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Why do people ***** about Incarna?
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Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#81 - 2011-12-05 16:58:10 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
Tippia wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
If you read what I was saying you would know that what you've said, while true. has nothing to do with it
Riiiight…

People being moved off FiS teams to work on WiS has nothing to do with the complaint that people are being moved off FiS to work on WiS instead, thus incurring an opportunity cost in terms of FiS features. Yes, that's logical… Roll

But sure, that's fine by me: pretty much every time you post something, you provide more and more examples to corroborate my claim.


Start year: 100 eve devs all working on FiS
2nd year: 200 eve devs 150 working in FiS , 50 working on WiS
3rd year: 200 devs working on eve, 50 people are pulled from the FiS teams to work on WiS

100 devs working on FiS
100 devs working on WiS, with 50 of those member stolen from FiS development.

As you can see the number of devs working on ever never changed.


Then when CCP goes back to old focus. It goes like this.

lose 100 devs, left with 100 devs all working on FiS

OH LOOK! after firing so many devs, they didn't actully hire anyone new to work on FiS. So they have the same number of devs before as they do now, becuase of the massive lay offs.


And those numbers are complete BS.
Arguing using made up numbers will not help.

Also most of the FiS devs that were left were working on Carbon, which was only needed for WiS, so it was technically not FiS development.
Taint
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#82 - 2011-12-05 17:02:20 UTC
Lil Nippy wrote:

Incarna is not really 'over' yet. Incarna could still very well have been the nail in the coffin for EVE. I rarely see more than 35k online when it used to regularly be 40-50K pre Incarna, only time will tell if CCP can bounce back from it.


And thats a bad thing ? moa space or less people on the server i say.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#83 - 2011-12-05 17:03:04 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Carbon, which was only needed for WiS, so it was technically not FiS development.


You have no idea what Carbon really is do you?
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2011-12-05 23:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Teinyhr wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Carbon, which was only needed for WiS, so it was technically not FiS development.


You have no idea what Carbon really is do you?



Bingo. plus correction they in fact have more people working on carbon and Dust than ever before.


and my number were not "made up" They were estimations, but they protray the truth better than going to getting the eact numbers. The point is tippia wouldn't listen to basic logic so I had to spell it out with number to illitrate a point which is know to be fact.


There are no more devs working on FiS for this expansion than there was in the past 2 years. The only time ins't wasn't truw is the 6 months leading up to the incarna expansion.


PURE FACT

The reasons for countless features being forgotten until this expansion is not the number of devs working on eve, why can't you people see that.

And the number don't back up the idea that either. When dominion as made, there were MORE devs working on FiS than there are now!

How does my number being made up to illustrate a point make that any less true.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Niko Takahashi
Yoshitomi Group
#85 - 2011-12-05 23:11:29 UTC
Morganta wrote:
actually this is the only thread bitching about incarna on the front page


so the question to you is, why are you dredging this **** up?


Pretty much anything possible in multiple variations have been said back in July and August.

We are already in another expansion and the game has taken a direction that I personally like. So you're 6 months too late and stop trolling.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#86 - 2011-12-05 23:23:05 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
and my number were not "made up" They were estimations
I.e. made up. Want some actual numbers to play with? Try this.

But you're apparently still not understanding what I'm saying since you keep arguing something completely different and in the process only manage to provide further examples of exactly what I'm saying.
Quote:
As you can see the number of devs working on ever never changed.
Congratulations. That's the whole complaint in a box: in spite of increasing numbers of EVE devs, FiS isn't getting any more attention — it is in fact having people pulled off to work on WiS. If you're going to use made-up numbers to prove something, make sure it's not the point you're arguing against.

You said it yourself: 100 of your made-up devs were working on WiS instead of FiS — 50 of them explicitly stolen from the FiS dev teams. It incurs an opportunity cost in terms of FiS features, and people are complaining about it. The fact that you keep demonstrating this very point shows that you haven't understood what it is you're (supposedly) arguing against.
Quote:
There are no more devs working on FiS for this expansion than there was in the past 2 years. The only time ins't wasn't truw is the 6 months leading up to the incarna expansion.

PURE INVENTION
Fixed. See devblog.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2011-12-05 23:44:11 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
It's like your saying if capcom is making megaman 11, and then hires 20 more people to make a street fighter game. it's ok to complain that those 20 people COULD be making the megaman better thus the megaman title is being neglected.



But it's not, it's ok for a company to hiree MORE people to work on other prjects. As long as they don't decrease the number of people hired to work on the other games.

In this case I ask you a simple question.

Are there more, or less devs working on FiS features right now, compared to a year ago.




and yes I know the dev blog, but that was only for a 6 month period, you're saying FiS has been bad due to the past 3 years of WiS work to which I say, your full of S**t.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#88 - 2011-12-05 23:48:40 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
It's like your saying if capcom is making megaman 11, and then hires 20 more people to make a street fighter game. it's ok to complain that those 20 people COULD be making the megaman better thus the megaman title is being neglected.
Finally. Roll
Quote:
But it's not, it's ok for a company to hiree MORE people to work on other prjects. As long as they don't decrease the number of people hired to work on the other games.
Except for one thing: they didn't just hire more people — they also diverted resources away from FiS to work on WiS.
Quote:
and yes I know the dev blog, but that was only for a 6 month period
Doesn't matter. It's what started (or perhaps more accurately reinforced) the :18 months: feeling, which then worked as a solid foundation for the bitching about WiS.
Quote:
you're saying FiS has been bad due to the past 3 years of WiS work
No.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2011-12-06 02:14:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
It's like your saying if capcom is making megaman 11, and then hires 20 more people to make a street fighter game. it's ok to complain that those 20 people COULD be making the megaman better thus the megaman title is being neglected.
Finally. Roll
Quote:
But it's not, it's ok for a company to hiree MORE people to work on other prjects. As long as they don't decrease the number of people hired to work on the other games.
Except for one thing: they didn't just hire more people — they also diverted resources away from FiS to work on WiS.
Quote:
and yes I know the dev blog, but that was only for a 6 month period
Doesn't matter. It's what started (or perhaps more accurately reinforced) the :18 months: feeling, which then worked as a solid foundation for the bitching about WiS.
Quote:
you're saying FiS has been bad due to the past 3 years of WiS work
No.


Right so we agree it's those 6 months that gave the community the "feeling" that WiS somehow the reason for 2-3 years of stagnation. When it fact it's just a feeling, and other than 1 expansion that was focused on WiS, they have never taken resources off of FiS. In fact they have only gotten more and more devs working on FiS in the past 3 years even WITH the devs taking off of FiS for a single expansion.

Giving CCP NO EXCUSE, for feature abandonment over the past 3 years.

Saying "oh well if they weren't making WiS eve would be awesome" is just a poor excuse to point attention away from CCP ******* up without having any excuse, but they didn't listen to the community.



They made great expansion with 1/5 the devs back in the day, they could of still made a HUGE fiS expansion along side Incarna at the SAME TIME. With the number of devs they had on both projects. The fact they didn't, is mind boggling.

because it's all about focus and listening to your community, not about how many people you have a project. if you make a ton of FiS improvements no one asked for, no one will remember any work had been done.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2011-12-06 02:16:17 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Tippia wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
It's like your saying if capcom is making megaman 11, and then hires 20 more people to make a street fighter game. it's ok to complain that those 20 people COULD be making the megaman better thus the megaman title is being neglected.
Finally. Roll


you act like I didn't know you were saying this all along. When in fact I'm telling you any sane person would never have this view.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#91 - 2011-12-06 02:28:48 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
Right so we agree it's those 6 months that gave the community the "feeling" that WiS somehow the reason for 2-3 years of stagnation.
No. People had that feeling long before those six months, and the feeling didn't subside after that either. The blog simply confirmed what people had already been guessing for quite some time.
Quote:
When it fact it's just a feeling, and other than 1 expansion that was focused on WiS, they have never taken resources off of FiS.
…except that they've quite explicitly told us otherwise, and did so before that expansion. So no, that's not a fact.
Quote:
Giving CCP NO EXCUSE, for feature abandonment over the past 3 years.

Saying "oh well if they weren't making WiS eve would be awesome" is just a poor excuse to point attention away from CCP ******* up without having any excuse, but they didn't listen to the community.
…and you're stilling missing the whole point here:

Q: Why do people ***** about incarna?
A: Because of the opportunity cost it incurred in terms of FiS features.

In trying to counter that claim, you have demonstrated that, yes, WiS did indeed pull people away from FiS in order to work on WiS. Whether or not having those people work on FiS as well would have resulted in more/better FiS feature is of almost zero relevance.
Quote:
you act like I didn't know you were saying this all along. When in fact I'm telling you any sane person would never have this view.
…and yet it's the answer to the OP's question, and you've apparently still having problems getting that.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2011-12-06 02:49:18 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
"No. People had that feeling long before those six months, and the feeling didn't subside after that either"

THAT WHAT IM SAYING! that's not true, they had like 20 people on it for 2 years, then hired 40 people to work on it, then took about 40 people off of eve to get WiS and FiS into one game!

In never hurt FiS development EVER. And honestly were done, I'm not going to throw facts at you just to have you pretend like I'm talking about something completely unrelated.
Quote:
In trying to counter that claim, you have demonstrated that, yes, WiS did indeed pull people away from FiS in order to work on WiS. Whether or not having those people work on FiS as well would have resulted in more/better FiS feature is of almost zero relevance.


That's NOT WHAT I'M SAYING

I'm saying that the if the people still working on FiS were ACTUALLY DOING A GOOD JOB, then they culd of made WiS and FiS AT THE SAME TIME. There is no reason for a lack of real FiS change in incarna, they had more devs than ever DISPITE the devs taken to the WiS project, still left workong on FiS.

GET MY POINT OF VIEW THROUGH YOU THICK SKULL.

If you just said you disagree that would be one thing. But your defense seems to be to basically not read a word I write, and then act like I'm saying stuff I'm not even saying! How is it you don't get what I'm saying! I'm only posted my point of view like a dozen time! And you STILL DON'T GET IT.

There were more devs working on FiS in incarna than there were devs working in FiS in Rev2. The G** D*** FACT of the matter , is there is no reason why, IGNORING WiS development, those devs still working on FiS during the WiS *incarna* expansion could not of made everything in Crucible in the 6 weeks they had to work on FiS while the WiS teams were making the incarna expansion.

And all of the older expansion, which were full of content , with a much smaller number of people working on FiS, were able to deliver.


Now if you disagree, and think that 80 devs working on FiS can't make as much content as 30 devs working on FiS features, just because the company has a separate team of devs working on A different game, please, be my G** D*** Guest.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#93 - 2011-12-06 02:57:21 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
In never hurt FiS development EVER.
…and the funny thing is that this doesn't change the answer to the question.
Quote:
And honestly were done, I'm not going to throw facts at you just to have you pretend like I'm talking about something completely unrelated.
Since you keep avoiding the actual question in the OP, it's not just a matter of “pretending”.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2011-12-06 03:06:57 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Tippia wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
In never hurt FiS development EVER.
…and the funny thing is that this doesn't change the answer to the question.
Quote:
And honestly were done, I'm not going to throw facts at you just to have you pretend like I'm talking about something completely unrelated.
Since you keep avoiding the actual question in the OP, it's not just a matter of “pretending”.


ok I'll answer thew question in the OP.

People ***** about Incarna hurting FiS development because they are wholly misinformed , make incorrect assumptions about game development, and blame pulling FiS devs from eve to being why less content could be made for FiS without actully taking into consideration what a bad job CCP had been doing already.

And because it's the easy simple thing to be ignorant about, and makes bitter vets feel justified in saying that WiS was terrible for eve. In the same way they complained about how work on the orca, Eve gate, or New art assets, is the reason for lag, and every penny spent on an art dev, or anything unrelated to FiS gameplay distracts from the development of FiS Gameplay content that the devs hired to do that are able deliver.

In other words, they ***** about incrana because they ignorant monkeys with low IQ that want an easy target to explain and justify their sad, pitiful, uninformed, points of view.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#95 - 2011-12-06 03:22:19 UTC
See? Was that so hard? Blink
Majuan Shuo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#96 - 2011-12-06 04:08:16 UTC
PirateSarge wrote:
stuff


what a ******* ****.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
NickyYo
modro
Northern Coalition.
#97 - 2011-12-06 05:13:59 UTC  |  Edited by: NickyYo
PirateSarge wrote:
I can't get over the constant whining I was hearing about Incarna that I cannot fathom the facepalms I'm doing. No, the micro-transactions stuff that's been around forever I can understand, but they are not forcing you to buy them.


It's called an unfair advantage for other players!! We don't want our game to look CHEAP!!
Just look what happened to Age of Conan..

EDIT:
And also :) Incarna was i think 6 years in development and all we got was a poxy little room with a crappy graphics engine that screws over your graphics card. On top of all that s-h-i-t we got a cloths store of MT items! Cloths that only you will see in the station environment.

Anyways MT and that is never a good thing! and if it were introduced i would biomass my character and quit.

..
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#98 - 2011-12-06 14:56:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Quote:
and my number were not "made up" They were estimations


ITT fabrications take on a new meaning.

Quote:
In other words, they ***** about incrana because they ignorant monkeys with low IQ that want an easy target to explain and justify their sad, pitiful, uninformed, points of view.


In your mind they do. In this thread and most others they mostly ***** for the reason I gave; long time wait, small unfinished product.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
leavwiz
AWE Corporation
Intrepid Crossing
#99 - 2011-12-06 23:55:41 UTC
Lil Nippy wrote:
Well lets see...

- Got rid of station spinning

- Added the worst feature to probably ever be implimented into this game, "station" walking (a 10x10 prison cell with a flat screen)

- A micro transaction store for doll clothes that only you can see...fail

- Dozens of performance issues for laptops and ATI users

- Disresepectful dev blogs and newsletters

- Was hyped up to be an immense, spectacular expansion but added no new content to the game whatsoever outside of the prison cell

Incarna is not really 'over' yet. Incarna could still very well have been the nail in the coffin for EVE. I rarely see more than 35k online when it used to regularly be 40-50K pre Incarna, only time will tell if CCP can bounce back from it.


can only imagine how many people uncheck the CQ option just to avoid the start up lag. the player on line count during my play times is down 20 - 25% and in my high sec corp and ally corps its down 90%. 3 consecutive updates with minimal content for much of the playerbase is reflected in the unsubs. incarna was just an easy target because of the wasted effort on WIS that turned out to be no such thing. sorry most of the posters complaining about incarna do so with justification.