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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1441 - 2014-07-07 16:42:07 UTC
Kal Murmur wrote:
Source is zkillboard.
You mean the killboard that has no accurate stats for 2012 and earlier and which very obviously includes lots of non-ganks?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1442 - 2014-07-07 16:44:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Interesting....

According to the same KB Red Frog hasnt lost a single freighter in that time frame

Which is odd, as statistically you think that as high users of them, they would be garunteed to have lost at least one

Hmm
perhaps theres something amiss here...
Redfrog, if Eve has an underground volcano lair, it's their head office muhahaha... Evil

Or they're doing it right.....

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#1443 - 2014-07-07 16:44:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Kal Murmur wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Interesting....

According to the same KB Red Frog hasnt lost a single freighter in that time frame

Which is odd, as statistically you think that as high users of them, they would be garunteed to have lost at least one

Hmm
perhaps theres something amiss here...


Hmm, I also looked at Red Frog as a corp to see their freighter losses. They lost one in a June, in 2013. June 29th to be precise but it was a Fenrir which is why it won't have showed up on the Charon search.

As a corp (according to zkillboard) they lost..

2 in 2011
4 in 2012
8 in 2013
and 6 to present in 2014. That would seem to represent the same kind of increase the other figures showed.



But none in the time period you posted

Which I presume you posted to show some kind of increase in losses

But in that time they lost none

So....

Are they statistically wierd?

Also, here's a point Im not sure anyone has raised...

Have player numbers reamined more or less the same since 2011?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Kal Murmur
Lazortits
#1444 - 2014-07-07 16:48:52 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Kal Murmur wrote:
Source is zkillboard.
You mean the killboard that has no accurate stats for 2012 and earlier and which very obviously includes lots of non-ganks?


I was asked to provide data from zkillboard or eve kill, I did so. If you can suggest a more reliable killboard we can use, then feel free to do so.

Ramona McCandless wrote:
But none in the time period you posted

Which I presume you posted to show some kind of increase in losses

But in that time they lost none

So....

Are they statistically wierd?


Red Frog don't lose many freighters. Given that we were looking at the numbers for only the Charon, it's hardly that surprising that they didn't lose any during the month of June, given how low their total losses are.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#1445 - 2014-07-07 16:50:10 UTC
Kal Murmur wrote:


Red Frog don't lose many freighters. Given that we were looking at the numbers for only the Charon, it's hardly that surprising that they didn't lose any during the month of June, given how low their total losses are.


So why are they immune from your Ganking Epidemic?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1446 - 2014-07-07 16:52:18 UTC
Kal Murmur wrote:
I was asked to provide data from zkillboard or eve kill, I did so. If you can suggest a more reliable killboard we can use, then feel free to do so.
…and you asked me to point out the problem(s) with your data. If you want some from 2012 or earlier, you have to ask CCP, really…

Quote:
Red Frog don't lose many freighters. Given that we were looking at the numbers for only the Charon, it's hardly that surprising that they didn't lose any during the month of June, given how low their total losses are.

Ehm… are we looking at the same Red Frog?
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1447 - 2014-07-07 16:57:31 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Kal Murmur wrote:
I was asked to provide data from zkillboard or eve kill, I did so. If you can suggest a more reliable killboard we can use, then feel free to do so.
…and you asked me to point out the problem(s) with your data. If you want some from 2012 or earlier, you have to ask CCP, really…

Quote:
Red Frog don't lose many freighters. Given that we were looking at the numbers for only the Charon, it's hardly that surprising that they didn't lose any during the month of June, given how low their total losses are.

Ehm… are we looking at the same Red Frog?


Honestly, I was under the impression that all of Red Frog's Freighters were NPC alts anyway (to avoid war dec issues). So the kill board wouldn't be an accurate place to asess those numbers - you'd need to look at their internal reimbursement numbers.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Kal Murmur
Lazortits
#1448 - 2014-07-07 16:57:37 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Kal Murmur wrote:


Red Frog don't lose many freighters. Given that we were looking at the numbers for only the Charon, it's hardly that surprising that they didn't lose any during the month of June, given how low their total losses are.


So why are they immune from your Ganking Epidemic?


They aren't immune, as those figures showed despite their great record of safe hauling even they have seen a sizeable increase in losses.

Tippia wrote:
…and you asked me to point out the problem(s) with your data. If you want some from 2012 or earlier, you have to ask CCP, really…


So basically the only proof you'll accept is the proof you know we can't get?
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#1449 - 2014-07-07 16:59:22 UTC
Kal Murmur wrote:


They aren't immune, as those figures showed despite their great record of safe hauling even they have seen a sizeable increase in losses.



What?

You posted figures for June for (what I assume you meant to show) a huge number of Charon losses, but in that exact same timeframe Red Frog lost no ships other than cyno ships.

So, where is this sizeable increase?

Its not in the timeframe you quoted

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1450 - 2014-07-07 17:00:37 UTC
Kal Murmur wrote:
So basically the only proof you'll accept is the proof you know we can't get?
No, the proof I'll accept is something that has a unified and verifiable source — if you get a hold of a stast wonk at CCP, they will happily give you the numbers before 2013.

And again, are we looking at the same Red Frog? Because what I'm seeing doesn't match what you're saying.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1451 - 2014-07-07 17:01:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
As far as I'm aware, courier companies use independents (as in, not in the same corp) for the sole reason of protecting their ships.

Their real loses wouldn't be reflected accurately on any kill stats site.

But keep making **** up and then arguing over it like it's has any relevance whatsoever. Without all the total crap posting, this thread would have died after three pages.

Carry on, good people.

Ed~ De'Veldrin beat me to it. I need to learn to type faster.

Mr Epeen Cool
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1452 - 2014-07-07 17:02:42 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Kal Murmur wrote:
I was asked to provide data from zkillboard or eve kill, I did so. If you can suggest a more reliable killboard we can use, then feel free to do so.
…and you asked me to point out the problem(s) with your data. If you want some from 2012 or earlier, you have to ask CCP, really…

Quote:
Red Frog don't lose many freighters. Given that we were looking at the numbers for only the Charon, it's hardly that surprising that they didn't lose any during the month of June, given how low their total losses are.

Ehm… are we looking at the same Red Frog?


Honestly, I was under the impression that all of Red Frog's Freighters were NPC alts anyway (to avoid war dec issues). So the kill board wouldn't be an accurate place to asess those numbers - you'd need to look at their internal reimbursement numbers.

correct, the alts are also anonymous.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1453 - 2014-07-07 17:05:04 UTC
Toriessian wrote:
I should start flying freighters or ganking freighters. I have nothing to contribute to one of the better threadnaughts of the year.

I recommend flying orcas full of gank ships. That way it can be especially ironic if you are ganked.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1454 - 2014-07-07 17:07:47 UTC
Kal Murmur wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Kal Murmur wrote:
Source is zkillboard.
You mean the killboard that has no accurate stats for 2012 and earlier and which very obviously includes lots of non-ganks?


I was asked to provide data from zkillboard or eve kill, I did so. If you can suggest a more reliable killboard we can use, then feel free to do so.

i wasn't aware reliable killboard stats didn't go back very far vOv the numbers you've provided from that source are not really valid due to the concerns jonah and tip've raised anyway
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#1455 - 2014-07-07 17:10:12 UTC
What was the point again?

Its been somewhat lost in the KB waving

Oh yeah, you dont like people RPing in an RPG, right , gotcha

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Kal Murmur
Lazortits
#1456 - 2014-07-07 17:14:28 UTC
Absolutely agree that given Red Frogs use of alts, their numbers won't have any relevance to this discussion.

As for the reliability or otherwise of zkillboards stats, I just used what I was challenged to use. If someone from CCP wants to chime in with more accurate figures that would be great, but otherwise I can only go on the data we have available. It's amusing though that the accuracy of the data only started being challenged once it showed a conclusion contrary to the one people were hoping for.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1457 - 2014-07-07 17:14:55 UTC
So, the data you posted about freighters just reinforces that your data source is incomplete. And your methods are deeply, deeply flawed.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1458 - 2014-07-07 17:16:48 UTC
Kal Murmur wrote:
It's amusing though that the accuracy of the data only started being challenged once it showed a conclusion contrary to the one people were hoping for.


What's amusing to me is that you think there were less than six hundred suicide ganks for the entire year of 2009. That disqualifies your entire set of data by itself.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1459 - 2014-07-07 17:21:39 UTC
Kal Murmur wrote:
Absolutely agree that given Red Frogs use of alts, their numbers won't have any relevance to this discussion.

As for the reliability or otherwise of zkillboards stats, I just used what I was challenged to use. If someone from CCP wants to chime in with more accurate figures that would be great, but otherwise I can only go on the data we have available. It's amusing though that the accuracy of the data only started being challenged once it showed a conclusion contrary to the one people were hoping for.

'people'? i said i thought it was a good source, you provided numbers that weren't relevant, and people other than me questioned the accuracy of the source. don't go accusing people of discounting data solely because they don't like it when they have given good reasons it might be invalid. it's a fallacy and it's a dishonesty on your part.
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#1460 - 2014-07-07 17:22:47 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Interesting....

According to the same KB Red Frog hasnt lost a single freighter in that time frame

Which is odd, as statistically you think that as high users of them, they would be garunteed to have lost at least one

Hmm
perhaps theres something amiss here...


I do believe Red Frog pilots fly under npc corps to avoid war decs. I assume that would be why it shows no losses.