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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#1461 - 2014-07-07 17:28:56 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Interesting....

According to the same KB Red Frog hasnt lost a single freighter in that time frame

Which is odd, as statistically you think that as high users of them, they would be garunteed to have lost at least one

Hmm
perhaps theres something amiss here...


I do believe Red Frog pilots fly under npc corps to avoid war decs. I assume that would be why it shows no losses.


Well as you are the third person now to say that, I guess it makes you the lucky winner

I assume that many do, but equally I have seen RF freighters on many occassions too

And there are Freighter losses on their KB, though from earlier than the timeframe I was talking about.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#1462 - 2014-07-07 17:31:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Organic Lager
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kal Murmur wrote:
It's amusing though that the accuracy of the data only started being challenged once it showed a conclusion contrary to the one people were hoping for.


What's amusing to me is that you think there were less than six hundred suicide ganks for the entire year of 2009. That disqualifies your entire set of data by itself.


Even if you drop out anything earlier then 2012 do to unreliability there is still a huge trend upwards with each year doubling its predecessor.

Edit: 2014 is actually on pace to triple 2013
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1463 - 2014-07-07 17:33:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
De'Veldrin wrote:
Honestly, I was under the impression that all of Red Frog's Freighters were NPC alts anyway (to avoid war dec issues). So the kill board wouldn't be an accurate place to asess those numbers - you'd need to look at their internal reimbursement numbers.
The closest you'll get is their annual reports.

They failed 194 highsec contracts in 2012, of which 89 (~45%) were suicide ganks spread over 25+ freighters. Assuming the same percentage for suicide gank losses for 2013, out of the 260 highsec contracts that failed 117(ish) were probably suicide ganks.

Between the 2012 annual report and the 2013 annual report, contracts issued to them went from 110290 to 223414.
Their losses in 2013 accounted for less than 0.12% of issued contracts, in 2012 it was closer to 0.17%*.

TL;DR Red Frogs's trade has increased, the risk of losing a freighter to a suicide gank appears to have gone down despite this.

*0.12% is their own figure. My maths may be a little off with the 0.17%, I'd appreciate if someone would double check.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#1464 - 2014-07-07 17:40:20 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kal Murmur wrote:
It's amusing though that the accuracy of the data only started being challenged once it showed a conclusion contrary to the one people were hoping for.


What's amusing to me is that you think there were less than six hundred suicide ganks for the entire year of 2009. That disqualifies your entire set of data by itself.


Even if you drop out anything earlier then 2012 do to unreliability there is still a huge trend upwards with each year doubling its predecessor.

Edit: 2014 is actually on pace to triple 2013


And yet those of us who dont see an epidemic report no increased ganking chance, and anyone who does see an epidemic has yet to say whether they have been ganked or suffered more ganks than they remember from the past.

oh wait there was that one guy I talked to a while back in this thread, he said he could AFK mine with no problem, so the gankers were of no consequence to him, but ganking should be nerfed anyway

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1465 - 2014-07-07 17:41:42 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Kal Murmur wrote:
The game always encouraged people to move out to low / null, that's why the rewards for doing so are so much higher. At the same time people have always been able to stay if they are willing to accept lower rewards and grind. I've just come back after a break and being an industrialist in high sec has become a lot harder in my absence. Freighters are much less safe, mining is a lot less safe. If you're a ganker that that's awesome news, you get to have lots more fun. If you're an industrialist that's really bad news, and you're going to have a lot less fun.

Huh, during your long absence you must have missed the multitude of barge buffs, freighter ehp buffs, jump freighter ehp buffs, Industrial buffs, mtu bug and later fix, and crimewatch nerfs.

To fill you in, barges and exhumers and more ehp, freighters have more ehp plus options to fit in different manners for even more. The arc can reach 700K ehp requiring between 35 and 70 players to gank. Industrials recieved more diversified roles, with a significant buff to deep space transports and blockade runners (admittedly the blockade runner change doesn't affect high sec much). Crimewatch removed canflipping from the game entirely, and significantly simplified the reprecussions for illegal actions in high sec, almost universally to griefer's detriment, and gave players a safety setting to protect their ship from concord. Finally, the only buff to our playstyle in recent memory, the mtu drone agression mechanics, was removed from the game three months after introduction.

So, yes, high sec is more dangerous than ever. *rolls eyes*


Kal Murmur wrote:

Highsec always did support a diverse array of playstyles. The current gank epidemic just reduces that diversity by making some professions increasingly boring to the point where people just can't be bothered any more. The sad thing is that if it drives away subs CCP will inevitably nerf ganking more, and that will really suck. It's just a shame that people can't do things in moderation instead of everyone jumping on whatever bandwagon happens to be rolling past at the moment.

Ganking does not remove a single play style from the game. People can still mine, they just need to be careful. People can still haul, they just need to be careful, people can still mission, they just need to be careful. Please let us know what playstyles have been removed from the game.

I'll help you out. Ninja Salvaging for profit, can flipping, and MTU baiting (admittedly this last one should never have existed in the first place.)

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

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Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#1466 - 2014-07-07 17:44:21 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kal Murmur wrote:
It's amusing though that the accuracy of the data only started being challenged once it showed a conclusion contrary to the one people were hoping for.


What's amusing to me is that you think there were less than six hundred suicide ganks for the entire year of 2009. That disqualifies your entire set of data by itself.


Even if you drop out anything earlier then 2012 do to unreliability there is still a huge trend upwards with each year doubling its predecessor.

Edit: 2014 is actually on pace to triple 2013


And yet those of us who dont see an epidemic report no increased ganking chance, and anyone who does see an epidemic has yet to say whether they have been ganked or suffered more ganks than they remember from the past.

oh wait there was that one guy I talked to a while back in this thread, he said he could AFK mine with no problem, so the gankers were of no consequence to him, but ganking should be nerfed anyway


From my personal experiance I'm happy to report ganking is down. Only 99,998 players left to poll.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1467 - 2014-07-07 17:46:09 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
Honestly, I was under the impression that all of Red Frog's Freighters were NPC alts anyway (to avoid war dec issues). So the kill board wouldn't be an accurate place to asess those numbers - you'd need to look at their internal reimbursement numbers.
The closest you'll get is their annual reports.

They failed 194 highsec contracts in 2012, of which 89 (~45%) were suicide ganks spread over 25+ freighters. Assuming the same percentage for suicide gank losses for 2013, out of the 260 highsec contracts that failed 117(ish) were suicide ganks.

Between the 2012 annual report and the 2013 annual report, contracts issued to them went from 110290 to 223414 contracts. Their losses in 2013 accounted for less than 0.12% of issued contracts, in 2012 it was closer to 0.17%*.

TL;DR Red Frogs's trade has increased, the risk of losing a freighter to a suicide gank appears to have gone down despite this.

*0.12% is their own figure. My maths may be a little off with the 0.17%, I'd appreciate if someone would double check.

I'm very interested in the 2014 figures. CODE. only started freighter ganking this year.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#1468 - 2014-07-07 17:47:04 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:


From my personal experiance I'm happy to report ganking is down. Only 99,998 players left to poll.


So, you would be inclined to the view that there is no Ganking Epidemic yourself, then?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1469 - 2014-07-07 17:47:50 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
Honestly, I was under the impression that all of Red Frog's Freighters were NPC alts anyway (to avoid war dec issues). So the kill board wouldn't be an accurate place to asess those numbers - you'd need to look at their internal reimbursement numbers.
The closest you'll get is their annual reports.

They failed 194 highsec contracts in 2012, of which 89 (~45%) were suicide ganks spread over 25+ freighters. Assuming the same percentage for suicide gank losses for 2013, out of the 260 highsec contracts that failed 117(ish) were suicide ganks.

Between the 2012 annual report and the 2013 annual report, contracts issued to them went from 110290 to 223414 contracts. Their losses in 2013 accounted for less than 0.12% of issued contracts, in 2012 it was closer to 0.17%*.

TL;DR Red Frogs's trade has increased, the risk of losing a freighter to a suicide gank appears to have gone down despite this.

*0.12% is their own figure. My maths may be a little off with the 0.17%, I'd appreciate if someone would double check.

I'm very interested in the 2014 figures. CODE. only started freighter ganking this year.
Indeed, should be interesting.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1470 - 2014-07-07 17:54:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Why are people trying to justify CCP being anti gank or pro miner by talking about the barge buff?

Buffing something from wet paper to wet cardboard might make for good press but really it's a gank buff since it provided a false sense of security for miners. Sure, you need to add an extra dessie to your squad, but is that really a high price to pay for such a target rich environment full of miners flush with the overconfidence that CCP gave them with their fake buff?

Mr Epeen Cool
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#1471 - 2014-07-07 17:57:23 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:


From my personal experiance I'm happy to report ganking is down. Only 99,998 players left to poll.


So, you would be inclined to the view that there is no Ganking Epidemic yourself, then?


Absolutly, from a personal perspective ganking is down. But those numbers, man that is a tough one to explain away, especially 2013 and 2014, really wish we had more data. Be interesting what the final year tally comes out to and if the gankers can continue to improve into 2015.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1472 - 2014-07-07 18:01:39 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Mr Epeen wrote:
Why are people trying to justify CCP being anti gank or pro miner by talking about the barge buff?

Buffing something from wet paper to wet cardboard might make for good press but really it's a gank buff since it provided a false sense of security for miners. Sure, you need to add an extra dessie to your squad, but is that really a high price to pay for such a target rich environment full of miners flush with the overconfidence that CCP gave them with their fake buff?

Mr Epeen Cool

Oh, I never claimed that ccp is anti-ganker or pro-miner. They're completely neutral Blink. I was pointing out that the statement, "Freighters are much less safe, mining is a lot less safe" is blatantly false.

Keep in mind that an additional destroyer is usually the different between profitable and losing money.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

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De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1473 - 2014-07-07 18:07:57 UTC  |  Edited by: De'Veldrin
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:


TL;DR Red Frogs's trade has increased, the risk of losing a freighter to a suicide gank appears to have gone down despite this.


Honestly, it's hard to draw that conclusion, since we don't have any idea of the actual numbers of contracts that were lost (as opposed to failed for some other reason) and what percentage of those were lost to ganks as opposed to awox/stupidity. All we can really say for sure is that RF got better at performing their core business - getting boxes from here to there without losing them.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#1474 - 2014-07-07 18:08:36 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:


From my personal experiance I'm happy to report ganking is down. Only 99,998 players left to poll.


So, you would be inclined to the view that there is no Ganking Epidemic yourself, then?


Absolutly, from a personal perspective ganking is down. But those numbers, man that is a tough one to explain away, especially 2013 and 2014, really wish we had more data. Be interesting what the final year tally comes out to and if the gankers can continue to improve into 2015.


I agree with your point of view in regards to these things.

Ganking SHOULD be down because after ten years you would think it would be common knowledge not to park a tincan in the open without defenses. But apparently, that is "unfair" and "lame" and "wrong" to think that folk might want to actually look after their investments.

Im just so tired of the "gankers are bad people and they pick on people who cant defend themselves" attitude some people have and my point of view in regards to this thread is; if you dont look after yourself, you deserve what you get.

I have NEVER seen anything in EvE, in any release, note, speech, patch, press announcement or Dev comment in a thread that has ever said anything different.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#1475 - 2014-07-07 18:09:57 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
All we can really say for sure is that RF got better at performing their core business - getting boxes from here to there without losing them.


And unless they are in with the oooh Null Cartels and the CCPluminati, then they are only doing what everyone else can easily do too; flying smart

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1476 - 2014-07-07 18:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: De'Veldrin
Ramona McCandless wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
All we can really say for sure is that RF got better at performing their core business - getting boxes from here to there without losing them.


And unless they are in with the oooh Null Cartels and the CCPluminati, then they are only doing what everyone else can easily do too; flying smart


I concur.
When I was running logistics for EICo (RIP) I think we lost one freighter out of a hundred or so runs that I was responsible for - we used escorts, webbers, logi, ECM frigates, and scouts to help protect them. The one freighter we did lose was because the pilot decided to YOLO his way through Niarja with a juicy cargo.

In fact, funny story, we lost more webbers than we did freighters because I constantly let the duel timer expire (accidentally) and would then get concorded for webbing the freighter.Oops

The first time it was funny...after that it became annoying to lose rapiers.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1477 - 2014-07-07 18:18:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
De'Veldrin wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:


TL;DR Red Frogs's trade has increased, the risk of losing a freighter to a suicide gank appears to have gone down despite this.


Honestly, it's hard to draw that conclusion, since we don't have any idea of the actual numbers of contracts that were lost (as opposed to failed for some other reason) and what percentage of those were lost to ganks as opposed to awox/stupidity. All we can really say for sure is that RF got better at performing their core business - getting boxes from here to there without losing them.
True enough, hence "appears to have", which relates to the assumption that the percentage of failed contracts due to suicide ganking remained constant. Red Frog didn't include the rate of losses due to suicide ganking in their failed contracts summary for 2013, unlike 2012.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1478 - 2014-07-07 18:25:11 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:


TL;DR Red Frogs's trade has increased, the risk of losing a freighter to a suicide gank appears to have gone down despite this.


Honestly, it's hard to draw that conclusion, since we don't have any idea of the actual numbers of contracts that were lost (as opposed to failed for some other reason) and what percentage of those were lost to ganks as opposed to awox/stupidity. All we can really say for sure is that RF got better at performing their core business - getting boxes from here to there without losing them.
True enough, hence "appears to have", which relates to the assumption that percentage of failed contracts related to suicide ganking remained constant. Red Frog didn't include the rate of losses due to suicide ganking in their failed contracts summary in 2013, unlike 2012.


Fair point. I always get a little leery of statistical conclusions where I don't have access to the raw data. As Mark Twain said, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1479 - 2014-07-07 21:55:22 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kal Murmur wrote:
It's amusing though that the accuracy of the data only started being challenged once it showed a conclusion contrary to the one people were hoping for.


What's amusing to me is that you think there were less than six hundred suicide ganks for the entire year of 2009. That disqualifies your entire set of data by itself.


Even if you drop out anything earlier then 2012 do to unreliability there is still a huge trend upwards with each year doubling its predecessor.

Edit: 2014 is actually on pace to triple 2013


No its not.

on average 6 freighters are ganked per day out of tens of thousands of trips. CCP have themselves said that miner ganking has never been lower. Ganking as a whole has dropped massivly from the days of M0o.
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1480 - 2014-07-07 21:56:18 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:

Im just so tired of the "gankers are bad people and they pick on people who cant defend themselves" attitude some people have and my point of view in regards to this thread is; if you dont look after yourself, you deserve what you get.


It is hard to pity hisec pilots who have such huge advantages over pilots in any other space (CONCORD:24/7 sub-minute response of omnipotent NPCs, facpo: standing fleet to chase and harass neg sec status pilots) and then whine for more nerfs. Just makes me want to kill them more to hear their lamentations.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."