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[Kronos] Deep Space Transport Rebalance

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Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#281 - 2014-05-20 17:18:34 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


so basically it's going to be a 140m container, rather than an actual ship.
does the fact that it's near only use is a giant shoe box mean it's a successful rebalance? or an unsuccessful one?


Probably the latter, but shhh. No reason to ruin the fun.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#282 - 2014-05-20 17:20:44 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
The DST will be more useful than a Miasmos for ore hauling since the Orca pilot can simply drag stuff from all three storage compartments into the DST's fleet hangar.

The DST will also serve nicely to replace a Kryos for mineral hauling and Hoarder for ammo hauling because of the built in stab, and the ability to fit an MWD without requiring rigs.

I'll focus on finding something to complain about tomorrow.

Oh hang on, I found a gripe! They're rather homogenous. I'd prefer clear roles: the Mastodon for "absolutely, positively overnight!" with the Bustard for Ghostbusters style hauling, the Impel for Dirty Harry style armour tank baiting, and the Occator for a combination of capacity & agility.

PS: a long time ago there was a courier company in Australia called "Comet". Their motto was "absolutely, positively overnight? Hello Comet!" (and being the '80s they had a cool jingle too). Folks in the USA will recognise the slogan from FedEx ads during the same period. Our advertising folks in the '80s thought they could pull the wool over our eyes and recycle US scripts. These days they just play the whole US ad, complete with corny accents and pronouncing "Z" as "zee".

PPS: Ghostbusters: no job too big, no fee too big!

Yes, how silly not to pronounce it "Zed", because we all know that Zebra is meant to be pronounced "Zedbra" and Zero is meant to be "Zedro". Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#283 - 2014-05-20 17:22:25 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Allowing launching and scooping of structures from fleet hangars is something that needs more investigation, so we're increasing the standard cargo holds on all the DSTs so they can easily deploy and scoop structures.

We are also increasing the assembled volumes of the DSTs a bit, to keep the balance surrounding DSTs hauling cargo in ship maintenance bays.

We have discussed the questions surrounding hauling of battleships into C1 wormholes with the CSM and internally, and decided that we are ok with this function at this time. Using a DST to get a battleship into a C1 siege still requires the attackers to have their own starbase set up in the system for disassembly.



Fozzie, rather than opting for this convoluted and weird, unnecessary change to DSTs to give them a roll, why not do the logical, natural thing and simply give them bubble immunity? IT fits with their intended role of being nullsec transportation, and gives them something the Blockade runner can't do. It forces a trade between cloaking and bubble immunity in null.

Rather than trying to balance everything else around this rather stupid concept of adding fleet hangars to transport ships, and allowing Carriers to Xhibit style, have hanger arrays in their hangar arrays. It's an ugly change that lacks any and all finesse and understanding of what the larger meta is going to do with these ships.

Just as nerfing refine to stop railgun mining, this will have easily recognizable meta changes, that don't need to be balanced around.

Leave the ships as you've done, they are good changes, just get rid of the fleet hangar, and add bubble immunity, and they will be flown, an they will have great roles.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#284 - 2014-05-20 17:38:43 UTC
The fleet hangar is an interesting twist on these haulers. It lets them all have a somewhat large carrying capacity without having to worry as much about balancing low slots filled with cargo expanders. it also opens up some interesting possibilities for fleet ops, mining ops, etc. (Or even a mobile cyno/refueling station. Twisted)

The whole overheat/MMJD thing I just can't get behind. As others have said: change the velocity bonus to an agility bonus, and give them bubble immunity instead of the overheat/MMJD bonuses. That would make DSTs far more useful, and would also counterpoint the BRs nicely: one is the slow, tanky, bubble-proof hauler with a larger capacity while the other is the fast, paper-thin, cloaky hauler with a smaller capacity.

PS: Thanks for re-buffing the base cargo to continue allowing for structure anchoring. Please consider doing the same with bubble immunity.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#285 - 2014-05-20 17:59:20 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


then reduce the capacity of capitals, rather than slapping orca pilots in the face.


Fozzie is right here in this thread. Go ahead and argue for your case.
Good luck, you'll need it.


i honestly don't care one way or another what happens. having DSTs being useful for mining [which is a waste of time as it is] doesn't really matter much, although it was about the only use i could come up with for these ships since there ships superior to the DST in every way already available.


With the ability to put these in your carrier, DST will be the most used subcap hauler in the game. Period.
Blockade runners, t1 haulers and similar will not have remotely close to the same amount of usage if Kronos goes live with the ability to put DSTs in your carrier SMA. It will literally be every 0.0 carrier pilot's must-have.
So you don't have to wonder about their uses, it will be (ab)used. It's just a very bastarded way to use it, which is a shame.

But besides this, it will be a great substitution for rorquals and similar when putting up towers. You can carry fuel, stront, tower and some useful hangars all in one go.


so basically it's going to be a 140m container, rather than an actual ship.
does the fact that it's near only use is a giant shoe box mean it's a successful rebalance? or an unsuccessful one?


It is also going to be great hot drop bait and a very good highsec armored car hauler. I think it will also be handy for some 0.0 uses. I am certainly glad I have Transport Ships IV on several characters.

My next issue is figuring out which racial Industrial V I want as my standard across my accounts, since I currently have that split (e.g. One has Gallente Industrial V, another Caldari, another Minmatar, etc.).

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Lexmana
#286 - 2014-05-20 18:01:13 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.


Can we get some feedback on the bubble immunity thing for DSTs? Obviously it's a dumb idea for Blockade Runners, but replacing the DST warp core stability bonus with bubble immunity makes a lot of sense and isn't anywhere near as strong as it is on Interceptors / T3 cruisers.

Was the idea considered?


The idea was considered and rejected as it would make DSTs too difficult to catch in nullsec and (especially) wormhole space and wouldn't provide much interesting gameplay.

It would be more interesting if hey had to choose between (onlined) cloak and bubble immunity. When caught in a bubble would you dare offline your cloak? Uncloaked prey is best prey...
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#287 - 2014-05-20 18:03:28 UTC
Ron Mexxico wrote:
if i have a DST in my super SMA can i drag/drop mods from the DST fleet hangar to my super fleet hangar?


The abuser & killer of dogs does have a good question, can this be answered?

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#288 - 2014-05-20 18:05:35 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:


Leave the ships as you've done, they are good changes, just get rid of the fleet hangar, and add bubble immunity, and they will be flown, an they will have great roles.


Bubble immunity and warp core stabilization + warp core stabs is too powerful. You could mwd + cloak and warp away regardless of 2-3 ceptors pointing you.
You'd need a hictor and lots of stuff to decloak it on an inbound gate to ever catch these. They can't be stopped by bubbles, so they are effectively nullified t3 mega haulers.
They won't be deep space transporters, they will be blockade runners more efficient at outrunning blockades than the actual blockade runners which have to burn through bubbles and die painfully.

iskflakes
#289 - 2014-05-20 18:13:18 UTC
Ron Mexxico wrote:
if i have a DST in my super SMA can i drag/drop mods from the DST fleet hangar to my super fleet hangar?


+1 I want to see an answer to this.

Also can the fleet hangar be accessed while the ship is unpiloted? So could I jettison a DST filled with fuel to fuel myself up, then scoop it again?

-
Ron Mexxico
ElitistOps
Deepwater Hooligans
#290 - 2014-05-20 18:13:27 UTC
Ron Mexxico wrote:
if i have a DST in my super SMA can i drag/drop mods from the DST fleet hangar to my super fleet hangar?

pls respond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7pAGeenufs
Dave Stark
#291 - 2014-05-20 18:30:55 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
It is also going to be great hot drop bait and a very good highsec armored car hauler. I think it will also be handy for some 0.0 uses. I am certainly glad I have Transport Ships IV on several characters.

My next issue is figuring out which racial Industrial V I want as my standard across my accounts, since I currently have that split (e.g. One has Gallente Industrial V, another Caldari, another Minmatar, etc.).


the problem is there are better ships for both high sec armoured car hauling, and for going through hostile space. *shrug*
Lair Osen
#292 - 2014-05-20 18:34:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lair Osen
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The ammo only rule does not apply to fleet hangars.


Sisi says otherwise?

Quote:
You cannot store a ship that contains cargo other than charges inside a Ship Maintenance Bay.

Please remove cargo from the ship and try again.


Maybe it just because the 'Fleet Hangars' on Sisi atm aren't actually fleet hangars.
Lair Osen
#293 - 2014-05-20 18:36:19 UTC
Kyt Thrace wrote:
Ron Mexxico wrote:
if i have a DST in my super SMA can i drag/drop mods from the DST fleet hangar to my super fleet hangar?


The abuser & killer of dogs does have a good question, can this be answered?


Answer is No
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#294 - 2014-05-20 18:39:49 UTC
Lair Osen wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The ammo only rule does not apply to fleet hangars.


Sisi says otherwise?

Quote:
You cannot store a ship that contains cargo other than charges inside a Ship Maintenance Bay.

Please remove cargo from the ship and try again.


Really? That's interesting...

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#295 - 2014-05-20 18:48:37 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.


Can we get some feedback on the bubble immunity thing for DSTs? Obviously it's a dumb idea for Blockade Runners, but replacing the DST warp core stability bonus with bubble immunity makes a lot of sense and isn't anywhere near as strong as it is on Interceptors / T3 cruisers.

Was the idea considered?


The idea was considered and rejected as it would make DSTs too difficult to catch in nullsec and (especially) wormhole space and wouldn't provide much interesting gameplay.


With how often Nullified Tech 3's and at times Ceptors get caught.... It's not as strong or hard to catch. I would be all for letting them lose a Warp strength bonus for a Nullified bonus just to see these ships getting flown. I have only seen 1 DST, everything else has always been blockade runners. Hit the align time a bit, remove the warp strength and give em the nullification. More will be used and still a chance to catch them.
Sael Va'Tauri
Morgan Industry
Silent Infinity
#296 - 2014-05-20 19:00:29 UTC
I'd like to further expand on my earlier suggestion to give the DSTs a little more racial flare while also mitigating the problems with having the large fleet hanger.

IMPEL (suggested changes in BOLD - all other aspects remain as suggested in OP)

Amarr Industrial Bonus per level:
+7.5% Armor Repairer Effectiveness
5% armor amount

Transport Ships Bonus per level:
+5% Fleet Hangar capacity
+4% Armor Resistances

Cargo Hold: 3500(-500)m3
Fleet Hangar: 37500m3

Comments:
The intended role of the Impel would be to have the largest fleet hanger and best tank. The large fleet hanger supports this rule by allowing the Impel to fit tank mods without effecting the total cargo capacity.


BUSTARD

Caldari Industrial Bonus per level:
+7.5% Shield Booster Effectiveness
+5% cargo capacity

Transport Ships Bonus per level:
+5% Fleet Hangar capacity
+4% Shield Resistances

Role Bonuses:

Cargo Hold: 7000(+2000)m3
Fleet Hangar: 30000m3

Comments:
Yields the largest total combined cargohold for general goods, and since its shield tanked, can fit cargo expanders without sacrificing tank. If you want to haul things with your deep space transport while still retaining some tank, the Caldari DST will be the DST to skill for.

OCCATOR

Gallente Industrial Bonus per level:
+7.5% Armor Repairer Effectiveness
5m3 drone bay and bandwidth

Transport Ships Bonus per level:
+5% Fleet Hangar capacity
+4% Armor Resistances

Cargo Hold: 3500(-1500)m3
Fleet Hangar: 12500m3
Ore Hanger: 50000m3
Mineral Hanger: 50000m3

Comments:
Builds on the T1 Gallente hulls - ability to use drones borrowed from the Nereus, Ore hanger borrowed from the Miasmos, and Mineral Hanger borrowed from the Kyros. When fully skilled, will be able to haul slightly more minerals or ore than other tech 1 hulls, and it can potentially fight off a single attacker. Of interest would be the potential to carry over half a Jump Freighters amount of ore and minerals, which I'm sure someone could find a use for.

MASTODON

Minmatar Industrial Bonus per level:
+7.5% Shield Booster Effectiveness
+5% Agility

Transport Ships Bonus per level:
+5% Fleet Hangar capacity
+4% Shield Resistances

Cargo Hold: 4500(-750)m3
Fleet Hangar: 25000m3
Ammo Bay: 50000m3

Comments:
The Mastadon becomes the fastest of the DSTs to align, though at the cost of having the 3rd smallest Fleet Hanger (keeping in line with the Fenrir with speed in place of cargo). An Ammo bay is added to keep with the precedent set by the Hoarder, which could have some interesting uses in combination with the fleet hanger, though this is the feature I'm most wary of.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#297 - 2014-05-20 19:21:23 UTC
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.


Can we get some feedback on the bubble immunity thing for DSTs? Obviously it's a dumb idea for Blockade Runners, but replacing the DST warp core stability bonus with bubble immunity makes a lot of sense and isn't anywhere near as strong as it is on Interceptors / T3 cruisers.

Was the idea considered?


The idea was considered and rejected as it would make DSTs too difficult to catch in nullsec and (especially) wormhole space and wouldn't provide much interesting gameplay.


With how often Nullified Tech 3's and at times Ceptors get caught.... It's not as strong or hard to catch. I would be all for letting them lose a Warp strength bonus for a Nullified bonus just to see these ships getting flown. I have only seen 1 DST, everything else has always been blockade runners. Hit the align time a bit, remove the warp strength and give em the nullification. More will be used and still a chance to catch them.


So, how many low slots and high slots does your hypothetical nullified DST have?

With a Blockade Runner, my Interdictor can sometimes catch one if he doesn't decloak outside the bubble or on the other side of the gate. It also helps a lot if the BR pilot fits expanded cargoholds instead of nanos or istabs. I can greatly improve my chances by bringing more fast tackle to help me get the decloak and initial lock. It's all very balanced currently with the BR vs gate camp content.

With your hypothetical DST, he jumps through the gate, aligns, MWD, cloak. I go for decloak. Even if I decloak him, I have to get ~6 points or a Heavy Interdictor on him before he is aligned. Congrats, you just made a BR that is better for 0.0 than a BR.

If you nerf the low slots, then you make all the DST's into shield tankers by default, making them even more homogenous.

In other words, please don't add more nullification to Eve. Bubbles add real risk to 0.0 travel and it should stay that way. I'll live with the interceptor shuttles because it means tackle can catch ratters and miners and I can abuse risk free 0.0 shuttles too, but moving goods should require time, skill, and expense.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#298 - 2014-05-20 19:34:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammzi
@ CCP Fozzie

Just tested this on SISI: http://puu.sh/8UdTt/e9376a3c47.jpg

1 trit inside the fleet hangar of an empty bustard. Dragged into the ship bay of an Archon.
So there was actually no need to do any of these changes to the Bustard assembled size, because they can't be used as magnificent cargo carriers.

Or will this change in a future release?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#299 - 2014-05-20 19:52:09 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Ammzi wrote:
@ CCP Fozzie

Just tested this on SISI: http://puu.sh/8UdHt/0932b1655d.jpg

1 trit inside the fleet hangar of an empty bustard. Dragged into the ship bay of an Archon.
So there was actually no need to do any of these changes to the Bustard assembled size, because they can't be used as magnificent cargo carriers.

Or will this change in a future release?


That error message looks like you tried to put it in the Fleet Hangar, not the Ship Maintenance Bay.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#300 - 2014-05-20 20:16:16 UTC
Sigh, wrong picture. Here's the right one http://puu.sh/8UdTt/e9376a3c47.jpg