explain it away are just ... amusing.


You forgot the medical facilities to deal with the inevitable accidents that will happen on the production lines after they've had a long night of living it up with all that food, drink, and "entertainment" we have to supply them...

The real point is, why would we use HUMANS when we are able to do the same with drones/mechanics ? Don't tell me that, we can jump, travel through universe but not able to set up drones to do our manufacturing jobs...
At least I can understand we need humans for research, invention, but not for manufacturing.



Rogue drones can do all of that themselfes, but hey, we need humans!
Also the amount of ISK the workers get paid is ridicculous, according to lore (unless that changed massively) 1 Mil ISK would be enough for a normal human to retire at birth, basically the amount of ISK we'd have to pay a crew on a POS would be so small we wouldn't even notice it. They'd be happy with some waste from the fuel blocks.
The amount they get NOW is way above the income of an capsuleer, completely out of sync with the lore, so thats absolutely no excuse for this crap. Pure ISK sink, nothing more.
Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#250 - 2014-07-23 13:41:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Hairpins Blueprint
I like the changes a LOT! Big smile

Only one thing troubles me, there is no queue for small jobs.

Like the invention, if we had added queue for skill, way not add it to industry jobs?

Instaling them every 2 hours is boring and huge pain in the as*, it was same thing with skills but it was fixed :3

24 h queue for a scince/manufacturing etc. would be super cool. Or eaven to 30 day's beacuse way not? Pirate



And way we have 2 day like max copy time? when we can do ME for 30 day's? Ugh is there any specific reson?

same thing with T2 BPC's build time for small modules is very short ... would be cool to make it possible to stack it over
Kblackjack54
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#251 - 2014-07-23 13:43:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Kblackjack54
Post removed,

To busy falling about laughing at this lot, predict rampant inflation followed by market implosion, Explain that one to your player base.

Twisted
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#252 - 2014-07-23 13:47:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Meytal, thats not about some little discrepancy. Lets do some math.
Here are basic material requirments for Capital Trimark Armor Pump II as they shown in bluepring info now:
Interface circuit: 113
Intact armor plates: 98
Nanite Compound: 75
2xR.A.M. units

Here what they were (I getting the numbers from ISK per Hour tool, IPH) for a basic t2 BPC with ME-4 (those also shown already modified by now gone Material Efficiency skill, IPH still use old calculations and, I hope, all material requirments too):
Interface circuit: 113
Intact armor plates: 98
Nanite Compound: 75
1xR.A.M. units

So, they are the same.

Here what it was for a maximum ME achived through invention before Crius (ME -1):

Interface circuit: 90
Intact armor plates: 78
Nanite Compound: 60
1xR.A.M. units

You can easly check for yourself that difference between old basic t2 BPC and old most saving t2 BPC roughly equals to 20%.
But now we can cut material costs by -10% max.
For what?
Just for the sake of those flashy round 10 number? Our new inexpirienced players strive hard to remember ME level numbers greater than 10? Or may be someone got too lazy? We basically losing 10% from our hard earned t2 BPCs for that? Why ten, and not 20 levels? 20 is nice and round number too. If new t2 BPCs had 20 ME levels it would have roughly the same material requirments as before when it maxed.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link

peroxide chase
Os Group
#253 - 2014-07-23 14:26:36 UTC
This This This This This, what they did was increase costs for ALL t2 items while increasing build times & invention times for MOST all items.

The only thing these changes accomplish is inflation coupled with the need for more users to produce to satisfy the same level of demand(increasing goods costs further).


Ray Kyonhe wrote:
[
You can easly check for yourself that difference between old basic t2 BPC and old most saving t2 BPC roughly equals to 20%.
But now we can cut material costs by -10% max.
For what?
Just for the sake of those flashy round 10 number? Our new inexpirienced players strive hard to remember ME level numbers greater than 10? We basically losing 10% from our hard earned t2 BPCs for that? Why ten, and not 20 levels? 20 is nice and round number too. If new t2 BPCs had 20 ME levels it would have roughly the same material requirments as before when it maxed.

Mackenzie Nolen
Doomheim
#254 - 2014-07-23 14:31:31 UTC
Meytal wrote:
People trying to explain it away are just ... amusing.


Nobody's trying to "explain it away". We're trying to explain to the people that want to opt-out of this ISK sink because "I use slaves therefore [nonsensical jabber]" why -- since they insist on requiring a "rational" in-game reason for this -- they STILL wouldn't get to opt-out.
Meytal
Doomheim
#255 - 2014-07-23 14:45:05 UTC
Mackenzie Nolen wrote:
Meytal wrote:
People trying to explain it away are just ... amusing.


Nobody's trying to "explain it away". We're trying to explain to the people that want to opt-out of this ISK sink because "I use slaves therefore [nonsensical jabber]" why -- since they insist on requiring a "rational" in-game reason for this -- they STILL wouldn't get to opt-out.

And I was merely trying to explain how such a short-sighted and overly-simplified notion of paying wages doesn't even come close to explaining the ISK sink in any sort of rational manner. Perhaps we are going to have to agree to disagree in this case.

Ray Kyonhe wrote:
(observations documenting things are more expensive now)

In either one of the devblogs or one of the forum threads, they said that they were adjusting T2 blueprint materials upwards by 50% to account for removal of waste, extra materials, etc. The old ME-4 was 50% waste added to the blueprint. There was a lot of discussion around how 37.5% increase was better, etc. but that doesn't matter because the same number applies across the board.

I'm not going to pretend that I dived deep enough into the numbers or the discussion to have an opinion on what those numbers should have become. The only thing I really cared about as far as that process goes is what you observed and stated, and what I needed to do to adjust to the new reality: things are going to be more expensive now.


Adjust your cost and profit calculations, wait for the market to settle if you can't sell at a profit, or keep a keen eye out for crazy good deals that people accidentally list way below current market value. Everyone will have to adjust, it's not just you. Personally, my two indy accounts are about to expire so I'm going to let them lapse for a month or so for the market to settle and CCP to work out the bugs. I have enough capital that I don't need to generate an income, though I will be doing that (at a reduced rate to manufacturing) through normal living in W-space. I don't particularly have the time or inclination to try to take advantage of the market changes right now.


You don't have to suddenly sell at a loss because the costs are rising, unless you're living day by day and have zero liquid capital. And if you are living day to day, you probably shouldn't be making T2 capital rigs, since that's a rather large investment in a relatively slow moving market. We in W-space are trying to kill as many capitals as we can to help that market though :)

If you are manufacturing for self or for corp, then like the rest of the consumers (ie: everyone), your costs are going to go up as well. This also isn't just affecting you, so at least it's equitable, even if it does suck :) It may be better to purchase finished product from the market in some cases for a while until the market adjusts and stockpiles run out.

I may not necessarily like everything about the industry update, but I do think the repercussions of adjusting the blueprint materials and scrapmetal reprocessing that we are facing now is completely worth revamping the manufacturing process to eliminate the klunky waste and extra materials and greatly simplify the calculations, though. We just need time to let the market settle at its new values.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#256 - 2014-07-23 14:46:37 UTC
Hirogenale wrote:
Althalus Stenory wrote:
Yinmatook wrote:
Meytal wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
What people tend to forget, even roleplaying slavers won't make the cost of feeding your slaves go away. Sure, you could just work them to death, but then CCP could say fine, we'll do it your way. Then you would have days or weeks were you couldn't start any jobs because you would have to abduct new slaves first.

So suck it up and pay your work crews, you clown.

Oki, I'll bite.

So there are now crews, people, and we are paying them a salary, a commission per job. Where do they live? What do they eat? How do they travel between work and residence, and who pays for and maintains that infrastructure? What do they do to entertain themselves when they are not working?

There are more costs associated with a population than just paying a salary. Sure, we may have to pay them a salary, but why don't they have to pay for food, shelter, recreation, travel? We also would have to provide said food, shelter, and recreational facilities, and maintain the travel networks. Again, speaking from Wormhole space perspective, where there is nothing except what we provide.

Ultimately, in an ideal situation, there would be equilibrium; corrupt institutions would be generating a profit, and poorly-managed institutions would be driving up dept.

What does this add to the EVE game? Nothing. This doesn't add much to any game that isn't focusing on those very things the way games like Sim City do, so most games don't even bother.


So if EVE is going to start introducing npc-scale economies, then introduce the full thing. Tie it into PI, and make us in W-space and Sov Nullsec responsible for everything our "crews" do and need. Then we will figure out how to generate a profit from that as well, just like we figured out how to live and prosper in W-space despite the roadblocks put in our path.

Or just give up the pretense and call it what it is: an ISK sink that applies across all areas of the game whether it makes sense or not.

People trying to explain it away are just ... amusing.


You forgot the medical facilities to deal with the inevitable accidents that will happen on the production lines after they've had a long night of living it up with all that food, drink, and "entertainment" we have to supply them...

The real point is, why would we use HUMANS when we are able to do the same with drones/mechanics ? Don't tell me that, we can jump, travel through universe but not able to set up drones to do our manufacturing jobs...
At least I can understand we need humans for research, invention, but not for manufacturing.



Rogue drones can do all of that themselfes, but hey, we need humans!
Also the amount of ISK the workers get paid is ridicculous, according to lore (unless that changed massively) 1 Mil ISK would be enough for a normal human to retire at birth, basically the amount of ISK we'd have to pay a crew on a POS would be so small we wouldn't even notice it. They'd be happy with some waste from the fuel blocks.
The amount they get NOW is way above the income of an capsuleer, completely out of sync with the lore, so thats absolutely no excuse for this crap. Pure ISK sink, nothing more.


Rogue drones would turn your POS into a new hive, though.

I see this is as necessary abstraction for all costs associated with having people on your POS, working away. Not just the salary.
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#257 - 2014-07-23 14:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Meytal wrote:

I may not necessarily like everything about the industry update, but I do think the repercussions of adjusting the blueprint materials and scrapmetal reprocessing that we are facing now is completely worth revamping the manufacturing process to eliminate the klunky waste and extra materials and greatly simplify the calculations, though. We just need time to let the market settle at its new values.

I don't have any objections to production and research paradigm's change. I just pointing the fact that someone's over-obsession with unification adds additional havoc where it could be avoided. Tell me, for what good reason we can't have separate leveling range for t2 BPCs, going from from 0% to 20% (they could keep 0-10% range for regular BPOs/BPCs if it needed), to keep old material requirments in place? To keep old effectivness of decryptors (which now became much more useless than even before)? Can you poing it out? Of course, aside from the fact you will need a couple of additional brain cells to hold these two ranges in memory simultaneously, and that it's not totally unifed one, nice-looking and all round-up system. This pursuit for good and flashy picture which looks nice on surface despite it ruins more vital stuff under the hood starts to inflict too much disaster to merely shrug it off.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link

Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#258 - 2014-07-23 15:01:02 UTC
Hirogenale wrote:
Althalus Stenory wrote:
Yinmatook wrote:
Meytal wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
What people tend to forget, even roleplaying slavers won't make the cost of feeding your slaves go away. Sure, you could just work them to death, but then CCP could say fine, we'll do it your way. Then you would have days or weeks were you couldn't start any jobs because you would have to abduct new slaves first.

So suck it up and pay your work crews, you clown.

Oki, I'll bite.

So there are now crews, people, and we are paying them a salary, a commission per job. Where do they live? What do they eat? How do they travel between work and residence, and who pays for and maintains that infrastructure? What do they do to entertain themselves when they are not working?

There are more costs associated with a population than just paying a salary. Sure, we may have to pay them a salary, but why don't they have to pay for food, shelter, recreation, travel? We also would have to provide said food, shelter, and recreational facilities, and maintain the travel networks. Again, speaking from Wormhole space perspective, where there is nothing except what we provide.

Ultimately, in an ideal situation, there would be equilibrium; corrupt institutions would be generating a profit, and poorly-managed institutions would be driving up dept.

What does this add to the EVE game? Nothing. This doesn't add much to any game that isn't focusing on those very things the way games like Sim City do, so most games don't even bother.


So if EVE is going to start introducing npc-scale economies, then introduce the full thing. Tie it into PI, and make us in W-space and Sov Nullsec responsible for everything our "crews" do and need. Then we will figure out how to generate a profit from that as well, just like we figured out how to live and prosper in W-space despite the roadblocks put in our path.

Or just give up the pretense and call it what it is: an ISK sink that applies across all areas of the game whether it makes sense or not.

People trying to explain it away are just ... amusing.


You forgot the medical facilities to deal with the inevitable accidents that will happen on the production lines after they've had a long night of living it up with all that food, drink, and "entertainment" we have to supply them...

The real point is, why would we use HUMANS when we are able to do the same with drones/mechanics ? Don't tell me that, we can jump, travel through universe but not able to set up drones to do our manufacturing jobs...
At least I can understand we need humans for research, invention, but not for manufacturing.



Rogue drones can do all of that themselfes, but hey, we need humans!
Also the amount of ISK the workers get paid is ridicculous, according to lore (unless that changed massively) 1 Mil ISK would be enough for a normal human to retire at birth, basically the amount of ISK we'd have to pay a crew on a POS would be so small we wouldn't even notice it. They'd be happy with some waste from the fuel blocks.
The amount they get NOW is way above the income of an capsuleer, completely out of sync with the lore, so thats absolutely no excuse for this crap. Pure ISK sink, nothing more.


Maybe it's a coordinated inter-Empires plot to rein in the overly powerful capsullers they fear! Evil
Pavlakakos
W.A.S.P
Sons of Sylph
#259 - 2014-07-23 15:35:08 UTC
Meytal wrote:

It's a huge ISK sink.

Supposedly, you're paying work crews because while you can automate PI facilities, you can't automate manufacturing facilities. That's fine. In Hisec, Lowsec, and NPC Nullsec, an NPC governing entity is in control of the systems under its domain. They theoretically supply the manpower, provide a police force/security, and a slew of other benefits that warrant increased costs.

In W-space especially, there is nothing there except what you bring with you. You pay taxes for produced goods that you import into the system, sure, but you also bring your own populations and your own crews. You can choose to enact whatever payment system you like, be it generously showering them with ISK and other material goods in exchange for glorious productivity, or perhaps whipping them and torturing their children if production falls in the slightest. You don't pay anything to anyone outside your little sphere of influence. In Sov Nullsec, you are the governing entity, with same results as W-space.

CCP wants this to be an ISK sink. That's fine. I still don't have to pretend it makes sense in the situations I described.


Well, being a sov holder and a station owner, i can ask some things from CCP.

a/ Being located in Amarr null, i want a button with the option to use Minmatar slaves instead of workers (pretty legal down here).

b/ I set a rent of 2 bil./month to SCC to have an office with a representative in my station to collect taxes, otherwise i want a button saying "Decompress SCC office" and just throw them out in space.
Fuzzy TheBear
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#260 - 2014-07-23 15:35:31 UTC
Look i'm going to be plain about this . There's no reason whatsoever to release software with major bugs . None .
Software testing should not be done by users , it should be done systematically by the developpers and quality control .
Obviously you guys have no idea how to test software . Saving a bit of money pushing known buggy releases out the door
is not the solution. Releasing for the sake of releasing is just as bad an idea.
Frankly and honestly : tighten up your act. This is pathetic .

It just had to be said .