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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Kronos] Deep Space Transport Rebalance

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#301 - 2014-05-20 20:25:24 UTC
Good. That's the simple solution. I don't know why Fozzie is trying to go for the most convoluted thing possible.
Some problems seem to solve themselves.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Dave Stark
#302 - 2014-05-20 20:25:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Ammzi wrote:
Sigh, wrong picture. Here's the right one http://puu.sh/8UdTt/e9376a3c47.jpg


guess that means we can change DSTs back to a sensible size so we can put them in the orca after all.

edit: it helps if i get my short hand right.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#303 - 2014-05-20 20:27:18 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
Sigh, wrong picture. Here's the right one http://puu.sh/8UdTt/e9376a3c47.jpg


guess that means we can change BRs back to a sensible size so we can put them in the orca after all.


Yeah - or Fozzie intends to change this ruling regarding the fleet hanger (highly doubt it).
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#304 - 2014-05-20 20:27:51 UTC
I don't even know why he thinks not having that restriction in place is a good idea.
It's like he actually wants people to be using DSTs to turn carriers into even better versions of poor man's JF than they already are. Would you even need the skill to fly the DST in order to use it in that manner?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Dave Stark
#305 - 2014-05-20 20:39:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Would you even need the skill to fly the DST in order to use it in that manner?

i have an assembled and rigged bustard on this character. i just passed it to my alt who can not fly a bustard, and i was still able to fill the fleet hangar with junk.

picture for some reason. that error popped up because i tried to board it, to demonstrate that i can't actually fly the bustard.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#306 - 2014-05-20 20:52:52 UTC
If you put the DST into the carrier's SMA, can you still access its fleet hangar?

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Dave Stark
#307 - 2014-05-20 20:58:16 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
If you put the DST into the carrier's SMA, can you still access its fleet hangar?

no, there's no option to "expand" the ship maintenance bay like there is when you put containers in a fleet hangar

as seen here
also, the DST hasn't been given it's new size so we can put it in an orca, which means there are probably other changes that haven't happened and why we're seeing sisi contradict fozzie.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#308 - 2014-05-20 20:58:36 UTC
I don't think my hauler alt will ever touch his Iteron V again after June 3rd.
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#309 - 2014-05-20 22:02:08 UTC
I found them way to slow to align even full of inertia stab and their Ehp isn't that great too begin with .
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#310 - 2014-05-20 23:16:06 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
....
So our plan for revamping them is to give them a strong and stable carrying capacity in the form of a large fleet hangar. Besides creating interesting options for group play, this fleet hangar does not pressure a pilot into fitting rigs or expanded cargoholds for max carrying capacity.
....


Consider the same change for the Orca. Having three holds is a pain for mining. You need to shuffle ore between the three holds while you are filling, then empty three when dumping. Its extra clicks for no apparent improvement in game play.

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Bren Genzan
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
#311 - 2014-05-21 00:09:12 UTC
I was wondering: Why did you decrease the DST cargo hold volume?

My thoughts are simply that the Orca already has a role as a mining booster but it still carries more cargo than a DST. The Freighter is a long train and very expensive, and in many cases, people who do not carry cargo for a living use them to move cargo well below their capacity. These freighters sit idle for long periods of time because their part time freighter pilots do not like flying freighters, so they only fly when they have to. Jump Freighters, sitting between Freighter and Orcas in capacity, are prohibitively expensive, but also have a defined role.

I believe that a new player accessible mid sized hauler in the 150k to 200K m3 range, that warps faster than a freighter, would be a powerful workhorse for younger players looking to get into the supercargo profession. It would also find use by the veteran player who wants to grab some stuff and move it NOW, and really doesn't want to train up the skills for freighters, or pay a lot of isk for a ship they will not use that much..

In the interest of disclosure, I am a pilot with a freighter and an Orca fit to haul. I use my Orca more than my freighter and T1 haulers more than my Orca. I use RF for most of my large cargo needs. For the cost of a freighter, you can pay someone else to move at least 30 million m3 of materials for you, 40-50 trips, all insured by collateral.

I use my Blockade runner all the time in null sec. I own a Transport ship that pretty much never leaves the dock.

My Bustard is named "Terrible Ship", so I look forward to any changes that increases its use, but without a much bigger capacity, I can't see choosing it over the Orca or the Freighter.
Doritos God Legend
Perkone
Caldari State
#312 - 2014-05-21 00:53:04 UTC
@Fozzie,

Could you please reconsider the +5% Velocity (per skill level) attribute for DST's? This attribute seems really out of place, a -2% MMJD spool time, improved align time, armour bonus, or anything else would be good. I guess with these changes, the velocity modifier would work well with the burst tank defence, as I assume you want to tank as much as possible, while travelling as fast as possible to the gate you just entered from.
Anonymous Forumposter
State War Academy
Caldari State
#313 - 2014-05-21 00:55:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Anonymous Forumposter
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
....
So our plan for revamping them is to give them a strong and stable carrying capacity in the form of a large fleet hangar. Besides creating interesting options for group play, this fleet hangar does not pressure a pilot into fitting rigs or expanded cargoholds for max carrying capacity.
....


Consider the same change for the Orca. Having three holds is a pain for mining. You need to shuffle ore between the three holds while you are filling, then empty three when dumping. Its extra clicks for no apparent improvement in game play.


The Orca already has a "Strong and stable carrying capacity in the form of a large fleet hangar".

The Orca already has "interesting options for group play"

As for your complaint about the three cargo holds, I feel all are justified and appropriate. Your cargohold lets you protect your goodies when allowing fleet members to use your fleet hangar. The Ore hangar plays into it's intended role as a MINING SUPPORT SHIP without giving it overpowered hauling capacity. Raw ore is very large, should they remove the Ore hangar and increase the size of the fleet hangar, it would NOT get +50km3. It would be a much smaller increase in size due to it being general cargo. This would take AWAY from it's intended role as a MINING SUPPORT SHIP. Thus being a BAD IDEA.
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#314 - 2014-05-21 02:06:38 UTC
does the cargobays on DST remain un-scannable, and is this also applied to the fleet hangar on the DST ?

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Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#315 - 2014-05-21 02:20:54 UTC
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
....
So our plan for revamping them is to give them a strong and stable carrying capacity in the form of a large fleet hangar. Besides creating interesting options for group play, this fleet hangar does not pressure a pilot into fitting rigs or expanded cargoholds for max carrying capacity.
....


Consider the same change for the Orca. Having three holds is a pain for mining. You need to shuffle ore between the three holds while you are filling, then empty three when dumping. Its extra clicks for no apparent improvement in game play.


The Orca already has a "Strong and stable carrying capacity in the form of a large fleet hangar".

The Orca already has "interesting options for group play"

As for your complaint about the three cargo holds, I feel all are justified and appropriate. Your cargohold lets you protect your goodies when allowing fleet members to use your fleet hangar. The Ore hangar plays into it's intended role as a MINING SUPPORT SHIP without giving it overpowered hauling capacity. Raw ore is very large, should they remove the Ore hangar and increase the size of the fleet hangar, it would NOT get +50km3. It would be a much smaller increase in size due to it being general cargo. This would take AWAY from it's intended role as a MINING SUPPORT SHIP. Thus being a BAD IDEA.

Indeed.. almost remember as many, if not MORE Orca's are used for things OTHER than mining fleets. Be it transporting goods, as a mobile base, home sweet home for just about anyone that runs Incursions, etc.

Just be happy there aren't all the corp hanger divisions anymore.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#316 - 2014-05-21 02:22:49 UTC
Freelancer117 wrote:
does the cargobays on DST remain un-scannable, and is this also applied to the fleet hangar on the DST ?

I dont believe DSTs were ever unscannable. The blockade runners are. However this might be a nice addition depending on some things.
Tharin Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#317 - 2014-05-21 02:33:02 UTC
Bren Genzan wrote:
My thoughts are simply that the Orca already has a role as a mining booster but it still carries more cargo than a DST. The Freighter is a long train and very expensive, and in many cases, people who do not carry cargo for a living use them to move cargo well below their capacity. These freighters sit idle for long periods of time because their part time freighter pilots do not like flying freighters, so they only fly when they have to. Jump Freighters, sitting between Freighter and Orcas in capacity, are prohibitively expensive, but also have a defined role.

I believe that a new player accessible mid sized hauler in the 150k to 200K m3 range, that warps faster than a freighter, would be a powerful workhorse for younger players looking to get into the supercargo profession. It would also find use by the veteran player who wants to grab some stuff and move it NOW, and really doesn't want to train up the skills for freighters, or pay a lot of isk for a ship they will not use that much.
Quoting for emphasis. I've never understood the enormous gap between the haulers. Let the Orca relax. A hauler in between it and the T1 industrials is needed. Something with good tank, speed, survivability, and all the things people love about this heretofore completely unfortunate ship line.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#318 - 2014-05-21 03:06:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Ok, some interesting concerns have been brought up that I think are reflective of a few symptomatic problems we're having here, and some answers that might help.

1. People complaining about how DST are superseding orcas for transport purposes.

OF COURSE THEY ARE. Orcas were never intended to be the go-between of the indies and freighters. It is an industrial command ship, and should stick to presiding over mining ops. While its myriad hangers and utility is nice, its intended role is NOT courier work. DSTs are being put where they should be, which is secure hauling of large amounts of goods, between industrials and freighters.

2. The ships are becoming too homogenous.

Yes they are, and while they could have a little more in the way of difference, I have agree that their particular roles don't exactly demand a wide variety out of them. Despite this, I would very much like to see the mastodon and occater get their speed bonus replaced with agility, and the bustard and impel get missile bonuses with a slot or two swapped for two highs each, and given a total of 4 launchers with bonuses (5% firing rate for impel, 10% kin damage for bustard) to give them the option to fight back a little or be used in defensive exotic pvp situations. An unbonused drone bay on the occator for 20/40 bandwidth and space would be very nice.

3. This will change wh landscape, especially C1.

I admit that this is a pretty severe issue that needs some serious consideration. Here's a pretty simple solution: increase the mass of the larger cargo haulers, both the DSTS and their t1 counterparts, to quite a bit larger than they are, and possibly the model a bit too. If they can haul battleships around in their cargohold, they should be roughly around the same size of them, and almost as heavy.
This would balance some of the mass-limit issues that are being raised, and can easily integrated statistically and lore-wise since much of their statistics outline them as being quite a bit larger than their fast-transport counterparts, and lore-wise it already makes sense considering the spaciousness of their holds and how the 'stronger' t2 materials can compensate for more base interior room for these proportionately cavernous fleet hangers.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#319 - 2014-05-21 03:11:54 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
Sigh, wrong picture. Here's the right one http://puu.sh/8UdTt/e9376a3c47.jpg


guess that means we can change DSTs back to a sensible size so we can put them in the orca after all.

edit: it helps if i get my short hand right.


Yup, anyone who has experience in mining will know that you can't put your Hulk back in your Orca if there's ore in the ore bay. This is especially important if you think you can switch from your Hulk to your Basilisk when gankers arrive to try and take down the Orca. In the good old days, the unpiloted Hulk would be ejected into space and you would board your Basilisk. At least losing a 150M ISK Hulk to a thief was less punishing than losing the 500M ISK Orca.

So Fozzie, can you please put the size back to the point where you can put a DST in the SMB of the Orca?

Of course if you change it up so that I can fit two full mackinaws in the SMB, I won't be too upset.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#320 - 2014-05-21 03:14:20 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Good. That's the simple solution. I don't know why Fozzie is trying to go for the most convoluted thing possible.
Some problems seem to solve themselves.


Some problems never existed.