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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1301 - 2011-12-03 19:28:02 UTC
Then what would you, oh master of pvp, call kiting? I'm not sure what gangs you fly in but good pvp is all about following a fleet doctrine, which means more than just sorting fits and calling primaries. People have to maneuver their ships and use their brains while still following the basic confines of the plan. So yes, it involves the FC telling you how to pilot your ship, otherwise you get caught and killed and your gang has that much less dps.

Also I lol'ed when you said kiting ships sacrifice range and DPS. The whole imbalance of the cane in today's pvp environment is that they get awesome dps at 20-30km with ACs and barrage, while still being faster than anything else out there. Canes sacrifice tank slightly, but not in any way that fundamentally impairs them. Drakes don't unless they go dual web, and even then they have pretty decent EHP. While they may have slightly less dps than brick setups, the whole point is that it's all relative: 50k ehp vs. 80k ehp is meaningless if the 50k ship has better dps, better range, and better speed, allowing it to dictate the fight from the start.

I don't understand why you think that any of the suggestions put forth would make kiting ships not have any chance against blaster pilots. You just have to actually make some serious sacrifices on your ship in order to kite. And it won't be viable against things like Harbingers that have great range and dps. But then again, your setup shouldn't be viable against every kind of ship out there, so that's all fine and dandy.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1302 - 2011-12-03 19:39:52 UTC
Whoever told you I fly in blobs? No need to use ueuphemisms like 'gang' or 'fleet doctrine'. Blob is a blob and that's it.

And - if you do enjoy flying there - who the hell told you blasters should be usable there Question

No need in bringing in OP ships like Cane or Drake. They are that popular for a reason.

Skipping OP ships and getting back to constructive discussion, I can tell you that my Nighthawk - a perfect kiting sample - is already next to useless against megapulses. It has literally no tank.
I don't care about megapulses while flying, say, a Sleipnir. They don't track well enough at close range and I can tank them anyway.

You failed to get my message. Just fix shield-tank, heavy missiles, TE's etc. and all of a sudden Winmatar will barely retain a small window they can decently operate in. And Drakes won't be able to spam missiles from 80 km.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#1303 - 2011-12-03 19:40:29 UTC
Also using mobile ships (kiting) can be easy. At-least in large fleets. It becomes harder with more targets on the field and the less in your fleet. Depending on the amount of frigates and ships that are able to project damage the other fleet has. Also, I tend to fly without logistics, which also allows many fleets to have it easy. Not to mention having to use un-bonused warp disruptor's and not bubbles or dedicated tackle like a Lachesis.

So 10 - 20 Drakes flying around with logistics do have it easy.

Also, it's easier to stay out of warp disruption range than hold it. Also, whom ever overheats first tends to dictate who gets away or gets caught. For example; When engaging a Dramiel in a Slicer I tend to over heat from the beginning and prolong getting caught. When a Dramiel pilot finally decides to overheat. I tend to double back to sling shot in scram range to prolong damage application. I either live or explode.

So when solo it is difficult when multi-ple ships are on the field. Also it's limiting. I cannot force a Brutix for example to not just mwd back to a gate if it attempted to overheat and catch me but failed. Which is how and where close range ships should be used. Places where high velocity means nothing. Where high vel ships work best are places like planets, belts and way away from a station or gate on grid.
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1304 - 2011-12-03 20:13:02 UTC
If we're talking about "balancing" then maybe you should bring in OP ships, otherwise you kind of, you know, miss the whole ******* point of the exercise. And part of the problem is that blasters are not good in gang situations, so just saying they shouldn't be good there because they're not already good when we want to know how we can make them better is just dumb and lazy.

What does your Nighthawk do against blaster ships? We're not talking about megapulses here, we're talking about hybrids. Rails don't have the dps or utility to deal with kiting set ups, blasters don't have the range or the actual ability to apply dps against hulls that are almost always faster than your own.

And I don't care whether or not you fly in blobs, most pvp is done with multi pilots on each side, the tactics don't change dramatically whether its 5v5 or 50v50. If you're not going to engage in gang fights, how do you even have any experience with hybrid inadequacy in that regard?
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1305 - 2011-12-03 20:22:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Julius Foederatus wrote:

What does your Nighthawk do against blaster ships? We're not talking about megapulses here, we're talking about hybrids. Rails don't have the dps or utility to deal with kiting set ups, blasters don't have the range or the actual ability to apply dps against hulls that are almost always faster than your own.

It's all about paper, rock and scissors.

Rails outdamage beams since Crucible, btw. Use them if you think they'll suit you better than blast0rs. I for one have already designed a pretty good Astarte setup with rails. Absolution doesn't come close.

Getting back to topic, I've got to repeat once again - you seem to be missing the fact blasters are of no use only because of it being so easy to outrange them, thanks to TEs and great basic range of heavy missiles. And also the fact that Gallente ships tend to be outrun by shield-tanked ones only because of shield-tank not slowing you down. Address these issues and the range difference will get shortened by about 2/3 and speed difference by at least half.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#1306 - 2011-12-03 22:06:17 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:

And finally to the dude asking about cane fits, I don't have EFT in front of me cause I'm on a library computer atm, but if I recall a cane with 3x gyro, 2x TE, DCU or whatever people want to fit in that last slot, will go somewhere around 1.3km/s, which is way more than is necessary to kite any other BC, shield or otherwise. Having that extra nano will give you some extra time to get away and allow you a little more error room with overheats and such, but it's not strictly necessary to keep out of range of other ships.


you should not make any statements about fittings without consulting any fitting tools, because your memory fails you.
and even an all V char should get problems perfoming easily what you are suggesting.
but nevertheless the sinsiter looking amarr dude has a point in calling the tracking enhancer quite powerful.

all that head bashing in here will do no good, one should wait until ccp does the next balancing attemps. flaming all day long will not change that.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1307 - 2011-12-04 03:27:11 UTC
To fix hybrids you need to give them another role.
There is no other solution.
The reason is this:

If you had to design a close combat weapon/ship-combo in eve, what would it look like?

cap-free: a weapon that works exclusively within nos/neut range absolutely needs this characteristic. Giving this to a weapon that does work outside this range is harebrained.
multiple damage types: you have due to the limited range a huge increase to your time to kill, this must be alleviated as much as possible by making the gap between paper dps and real dps as small as possible.
the fastest and most agile ships: do i really need to say why a close combat weapon needs this?
(some other stuff like shield tanking and utility highs for nos/neuts and other nasty surprises so its not just about dps would be nice as well, but the stuff above are the real must-haves for close combat).

So devs, the result is: you have designed the Minmatar as the close combat and sniping race (for sniping you absolutely need huge alpha or you can´t reasonably introduce sniping into the game). They are the ones optimized for it.
Maybe that wasn´t intentionally, it´s a result of many many small changes over the years after all, so that can happen. But nonetheless it´s the current situation and you have to deal with it.

The Gallente/hybrids must not become like the Minnies/projectiles, so they can´t cover close combat and sniping any more (because they would need to become like those that are actually optimized for it).

Since the Minnies are already designed for it, give them the role of close combat and sniping: just change the ranges of the ACs to that of blasters (you might have to buff dps and will have to buff tracking to adjust those stats to the range change).
And increase the range of Artys to those of rails (again damage and tracking needs adjusted to the range change). So the Minmatar-is-op-problem is resolved as well. They aren´t op, they are just designed for another role than that they are currently occupying.


The Gallente will take over the roles of the Minnies instead, all you have to do is giving them the ranges of the current projectile weapons (adjustments to damage and tracking because of the range change again).
The ships not the fastest or the slowest, the weapons with flexible ranges and reasonably good damage and tracking, but uses both cap and ammo, fixed damage types and reload time and not really impressive alpha they are perfectly suited for a generalist role: not really outstanding anywhere, but easy and reliable to fly and good enough for being a viable alternative everywhere. Noone will cry op if the Gallente have the most flexible engagement range instead of the Minmatar, because they have many shortcomings instead of many advantages. But the Gallente won´t be gimped anymore as well, because they are very well designed for this role.
Also: Caldari hybrid ships will be fixed like this as well.

So just by exchanging the weapons ranges of projectiles and hybrids (with adjustments to damage and tracking because of the range change) you have:

fixed Gallente/hybrids balancing issues
fixed Minmatar/projectiles balancing issues
fixed Caldari/hybrids balancing issues

increase the probing time to give the new sniping-arties just enough time to give off one shot with huge alpha and change position and you have:

reintroduced sniping. Without the problems caused by the fact that you tried to make low-alpha weapons do the sniping.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#1308 - 2011-12-04 04:17:57 UTC
I have no issue with allowing Gallente ships to have the highest velocity. However, I am against auto-cannons having anything like the falloff and optimal values of hybrids. I'm not against projectiles using capacitor. Does not make much sense with regard to real life, but hey! As for projectiles being limited in damage types as hybrids are now. Fine. Hybrids can have damage selection. No to losing Minmatar ships utility slots. I'll also throw in the a significant reduction in falloff of tracking enhancers.

Otherwise. I'm not willing to give up auto-cannons real flexibility (range ). Being able to engage close and @ medium range. Using capacitor is not that big of a deal. Damage selection is not that big of an issue. Very high velocity does not mean that much if there's not other factors that come into play. I'm also against Minmatar losing Artilleries volley damage.

Great! Now go on the test server or better yet tranq and fly a shield-Hurricane without tracking enhancers and fit a scrambler. You'll have most of what you've asked for. Come back and tell us how successful the new Gallente is. Mind you! You'll have alot more range than you would if you were using blaster, but hey. Most will get the point once anyone flies said set-up.

Anyone who has tried that set-up to see if Gallente would benefit or if it's just a lack of capacitor use or damage selection. Their opinion changes very quickly. Those who actually want to figure out what the issues truly are.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#1309 - 2011-12-04 04:47:11 UTC
Anyway, their has been a significant change to hybrids. Rail-gun tended to be the only other option to artillery-cannon in ship classes not heavily bonused for their use.

For example; a Muninn has bonuses for using artillery, but most t1 Minmatar ships that are not specialised are able to use them. Most Amarr ships are not capable of this, because of the huge capacitor consumption of beam lasers. Rail-gun does not have that issue for the most part and now uses even less capacitor and power grid. How this translate into our current environment will be interesting.

All these set-ups below are a alternative to using artillery, but for Gallente ships to be viable in fleets. Medium Rail-gun will have no issues tracking ships destroyers and above @ around 12,000 meters and above. Minus some Cpu and power-grid issues on some ships. These set-ups are very viable. Again, a alternative to artillery-canon. Not to mention the utility of a large drone bay by all ships below. So yeah! Rail-guns are now significantly easier for most hybrid platforms to fit. Caldari hybrid ships are still pretty bad for the most part and I am speaking about the ships (bonuses, drones, damage or lack there of) and not the weapon system.


Brutix
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II

200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Valkyrie II x5

[Thorax,
Overdrive Injector System II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Warp Disruptor II

200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


[Deimos
Overdrive Injector System II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
[empty high slot]

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#1310 - 2011-12-04 09:04:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikuno
m0cking bird wrote:
Anyway, their has been a significant change to hybrids. Rail-gun tended to be the only other option to artillery-cannon in ship classes not heavily bonused for their use.

For example; a Muninn has bonuses for using artillery, but most t1 Minmatar ships that are not specialised are able to use them. Most Amarr ships are not capable of this, because of the huge capacitor consumption of beam lasers. Rail-gun does not have that issue for the most part and now uses even less capacitor and power grid. How this translate into our current environment will be interesting.

All these set-ups below are a alternative to using artillery, but for Gallente ships to be viable in fleets. Medium Rail-gun will have no issues tracking ships destroyers and above @ around 12,000 meters and above. Minus some Cpu and power-grid issues on some ships. These set-ups are very viable. Again, a alternative to artillery-canon. Not to mention the utility of a large drone bay by all ships below. So yeah! Rail-guns are now significantly easier for most hybrid platforms to fit. Caldari hybrid ships are still pretty bad for the most part and I am speaking about the ships (bonuses, drones, damage or lack there of) and not the weapon system.

Brutix [shield]
[Thorax [shield]
[Deimos [shield]

There's the problem,yet again. You're having to shield tank those ships to try to make them viable! The Brutix has a rep bonus for crying out loud Sad

Sort out the penalties associated with rigs and half of the remaining issues will go away. Either remove speed as an armour rig penalty (and why it was ever a penalty for having reps or resists I'll never understand apart from the usual laziness of giving identical problems to everything in a given rig section. Plating is big and heavy - ok, if you want to say there's a RP reason behind it then fine. But how do you justify it for reps?) or add speed as a drawback to shields.

Makes more sense to me that anything that adds real hp like extenders or plates should add mass; but anything that boosts resists ? Makes more sense for armour and shield resist mods to boost sig radius; rigs that boost rep and shield performance should affect something different again- tracking perhaps? Or anything else you care to add. But please, just lose speed penalties on armour rigs and lose armour penalties on speed rigs. You have made them mutually exclusive and it really hurts the possibilities for gallente ships.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1311 - 2011-12-04 11:46:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Adding speed penalties to shield tank rigs (and extenders) is better than removing those from armour ones. Why? Because it will promote active tank.

So it would look like the following.
passive tank: slow, huge EHP, cap independant, easy to fit, boring
active tank: fast, small EHP, cap dependant, hard to fit, fun

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#1312 - 2011-12-04 11:52:31 UTC
Nikuno wrote:
m0cking bird wrote:
...
Brutix [shield]
[Thorax [shield]
[Deimos [shield]

There's the problem,yet again. You're having to shield tank those ships to try to make them viable! The Brutix has a rep bonus for crying out loud Sad


since armor tank has moved from medium to low slots a long time ago, it always interfere with damage mods and stuff like that. these fits need the low slots for other stuff than tank to make them viable. why limit yourself in only using one possibility of tanking? and reject viable fits just because there using a different approach than the usual one?
as for the brutix, one has to admit ignoring a bonus is not perfect, but there is no necessity to always use all boni.
if the fitting is viable for its intended role then i dont see a problem.

the only other option would be decreasing number of mid slots on gallente ships and increaseing the low slot number. infact, giving gallente boats the slot layout of amarr. i vote for versatility ;)

Nikuno wrote:

Sort out the penalties associated with rigs and half of the remaining issues will go away. Either remove speed as an armour rig penalty (and why it was ever a penalty for having reps or resists I'll never understand apart from the usual laziness of giving identical problems to everything in a given rig section. Plating is big and heavy - ok, if you want to say there's a RP reason behind it then fine. But how do you justify it for reps?) or add speed as a drawback to shields.

Makes more sense to me that anything that adds real hp like extenders or plates should add mass; but anything that boosts resists ? Makes more sense for armour and shield resist mods to boost sig radius; rigs that boost rep and shield performance should affect something different again- tracking perhaps? Or anything else you care to add. But please, just lose speed penalties on armour rigs and lose armour penalties on speed rigs. You have made them mutually exclusive and it really hurts the possibilities for gallente ships.


sounds like a really bad idea to me, given the fact that minmatar would profit much more from that than gallente boats. imagine the might of a cane with speed rigs but no gimped armor, because the armor reduces the speed but the rigs compensate without reducing the ehp. i certainly would like that, but it will not solve our problem.
Solinuas
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1313 - 2011-12-04 12:26:50 UTC
It seems the most preferred and said methods after reading all 66 pages are as follows

1) Gal needs to be the fastest race
2) blasters need enough DPS to make up for the net 0 of burning into range
3) blasters need an inherent advantage over other turrets that is not just superior DPS
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1314 - 2011-12-04 13:02:44 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
Unfortunetly most tag cloud creators do not work on the https rss feed of eve forums.
I will do it manually :( That needs some time.... i hope to get the cloud for you till tomorrow.

As far as my results go till now. the above poster is correct with the words range, speed, blasters as the top results.
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#1315 - 2011-12-04 15:29:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikuno
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
Nikuno wrote:

Sort out the penalties associated with rigs and half of the remaining issues will go away. Either remove speed as an armour rig penalty (and why it was ever a penalty for having reps or resists I'll never understand apart from the usual laziness of giving identical problems to everything in a given rig section. Plating is big and heavy - ok, if you want to say there's a RP reason behind it then fine. But how do you justify it for reps?) or add speed as a drawback to shields.

Makes more sense to me that anything that adds real hp like extenders or plates should add mass; but anything that boosts resists ? Makes more sense for armour and shield resist mods to boost sig radius; rigs that boost rep and shield performance should affect something different again- tracking perhaps? Or anything else you care to add. But please, just lose speed penalties on armour rigs and lose armour penalties on speed rigs. You have made them mutually exclusive and it really hurts the possibilities for gallente ships.


sounds like a really bad idea to me, given the fact that minmatar would profit much more from that than gallente boats. imagine the might of a cane with speed rigs but no gimped armor, because the armor reduces the speed but the rigs compensate without reducing the ehp. i certainly would like that, but it will not solve our problem.


No, I clearly stated that shield extenders and armour plates should BOTH increase the ship's mass, this would mean the canes sharing the same penalty if they wanted to go for ehp buffer tanking.

Rather than the rig groupings being
[everything armour=speed loss] [everything shield = sig bloom]
it should be
[everything adding hp=speed loss] [everything giving resists=sig bloom] [everything boosting shield boost or armour reps= some other penalty]

This would be far more balanced and give a reason for active reps as many, including yourself, have stated. Now to see if CCP think the same way.
Charles Edisson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1316 - 2011-12-04 18:46:44 UTC
The ballance is done no need to keep going on. there are alot of other mods in the game that are in need or ballancing.
Tracking enhansers compaired to tracking computers is one, that's part of the reason that Mini are uber as they shield tank and use the enhanser while other gun races use computers. Another hit galle took was the sensor damp nerf, yes they were overpowered but halfing their stats and limiting to one type was too much.
Over all when scripts were introduced ships that used medium slot modules took a hit. and mini by default got a boost.

It happened little by little step by step must mini have directly and indirectly received too many improvements.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#1317 - 2011-12-04 19:07:39 UTC
no, actually i didnt make my self clear.

Nikuno wrote:

(...) and lose armour penalties on speed rigs (...)


baaad idea.


the rest may be worth a shot on sisi. this thread contains a lotof good ideas. it's time for testing them, there has been enough talking on the subject.
Joss56
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1318 - 2011-12-04 19:51:01 UTC
Rails are in need to +/- 20% DPS to be a decent choice when you pop structures, for fleet fights since it doesn't have the big alpha of arty they're useless, doesn't matter if they do more dps overtime, you want to one shot stuff and rails are the last choice for this.

Blasters? -slow bricks, severly lacking flexibility of range cumulated with dmg types fixed and a very poo dps in the end of falloff.

The only viable blaster ships for fleets are Rokh's if someday blaster get more range, untill then we will most probably never see any of those in fleets. Hyperions and megas for this purpose are even worst, they're just good for brawl at gates and stations, open your eyes.
mine mi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1319 - 2011-12-04 21:35:32 UTC
I think you should make a new set of weapons, such as a plasma cannon or a particle accelerator, trying to balance a weapon in two completely different types of ships must be a nightmare.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#1320 - 2011-12-04 22:46:25 UTC
fking forum eated my post

atm blaster weapon era fine on TQ the main problem is the ships that use them, they are slow and they struggle to get in range especially when fitted with plates and trimark, many of you suggested to remove the speed penalty from armor rigs but that would also boost amarr and some minmatar ships and they dont need a boost.
so my idea is to boost reiforced bulkheads, give the a +45% to ship hull hp remove all the speed/agi penalty from them and just give them a locking RANGE penalty like 7,5% per module because the engeneer have to remove some electronics for extra hull hp (this also prevents megabaits with 7 bulkheads) drop the cpu requirements to 25/30 cpu per module.

what we get in this way?
all the hull tanking ships keep their original speed agility with a decent buffer tank a mega fitted with 1DC+4 bulkheads would have a speed of 1000ms (1500ms in OH) with a 130k EHP tank, 2 slot left for MFS and all the rigs slot free for hybrid rigs 1dmg rig +2 tracking rigs are easy to fit now with reduced fittings for hybrid weapons, of course repairs will be harder and costy but you will save about 40mils on rigs so its a fair tradeoff i think.
in this way you can also keep gal ship fully capable to fit a armor tank if the situation need it like RR fleets but you will have a solid buffer tank for solo/small gang situations.

and if we wanna complete the job it wouldnt be a bad idea to change the 7,5% to armor rep in a + 5% hull hp