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Why do people ***** about Incarna?
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Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#61 - 2011-12-03 21:07:18 UTC
I think I'll just blame WoD for all of it. Much easier that way, and I don't care for the concept anyway.
Bane Loppknow
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2011-12-03 22:09:22 UTC
My biggest beef with Incarna was the fact that they spent months promising how awesome it was going to be, and then we got it... and it was a single room. Not even one for each race, just one. single. room. The only other major thing Incarna did was the awesome turrets and Maller remodel, which were infinitely more awesome than the "main" feature.

Plus they removed ship spinning, have ******* RIDICULOUS prices in Nex (Prices that screamed WE NEED MONEYS GIMME GIMME GIMME), completely broke any sense of immersion or scale with the CQ ship hangar view (Go ahead, its still there. Go into Captain's Quarters, get in a frigate, look at it. Now get in a battleship. LOL MAGIC HANGAR). The controls for moving around in our little box are ******* awful. Oh, and CQ fried computers.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of Incarna. I would love to undock, hop out of my ship, and go hit up some black market dealers in the station for some boosters or maybe assassinate another capsuleer as he sets up some mercs the bomb. But that's not what we got. We got a half-polished turd that should never have made it onto Tranquility. Incarna was a disaster because it wasn't ready for launch. It should have stayed in production for at least another expansion cycle, and we'd have made due with awesome turrets and maller reskin. Then again, we probably wouldn't have gotten all the awesome stuff in Crucible if Incarna hadn't been such a huge flop, so maybe it's for the best. Still, I'd like to see Incarna get finished. EVE has too many unfinished features.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#63 - 2011-12-03 22:30:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Kuronaga wrote:
Also, the reason you two can't agree on a damn thing is because Huang is tryin to make the greater point, and Tippia is busy back at square one trying to argue little technicalities cause he can't stand losing an argument.
No, the reason we can't agree is because I'm trying to answer the OP's question and MotherMoon isn't: I'm explaining why people are bitching about Incarna; he's discussing completely different.

Q: Why do people ***** about incarna?
Me: Because it came at a high opportunity cost in terms of FiS features.
Him: No! People ***** about the lacklustre FiS we got.

So not only doesn't he address the question; he “refutes” the answer by completely changing the topic (and in doing so provides further examples of the answer he supposedly refutes).
Kuronaga
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#64 - 2011-12-03 22:36:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Kuronaga wrote:
Also, the reason you two can't agree on a damn thing is because Huang is tryin to make the greater point, and Tippia is busy back at square one trying to argue little technicalities cause he can't stand losing an argument.
No, the reason we can't agree is because I'm trying to answer the OP's question and MotherMoon isn't: I'm explaining why people are bitching about Incarna; he's discussing completely different.

Q: Why do people ***** about incarna?
Me: Because it came at a high opportunity cost in terms of FiS features.
Him: No! People ***** about the lacklustre FiS we got.

So not only doesn't he address the question; he “refutes” the answer by completely changing the topic (and in doing so provides further examples of the answer he supposedly refutes).


LALALALALALA no ones listening to you

go argue with a wall.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#65 - 2011-12-03 22:38:49 UTC
Kuronaga wrote:
LALALALALALA no ones I'm not listening to you
I noticed. You would have been able to spot your error far more easily if you did.
Quote:
go argue with a wall.
My guess is I already am… Roll
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2011-12-04 00:06:18 UTC
Quote:
the bitching may be about opportunity cost or whatever the hell else you wanna call it, but ccp has done this crap from the dawn of time and people are just in denial about it.


OMG a vice of reason!

F tippa she's too new school, she has forgetting that eve as been doing the same **** for years, dispite how many devs they have on projects. Which by the way during incarna was the 2nd highest it had ever been! even after you counted the eve devs taken to WiS.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2011-12-04 00:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Corina Jarr wrote:
I think I'll just blame WoD for all of it. Much easier that way, and I don't care for the concept anyway.



ding ding ding

a team of CCP making WoD. The team was made by bring on more people. Thus not taking away from Fis features.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#68 - 2011-12-04 00:16:30 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
Quote:
the bitching may be about opportunity cost or whatever the hell else you wanna call it, but ccp has done this crap from the dawn of time and people are just in denial about it.
OMG a vice of reason!

F tippa she's too new school, she has forgetting that eve as been doing the same **** for years, dispite how many devs they have on projects. Which by the way during incarna was the 2nd highest it had ever been! even after you counted the eve devs taken to WiS.
…and you're still ignoring the actual question being asked, and you're still trying to dismiss the answer by changing the topic.

Wow. Ugh
Quote:
a team of eve making WoD. The team was made by bring on more people. Thus not taking away from Fis features.
You're still quite incorrect about that one, by the way. Teams were indeed put to work on WiS instead of FiS.

Oh, and just as a point of interest: if 22 was the second highest, how many were the highest and when was that?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#69 - 2011-12-04 00:27:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Tippia wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
where are our treaties ccp?
Where is our 5th sub system?
Put aside to focus on WiS. You know, one of the opportunities that weren't afforded due to the cost of making Incarna.


The biggest time-sponge in the last two years from what I've seen has been the Carbon project. This was a necessary use of resources to refactor the EVE source code: the devs have told us time and time again that there are portions of the code that they refuse to touch because no-one understands it: there was a vast technical debt which the Carbonisation project set out to remedy.

Carbon was heavily intertwined with WiS/WOD, but to blame WiS/WOD for Carbon is to put the cart before the horse. What made it possible for Crucible to be such a kick-arse release in 6 weeks is the work that went into Carbon.

The whining about Incarna boils down to a bunch of players judging a book by its cover, along with a lack of communication from CCP about what direction they were taking the game, where they were up to, and where they were going next. Yes, Incarna came out with 1 CQ, and a teensy selection of items in the NeX. CCP told us they were releasing the other 3 CQs "Real Soon Now" but ended up getting buried by the amount of work required to prepare that content: the whining about "OMG ONLY 1 CQ" comes down to CCP flubbing the release, and players not listening to the devs statements about "more coming soon". The whining about NeX comes down to players not listening to CCP's statements on their approach to virtual goods, along with a laughable reaction to CCP Zulu's poorly worded essay about $1000 jeans: the people who complained "I don't buy $1000 jeans" missed the point of a luxury goods store. NeX is Gucci, not the Two Dollar Shop. The purpose of the NeX is for people to show off how obscenely space-rich they are. Hell, I've written an essay on this issue.

The opportunity cost of building Carbon was a lot of stuff that didn't happen the way the players wanted it to happen. The reward of building Carbon is that CCP can now build a kick-arse expansion in 6 weeks, leaving a month or two spare each cycle to revisit old mechanisms, overhaul dead horses that are well and truly flogged, and introduce both DUST 514 and Incarna content without detracting from the rest of the game.

It would be nice if people could stop whining about NeX being a poorly implemented "micro-transaction" store. It is a virtual luxury goods store, just like Gucci or Versace. Continuing to misunderstand CCP's stance on the matter is only showing your own ignorance.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Ghoest
#70 - 2011-12-04 00:40:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghoest
Tippia is right.
You could make a case that it was only 2 years lost not three - but 2 lost years was enough to anger me. I was satisfied with the Dominion as a years expansion.
But after Dominion we went 2 years with essentially nothing except some small balances changes to sovereignty.

I resent and hate WIS because it meant the space ship and industry part of the game atrophied.



EDIT: Most of us consider WOD and WIS to be the same thing for development purposes and for the resulting opportunity cost.

Wherever You Went - Here You Are
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2011-12-04 00:52:09 UTC
Tippia wrote:
You're still quite incorrect about that one, by the way. Teams were indeed put to work on WiS instead of FiS.



Wow you just don't know how to read do you.

If you read what I was saying you would know that what you've said, while true. has nothing to do with it

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#72 - 2011-12-04 00:57:03 UTC
Ghoest wrote:
I resent and hate WIS because it meant the space ship and industry part of the game atrophied.


The Carbon project means that EVE is now in better shape than ever before. The PR fail from CCP was lumping the Carbon project in with WiS/WoD, as opposed to pointing out that Carbon was about refactoring the EVE Online code so that today's developers can keep writing cool stuff for EVE.

Search the EVE forums for "technical debt".

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#73 - 2011-12-04 01:05:42 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
If you read what I was saying you would know that what you've said, while true. has nothing to do with it
Riiiight…

People being moved off FiS teams to work on WiS has nothing to do with the complaint that people are being moved off FiS to work on WiS instead, thus incurring an opportunity cost in terms of FiS features. Yes, that's logical… Roll

But sure, that's fine by me: pretty much every time you post something, you provide more and more examples to corroborate my claim.
Azahni Vah'nos
Vah'nos Family
#74 - 2011-12-04 02:04:18 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
It would be nice if people could stop whining about NeX being a poorly implemented "micro-transaction" store. It is a virtual luxury goods store, just like Gucci or Versace. Continuing to misunderstand CCP's stance on the matter is only showing your own ignorance.

First off you do know this is a computer game right and virtual goods only remain in existance whilst the servers are open unlike real world goods. What's a 20 yr old Gucci or Versace original worth these days, I'm guessing more than the virtual goods from the shut down game are. Second it seems you've never heard of marketing hype to justify a companies pricing decisions.

CCP do not see the NeX store as anything but an additional revenue raiser, one that they had thought would have a wider appeal than it did after seeing some of their presentations on the subject.

Interesting that your talking about ignorance in other people.



Also do you really believe that after years of telling the playerbase that clothing would be player produced that CCP thought it would be better for the players to instead sell them as overpriced cash shop items, whilst at the same time removing any additional gamplay features they could have provided. Feeding the players this 'we just wanted you to feel special' bs is actually insulting.

Nex (Cash Shop) / Aurum - removing sand from the sandbox since Incarna. Currently the only use for aurum is to buy virtual items in the in-game store, but Cockerill expects to expand its uses in the future.

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2011-12-04 02:15:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
If you read what I was saying you would know that what you've said, while true. has nothing to do with it
Riiiight…

People being moved off FiS teams to work on WiS has nothing to do with the complaint that people are being moved off FiS to work on WiS instead, thus incurring an opportunity cost in terms of FiS features. Yes, that's logical… Roll

But sure, that's fine by me: pretty much every time you post something, you provide more and more examples to corroborate my claim.


Start year: 100 eve devs all working on FiS
2nd year: 200 eve devs 150 working in FiS , 50 working on WiS
3rd year: 200 devs working on eve, 50 people are pulled from the FiS teams to work on WiS

100 devs working on FiS
100 devs working on WiS, with 50 of those member stolen from FiS development.

As you can see the number of devs working on ever never changed.


Then when CCP goes back to old focus. It goes like this.

lose 100 devs, left with 100 devs all working on FiS

OH LOOK! after firing so many devs, they didn't actully hire anyone new to work on FiS. So they have the same number of devs before as they do now, becuase of the massive lay offs.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#76 - 2011-12-04 02:45:56 UTC
Azahni Vah'nos wrote:
First off you do know this is a computer game right and virtual goods only remain in existance whilst the servers are open unlike real world goods. What's a 20 yr old Gucci or Versace original worth these days, I'm guessing more than the virtual goods from the shut down game are. Second it seems you've never heard of marketing hype to justify a companies pricing decisions.


First off, do you realise that you can buy all of these virtual items with virtual money? You don't need to invest dollars for the sake of buying stuff from the Noble Exchange. Try buying a handbag from Gucci using monopoly money.

And before you resort to the obvious argument of "someone paid money for that PLEX", that person has already received their value return for the PLEX by selling it in game for ISK, which is how the obscenely space-rich person obtained the PLEX in the first place.

If you spend real money on PLEX in order to buy stuff from the Noble Exchange, well, I have a bridge in Sydney going cheap.

Azahni Vah'nos wrote:
CCP do not see the NeX store as anything but an additional revenue raiser, one that they had thought would have a wider appeal than it did after seeing some of their presentations on the subject.


I have seen a substantial number of people wearing monocles. The NeX is getting much more custom than I had originally expected. Of course we don't have figures from CCP about the success of the NeX, so we'll just have to argue based on the number of monocle-wearers we see in local chat. Based on evidence in the game, my conclusion is that the NeX has been quite successful.

Just because you haven't bought stuff from the NeX doesn't mean it's been unsuccessful. The fact that you are complaining that the NeX is too exclusive means mission accomplished on CCP's part: half the point of luxury items is to upset the poor sods who will never see enough money to buy items from that shop.

Azahni Vah'nos wrote:
Also do you really believe that after years of telling the playerbase that clothing would be player produced that CCP thought it would be better for the players to instead sell them as overpriced cash shop items, whilst at the same time removing any additional gamplay features they could have provided.


I agree that it would be better for the NeX to be an LP store selling blueprints/schematics for various destructible items, rather than directly selling indestructible items. This is scope for future remedies on CCP's part, and I would love to see a combination of space- and planet-side manufacturing required to produce these items.

Whether the clothes are player-made or provided complete through the store doesn't change the fact that it is a luxury goods store, not a discount factory outlet.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
C4LYP50
Solarwind Interstellar Mining and Production Ltd
#77 - 2011-12-04 04:21:23 UTC
ITT:
1. OP gets bored.
2. OP decides a troll is in order.
3. ????
4. Troll sucessful - 9/10 for getting 76 replies.
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
#78 - 2011-12-04 05:51:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Teamosil
It isn't so much that people hate WiS in and of itself, it's that CCP has only delivered one real expansion in 2 years now. The explanation they gave was that they were working hard on Incarna. The bulk of the players were always very skeptical that it would be lame, but CCP built it up and built it up as a total game changer and it was going to be so awesome, and so people waited around to see what they had been working on. Then they rolled it out and it was uterly useless and sort of looked like 1 month of dev time rather than 2 years. CCP admitted that actually, they didn't have any any plans for how to make WiS fun. Basically, CCP lied to us and wasted two years. Now there don't seem to be any plans in the works for a serious future expansion either.... The next thing they have planned for EvE as far as I know is Dust, which is basically to say that they're switching from developing EvE to developing some other game instead. So the impression it leaves is that CCP basically stopped development on EvE two years ago and lied to us about it to keep us hanging around and does not intend to resume development beyond maintenance type releases.

All that said, CCP did own up to it, which shows integrity and they did put Crucible out, which is a serious sign that they truly did figure out where they had been going wrong and made corrections. They deserve props for that. But, personally, I'm still kind of left with the impression that CCP has pretty much moved their focus on to other games. Crucible may be an indication that that isn't true. I hope so.
Azahni Vah'nos
Vah'nos Family
#79 - 2011-12-04 07:37:24 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
First off, do you realise that you can buy all of these virtual items with virtual money? You don't need to invest dollars for the sake of buying stuff from the Noble Exchange. Try buying a handbag from Gucci using monopoly money.

And before you resort to the obvious argument of "someone paid money for that PLEX", that person has already received their value return for the PLEX by selling it in game for ISK, which is how the obscenely space-rich person obtained the PLEX in the first place.

If you spend real money on PLEX in order to buy stuff from the Noble Exchange, well, I have a bridge in Sydney going cheap.
So the end result would be the same if the NeX items were instead delivered to the players via the regular EVE mechanics, as an additional PLEX/ISK sink.

And the Sydney bridge ... no it would look out of place in Melbourne.
Quote:
I have seen a substantial number of people wearing monocles. The NeX is getting much more custom than I had originally expected. Of course we don't have figures from CCP about the success of the NeX, so we'll just have to argue based on the number of monocle-wearers we see in local chat. Based on evidence in the game, my conclusion is that the NeX has been quite successful.

Just because you haven't bought stuff from the NeX doesn't mean it's been unsuccessful. The fact that you are complaining that the NeX is too exclusive means mission accomplished on CCP's part: half the point of luxury items is to upset the poor sods who will never see enough money to buy items from that shop.
I am not saying people haven't used ISK to buy NeX items, CCP expected the clothing to sell like it does in Second Life which I don't believe it's been that universally accepted. And again CCP could have achieved the same result through in-game mechanics, but instead chose to start down the path of diluting the integrity of the game.

You think someone that recently spent $19,000 on a horse is concerned about paying $70 for a monocle. The cost of the items is immaterial to me, it is the principal of the matter regarding the NeX that is the problem I have with it.

Sorry but there is nothing exclusive about the NeX items. If you had to earn them in game then I would agree with you, but how they are now just makes them meaningless crap.
Quote:
I agree that it would be better for the NeX to be an LP store selling blueprints/schematics for various destructible items, rather than directly selling indestructible items. This is scope for future remedies on CCP's part, and I would love to see a combination of space- and planet-side manufacturing required to produce these items.

Whether the clothes are player-made or provided complete through the store doesn't change the fact that it is a luxury goods store, not a discount factory outlet.
I guess time will tell if CCP truly care about the integrity of EVE. To me CCP are cheapening themselves with the NeX, or maybe my opinion of CCP as a developer was too high for them to live up to.

If the items are delivered via industrialists, LP rewards, etc then they can call them whatever they want.

Nex (Cash Shop) / Aurum - removing sand from the sandbox since Incarna. Currently the only use for aurum is to buy virtual items in the in-game store, but Cockerill expects to expand its uses in the future.

Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#80 - 2011-12-04 07:39:00 UTC
I think the 20% cut to the staff at CCP because of all the ppl that fled the game when that crap launched is why ppl hate it

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.