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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Zotken Mikakka
Memes and Shitstack Emporium
Goonswarm Federation
#781 - 2014-06-23 11:14:06 UTC
Grobalobobob Bob wrote:
It just comes back down to the whole bumping thing. Bumping should be effective ONLY ships of /- a percentage equal or greater size and mass of the ship you're bumping.

It's like a kid on a surfboard bumping an oil tanker.. it's just ridiculous. Really, you should need something the same size as a freighter to bump a freighter, anything smaller should just glance off like it doesn't exist.




so all you want .. is having the gankers buy a freighter to bump a freighter... ^^ born salesman right there folks!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#782 - 2014-06-23 11:21:11 UTC
Grobalobobob Bob wrote:
It just comes back down to the whole bumping thing. Bumping should be effective ONLY ships of /- a percentage equal or greater size and mass of the ship you're bumping.

It's like a kid on a surfboard bumping an oil tanker.. it's just ridiculous. Really, you should need something the same size as a freighter to bump a freighter, anything smaller should just glance off like it doesn't exist.


We use machs, they are just as big as carriers.
Raziel Walker
NPC Tax Evasion Corp
#783 - 2014-06-23 11:49:51 UTC
Grobalobobob Bob wrote:

It's like a kid on a surfboard bumping an oil tanker.. it's just ridiculous.


Please try to imagine a kid on a invulnerable surfboard going at a fraction of lightspeed and hitting an equally invulnerable freighter. The collision will contain enough energy for a nice bump. No idea how much energy will be transferred to the freighter though.
Rick Therapist
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#784 - 2014-06-23 12:32:48 UTC
And James 315 said to his agents:

“The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the selfishness and greed of evil carebears. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds a new player through the wickedness of hisec and teaches him the Code, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of a lost child. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy the Code. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#785 - 2014-06-23 12:38:30 UTC
Grobalobobob Bob wrote:
It just comes back down to the whole bumping thing. Bumping should be effective ONLY ships of /- a percentage equal or greater size and mass of the ship you're bumping.

It's like a kid on a surfboard bumping an oil tanker.. it's just ridiculous. Really, you should need something the same size as a freighter to bump a freighter, anything smaller should just glance off like it doesn't exist.


a mach is the closest equivalent to an iowa class battleship ingame. A typical supertanker has 100,000 shaft horsepower, an Iowa has 220,000 shaft horsepower. ie an Iowa can push* a supertanker backwards even if the supertanker was full ahead.

Its just not at all ridiculous imo to be shoved off the gate by a couple of machs.



*yes I understand that other details would get in the way of this experiment, like structural failure followed by break up and sinking, but I can't imagine freighter pilots want more accuracy...
Spectral Tiger
#786 - 2014-06-23 12:38:48 UTC
Rick Therapist wrote:
And James 315 said to his agents:

“The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the selfishness and greed of evil carebears. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds a new player through the wickedness of hisec and teaches him the Code, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of a lost child. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy the Code. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."



Sort of thing I'd expect a gang of thugs to say with the leader having a god complex. But then of course you're role playing that way anyway. It's just that to some people it doesn't actually look like RP.

Hence the confusion to what high sec suicide ganking squads are all about.
Grobalobobob Bob
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#787 - 2014-06-23 12:41:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Grobalobobob Bob
Machs are a nice ship - sadly I cannot get any info on actual ship lengths, but I can get the mass though.

Macharial seems to come out at 94.68m kg in mass compared to a Providence weighing in at approx 900,000,000 kg.


Therefore, at approx 10.5% of the mass, a Mach should simply glance off a providence.

Interesting about the bumping energy thing, but in honesty when you have 'invulnerable' objects hitting each other, it's all about mass rebounding rather than absorbing the collision energies, especially since they have shields. The shield is somewhat of a massive energy field generator, hence why a ship bounces off stuff, rather than colliding like a dart into a dartboard - also similar to trying to force the two north poles of a very powerful magnet together, they divert rather than come together unless forced with extreme pressure, and it's unlikely something the size of a providence, and machariel could be forced together unless they experience a head on collision in warp. so each ship glancing each other at 500 m/s isn't going to do anything other than throw the smaller mass at a strange angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9m-hHg0gFk

Interesting video, now make one of the magnets 100x bigger or dense, and float them in space - it's easy to digest the concept that the smaller magnet would be flung headlong in a random direction.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#788 - 2014-06-23 12:53:05 UTC
Spectral Tiger wrote:

It's just that to some people it doesn't actually look like RP.

Hence the confusion to what high sec suicide ganking squads are all about.


If "some people" can't understand RP in an RPG, then I'm not really surprised they are confused.

If forgers and malefactors are put to death by the secular power, there is much more reason for excommunicating and even putting to death one convicted of heresy.
Thomas Aquinas

Praise be James 315 and prayers and peace upon Omir Sarakusa.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#789 - 2014-06-23 12:55:49 UTC
Grobalobobob Bob wrote:
Machs are a nice ship - sadly I cannot get any info on actual ship lengths, but I can get the mass though.

Macharial seems to come out at 94.68m kg in mass compared to a Providence weighing in at approx 900,000,000 kg.


Therefore, at approx 10.5% of the mass, a Mach should simply glance off a providence.

Interesting about the bumping energy thing, but in honesty when you have 'invulnerable' objects hitting each other, it's all about mass rebounding rather than absorbing the collision energies, especially since they have shields. The shield is somewhat of a massive energy field generator, hence why a ship bounces off stuff, rather than colliding like a dart into a dartboard - also similar to trying to force the two north poles of a very powerful magnet together, they divert rather than come together unless forced with extreme pressure, and it's unlikely something the size of a providence, and machariel could be forced together unless they experience a head on collision in warp. so each ship glancing each other at 500 m/s isn't going to do anything other than throw the smaller mass at a strange angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9m-hHg0gFk

Interesting video, now make one of the magnets 100x bigger or dense, and float them in space - it's easy to digest the concept that the smaller magnet would be flung headlong in a random direction in the lab, and moreso in space.



You are aware that EVE is a video game, not real life. And you are also aware that in the EVE universe, ships have these magical, physics altering Warp Drives that turns space into a literal SEA of stars lol right? Trying to use a real life physics reason in a video game balance discussion is dumb.

You'd think that things like how space itself in EVE online changes color from one Empire to the next would have tipped you off as to how unreal EVE is (if it worked like that in real life, every thing in Russia would have a red tinge, then you'd get on a plane, land in Ireland and be shocked that everything including the beer is Green).
Soylent Jade
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#790 - 2014-06-23 13:27:12 UTC
Grobalobobob Bob wrote:
Machs are a nice ship - sadly I cannot get any info on actual ship lengths, but I can get the mass though.

Macharial seems to come out at 94.68m kg in mass compared to a Providence weighing in at approx 900,000,000 kg.


Therefore, at approx 10.5% of the mass, a Mach should simply glance off a providence.

Interesting about the bumping energy thing, but in honesty when you have 'invulnerable' objects hitting each other, it's all about mass rebounding rather than absorbing the collision energies, especially since they have shields. The shield is somewhat of a massive energy field generator, hence why a ship bounces off stuff, rather than colliding like a dart into a dartboard - also similar to trying to force the two north poles of a very powerful magnet together, they divert rather than come together unless forced with extreme pressure, and it's unlikely something the size of a providence, and machariel could be forced together unless they experience a head on collision in warp. so each ship glancing each other at 500 m/s isn't going to do anything other than throw the smaller mass at a strange angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9m-hHg0gFk

Interesting video, now make one of the magnets 100x bigger or dense, and float them in space - it's easy to digest the concept that the smaller magnet would be flung headlong in a random direction.


I can't log into the game at work, unfortunately, so I'm going off other sources...
A 100MN MWD adds 50,000,000 kg of mass to a ship, pushing that Mach up to 144,680,000 kg, so about 1/6th of the mass...hardly a surfboard hitting an oil tanker. A properly fitted bumping Mach with a pilot that has good nav skills should do well over 1000 m/s, not 500 m/s. It can certainly alter the heading of a freighter enough that it couldn't align to warp...

Making hisec better...one Catalyst at a time

minerbumping.com
Revis Owen
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#791 - 2014-06-23 13:29:27 UTC
Noragli wrote:
Many of those ganked and pod killed were in empty freighters, or shuttles, or pretty much any ship is targetted just for the sake of getting a kill and hoping to kill a pod full of implants.

I wonder how many cancel their subscription.


However many it is, apparently new subscriptions by bots, bot-aspirants, and carebears are far more than enough to replace those few.

The sustained amount of kills over time make this plainly obvious.

Agent of the New Order http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.
Revis Owen
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#792 - 2014-06-23 13:41:33 UTC
Ikaros TypeAlpha wrote:
Well GM ninjapirate did assist in the writing of the code, and because of it there has been a fall out of subs since you know supplying the market or making isk is bad, mmkay


Supplying the market (and getting a fair price) by players at their keyboards is one thing. Flooding the market (and depressing prices) by bots/bot-aspirants grinding 24/7 is quite another.

Fall off of subs by the latter, rage-quitting because their bot ships/bot-behavior isn't suited for the dangers of space? I sleep peacefully with that.

Agent of the New Order http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.
Grobalobobob Bob
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#793 - 2014-06-23 13:46:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Grobalobobob Bob
Soylent Jade wrote:


I can't log into the game at work, unfortunately, so I'm going off other sources...
A 100MN MWD adds 50,000,000 kg of mass to a ship, pushing that Mach up to 144,680,000 kg, so about 1/6th of the mass...hardly a surfboard hitting an oil tanker. A properly fitted bumping Mach with a pilot that has good nav skills should do well over 1000 m/s, not 500 m/s. It can certainly alter the heading of a freighter enough that it couldn't align to warp...


Propelling an object quicker does not alter the inherent physical mass, physical mass is a constant - push a button and your titan has the equivalent mass of a neutron star.. it's silly. It can only add some form of 'momentum' perhaps.

Quote:
The mass (the true mass which physicists actually deal with when they calculate something concerning relativistic particles) does not change with velocity. The mass (the true mass!) is an intrinsic property of a body, and it does not depends on the observer's frame of reference. I strongly suggest to read this popular article by Lev Okun, where he calls the concept of relativistic mass a "pedagogical virus".

What actually changes at relativistic speeds is the dynamical law that relates momentum and energy depend with the velocity (which was already written). Let me put it this way: trying to ascribe the modification of the dynamical law to a changing mass is the same as trying to explain non-Euclidean geometry by redefining π!


Goes back to my original theory that to apply enough force to make the ships actually expend enough energy to begin to divert the bigger mass, you'd still need to have a head on collision at warp.

Then as someone pointed out, applying real life physics to eve, is just dumb. But then one could argue the same as saying IT'S LIKE IT IS BECAUSE A WIZARD DID IT, ergo, it's WoW in space. Twisted
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#794 - 2014-06-23 14:01:00 UTC
Grobalobobob Bob wrote:
IT IS BECAUSE A WIZARD DID IT, ergo, it's WoW in space. Twisted


There's no wizards in WoW

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Revis Owen
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#795 - 2014-06-23 14:13:20 UTC
And I will execute great piloting upon them with furious bumps; and they shall know that I am the Agent of James 315, when I shall lay my Stabber upon them.

Agent of the New Order http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.
Grobalobobob Bob
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#796 - 2014-06-23 14:21:07 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Grobalobobob Bob wrote:
IT IS BECAUSE A WIZARD DID IT, ergo, it's WoW in space. Twisted


There's no wizards in WoW


OFC there is, Blizzard hated it that their company sounded like Wizard - Blizzard / Wizard.. so renamed them to: Shaman, Priest, Mage, Druid, Paladin... Oh wait, we have paladins in EVE to! I might subscribe to WoW, just to try wielding a Tachyon Beam Laser II, and go gank hogger.

LolLol
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#797 - 2014-06-23 14:57:07 UTC
Grobalobobob Bob wrote:

OFC there is, Blizzard hated it that their company sounded like Wizard - Blizzard / Wizard.. so renamed them to: Shaman, Priest, Mage, Druid, Paladin...


None of those things are Wizards

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Elmonky
Alternative Royal Dynamics
GameTheory
#798 - 2014-06-23 15:01:43 UTC
Revis Owen wrote:
And I will execute great piloting upon them with furious bumps; and they shall know that I am the Agent of James 315, when I shall lay my Stabber upon them.



Somehow that managed to sound way more erotic than it should have
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#799 - 2014-06-23 15:05:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Riyria Twinpeaks
Grobalobobob Bob wrote:
Soylent Jade wrote:


I can't log into the game at work, unfortunately, so I'm going off other sources...
A 100MN MWD adds 50,000,000 kg of mass to a ship, pushing that Mach up to 144,680,000 kg, so about 1/6th of the mass...hardly a surfboard hitting an oil tanker. A properly fitted bumping Mach with a pilot that has good nav skills should do well over 1000 m/s, not 500 m/s. It can certainly alter the heading of a freighter enough that it couldn't align to warp...


Propelling an object quicker does not alter the inherent physical mass, physical mass is a constant - push a button and your titan has the equivalent mass of a neutron star.. it's silly. It can only add some form of 'momentum' perhaps.

Quote:
The mass (the true mass which physicists actually deal with when they calculate something concerning relativistic particles) does not change with velocity. The mass (the true mass!) is an intrinsic property of a body, and it does not depends on the observer's frame of reference. I strongly suggest to read this popular article by Lev Okun, where he calls the concept of relativistic mass a "pedagogical virus".

What actually changes at relativistic speeds is the dynamical law that relates momentum and energy depend with the velocity (which was already written). Let me put it this way: trying to ascribe the modification of the dynamical law to a changing mass is the same as trying to explain non-Euclidean geometry by redefining π!


Goes back to my original theory that to apply enough force to make the ships actually expend enough energy to begin to divert the bigger mass, you'd still need to have a head on collision at warp.

Then as someone pointed out, applying real life physics to eve, is just dumb. But then one could argue the same as saying IT'S LIKE IT IS BECAUSE A WIZARD DID IT, ergo, it's WoW in space. Twisted


If the engine to propel the object has an effect on the mass of the object, then yes, it alters the mass. Warp drives, thus also micro warp drives, work by bending spacetime, it's perfectly conceivable they can have an effect on the mass of objects.
Eve ships also have this property inertia modifier, which, the larger the ship, the more reduces the ship's mass, in relative terms.

For example, taking inertia modifiers into account:
- Providence (0.0625 modifier) has an inert mass of ~56 million kg before skills
- Machariel (0.084 modifier) has an inert mass of about 8 million kg before skills. If you include the active MWD, it has an inert mass of about (94m kg + 50m kg) * 0.084 = ~12 million kg
=> MWD'ing Machariel has a little over 20% of the inert mass of the Providence. Inertia is the important part for these collisions.

Before you say the inertia modifier is stupid and should be done away with: Imagine the align times of large ships!

Now put values of these proportions in here:
https://phet.colorado.edu/sims/collision-lab/collision-lab_en.html
For example a 1.2kg object flying toward a stationary 5.6kg object.

And you'll see that a significant momentum transfer from the smaller, fast object to the larger, formerly stationary object happens.
:)
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#800 - 2014-06-23 15:58:49 UTC
It is not by strength that one prevails;
those who oppose the New Order will be broken.
The Agents will pew pew the heavens;
the Supreme Protector will judge the ends of Highsec.

Evil RatKid