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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

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Steijn
Quay Industries
#661 - 2014-05-18 10:47:21 UTC
Loki Feiht wrote:
Steijn wrote:
Kaius Fero wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Kaius Fero wrote:
I hate ganking, but If this idiocy will hit TQ I will start bumping day and night every freighter that will pass Uedama and Niarja until people will stop hauling and all industry will go to hell.


i like that you're ambitious, but i think bumping freighters in 1 high sec system isn't likely to cause a shutdown of industry.

I have to test this on SISI, but I'm pretty sure that I can bounce on 4-5 freighters at once preventing them to warp away. If more than 2-3 people do this, they could completely shut down a choke point as Uedama. It would be hilarious to do the bumping with a Prospect.


uedama/sivala/niarja, wouldnt take much.


How about starting an initiative to start suicide ganking any type of freighter that passes, especially jf's?
that should mess with things quite nicely if you get enough people.


er, im not a ganker, i was just pointing out that it wouldnt take much to stop freighters going from Jita to Amarr/Dixie/Hek etc
soorajgk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#662 - 2014-05-18 10:55:38 UTC
Any predictions on how redfrog and pushx going to charge per jump after the rebalance
Arec Bardwin
#663 - 2014-05-18 11:00:07 UTC
The logistics guys all over EVE feels CCP Fozzie's lovin, like a kick in the balls Big smile
Laiannah Sahireen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#664 - 2014-05-18 11:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Laiannah Sahireen
I've supported and defended the dev team in pretty much every change they've made in quite some time, even when it negatively affected me or I really didn't personally like it.

This, however? This pisses me off. I put a hell of a lot of training into my Ark, it doesn't even hold that much (2nd smallest JF) and it cost me 6 billion isk. I bought it to help out my alliance with stuff they need from trade hubs and can't get easy access to.

Now, I have to pay another 1.5 billion isk to be able to carry on transporting the same unimpressive quantity of cargo? Or pay 160 mil to get nerfed *less* hard and still lose a bunch of armour HP?

Oh and of course lose that almost respectable align time that I had before. Because JFs were clearly evading gatecamps by insta-warping.

CCP, please please please think really hard about why you're making these nerfs. If it's some weird notion that you want everybody to produce everything locally like some kind of deep space farmers' market, then it's a really misguided one, because alliances like mine that are only a couple of hundred people can't produce *all* their own stuff, especially in lowsec, and actually be able to spend time doing the PVP we love.
If you really think JFs are that overpowered, how about waiting for the results of your aggressive jump fuel price hike first, rather than nerfing agility, cargo AND HP all in one go?

Seriously, these are beautiful, specialised ships - please don't ruin them.
Lisa Sophie d'Elancourt
Empusa.
#665 - 2014-05-18 11:06:40 UTC
No reason, no purpose, no value for game quality - just absurd nerf for the nerf. Very disappointing.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#666 - 2014-05-18 11:09:21 UTC
Laiannah Sahireen wrote:
I've supported and defended the dev team in pretty much every change they've made in quite some time, even when it negatively affected me or I really didn't personally like it.

This, however? This pisses me off. I put a hell of a lot of training into my Ark, it doesn't even hold that much (2nd smallest JF) and it cost me 6 billion isk. I bought it to help out my alliance with stuff they need from trade hubs and can't get easy access to.

Now, I have to pay another 1.5 billion isk to be able to carry on transporting the same unimpressive quantity of cargo? Or pay 160 mil to get nerfed *less* hard and still lose a bunch of armour HP?

Oh and of course lose that almost respectable align time that I had before. Because JFs were clearly evading gatecamps by insta-warping.

CCP, please please please think really hard about why you're making these nerfs. If it's some weird notion that you want everybody to produce everything locally like some kind of deep space farmers' market, then it's a really misguided one, because alliances like mine that are only a couple of hundred people can't produce *all* their own stuff, especially in lowsec, and actually be able to spend time doing the PVP we love.
If you really think JFs are that overpowered, how about waiting for the results of your aggressive jump fuel price hike first, rather than nerfing agility, cargo AND HP all in one go?

Seriously, these are beautiful, specialised ships - please don't ruin them.


... JFs are evading gatecamps, yes. they evade all forms of pvp.
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#667 - 2014-05-18 11:10:24 UTC
Laiannah Sahireen wrote:


Seriously, these are beautiful, specialised ships - please don't ruin them.


I run Anshars and they are ugly as hell, but I try not to zoom in close enough to see anyway
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#668 - 2014-05-18 11:10:26 UTC
Maybe if Fozzie would like to edit the OP with a few paragraphs of their reasoning for this?

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#669 - 2014-05-18 11:16:00 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
Maybe if Fozzie would like to edit the OP with a few paragraphs of their reasoning for this?



The reason is easy.

People asked for the rigs.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#670 - 2014-05-18 11:16:25 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
my words fail me....Fozzy are you so out of touch with your game?
i'm sorry but this changes are ********; yea, that's the right word;

you are making freighter/jf more easy to gank in a game where you can kill a 7 bil ship just for lol with several t1 destroiers? where is the "balance" in that? where is the well known "risk vs reward" slogan you tossing around so proud?
you are basically nerfing all freighter class so baddly that they need to fit cargo rigs after this, those making them easy to gank; not only that but shifting the hull/armor/shield ratio, even if one fit for ehp the result wil be a massive nerf;

i've been playing this game for some time now; 10 years; but i'm really start to feel that i don't belong here; that i don't recognize this game; well maybe it's me getting to old... but really, this should be an "industry patch" buff and you are nefing the core of the industrial ships??? let me ask again: how out of touch are you with this game?
maybe you think pvp is everything for this game, but by this changer you even nerf the entire pvp for the small benefit of some of the "pvpers" aka gankers;

and let me tell you another thing: if this goes life, i'll be out there ganking every freighter/jf i can; there is no need for me to spend my time doing anything else, this will be the most profitable and fun activity in the game;
Arec Bardwin
#671 - 2014-05-18 11:17:49 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
Maybe if Fozzie would like to edit the OP with a few paragraphs of their reasoning for this?

An updated tally of amount of tears collected so far would be nice as well.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#672 - 2014-05-18 11:21:26 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
I was looking forward to the ADDED CHOICE these changes would bring, but instead they REMOVE CHOICECry

[…]

Post-Kronos Rigs:
Rig 1: No choice → Capital Cargohold Optimization II (20% for 660,000), -150 Calibration
Rig 2: No choice → Capital Cargohold Optimization II (20% for 792,000), -150 Calibration
Rig 3: Limited Choice → 100 Calibration
You have plenty of choice for all three slots. There is nothing that says you must return to the old carrying capacity, and 2× T1 gets you close enough without the massive cost. You choose to dictate that you must get back to the old values on two slots alone. That is your choice. You can make a different one.

Axe Coldon wrote:
That is absurd. Nerf the normal freighters cargo I don't care. but getting 500k in a jf is not too much.
Seeing as JFs are often presented as offering a problematic ease of use and ease of logistics even in the 300k range, 500k certainly seems like it would stray into the “too much” category. I fully understand that it also makes them stray into the “very nice to have since they can now do stuff you normally need a freighter for” territory, but if anything, that just furthers the argument that it is too much.

Dave Stark wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Freighters were fine.

yes they were.

i'm personally hoping for a CCP 180 and say "yeah we'll leave freighters alone, but this is what balance looks like... be careful what you wish for". i doubt it will happen, though. so on a more realistic level; i think they should at least knock it down to large rigs (justification: orca) if they're not going to scrap these changes.

That would be glorious and a lesson for the ages (that will be forgotten by July). Lol

Freighters being fine was the argument against this change all along since they were very good in every aspect they needed to be good in. But no, “player choice” and “sacrificing a for b” (read: increasing the m³ and ignore what it would cost) was hammered home as much better to have than a spectacularly well-rounded ship.
Eto Tekai
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#673 - 2014-05-18 11:23:41 UTC
Bad changes CCP. Please revise this and do not remove any HP.
Laiannah Sahireen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#674 - 2014-05-18 11:27:42 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Laiannah Sahireen wrote:

Oh and of course lose that almost respectable align time that I had before. Because JFs were clearly evading gatecamps by insta-warping.
.


... JFs are evading gatecamps, yes. they evade all forms of pvp.


Good thing you quoted my entire post to reply to that one line - editing is hard, huh?

But seriously, despite trying to be objectionable and smug, you're supporting my point. JFs either avoid PVP completely, or they're caught like a beached whale if the pilot makes a mistake. Nerfing the align time won't make any difference to this - it will just make the daily routines of a JF pilot even more tedious.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#675 - 2014-05-18 11:36:25 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
If the goal is flexibility for a ship, and the result is a major overhaul to base stats, why stop at rigs? Rigs are traditionally a secondary form of augmentation. Mods are where the real flexibility comes in.

I recognize that could mean CCP does even more to the base stats and the end result might be a much bigger change than we are destined to get now. But why not just get it all out of the way now? Absorb a full freighter revamp that puts freighters on the same field as every other ship in the game. That way, we adapt to the big change (tears and all), but future rebalancing efforts would be at the margin and akin to the rebalancing associated with other ship classes.

Again, apologies to those that may have logically answered why this was a bad in the past.
You already hit on the reason: because it would basically mean reducing the ships to rubble and building them up from there. Their base stats would be horrible and people would ragequit over the nerfs in droves. The problem is that you have to balance for the extreme scenario, which means that the more reasonable ones always end up worse than before.

You have to adjust cargo with the guy who fills the lows and rig slots with nothing but cargo expansion in mind; you have to adjust tank with the guy who fills them with nothing but tank in mind; you have to adjust travel speed with the guy who fills them with speed mods in mind. The guy who wants a balance between cargo and agility and tank will end up with something that is mediocre in all three and which does not stack up to the old ships' capabilities because the overall baseline had to come down to compensate for those extremist fits.

I mean, yes, in a sense you're right. If they want to do it, they should just go all out, but that means freighters as we know them will be completely gone and a vastly different ship class will come in their place. Personally, I was always in the “don't nerf my freighter” camp so I would prefer to see them remain as they are, and with a fitted freighter class being added as a new (generally worse, but contextually better) option.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#676 - 2014-05-18 11:40:12 UTC
Laiannah Sahireen wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Laiannah Sahireen wrote:

Oh and of course lose that almost respectable align time that I had before. Because JFs were clearly evading gatecamps by insta-warping.
.


... JFs are evading gatecamps, yes. they evade all forms of pvp.


Good thing you quoted my entire post to reply to that one line - editing is hard, huh?

But seriously, despite trying to be objectionable and smug, you're supporting my point. JFs either avoid PVP completely, or they're caught like a beached whale if the pilot makes a mistake. Nerfing the align time won't make any difference to this - it will just make the daily routines of a JF pilot even more tedious.


not disagreeing. I'm only objecting to these changes because they aren't a proper gigantic real nerf like I wanted. I find it amusing hearing JF owners go on about how unfair this is and how hard they have things.
Lara Divinity
Pidgeon Cartel
#677 - 2014-05-18 11:43:46 UTC
played this game for the past 9 months now n all i c n hear is stuff beein nerfed an tbh just leave things the way they are instead of making things worse...or actually start fixing existing problems instead of adding more.
i am currently training for a freighter cos i needed the cargo space to haul stuff to base but now im even doubting to get one since it wont be much use anymore cargo goes down hp goes down everything goes down but u can add rigs worth as much as the ship itself to have the same like prepatch pffft just leave the damm freighters alone and actually fix existing problems first instead of creating new ones!
the way this game is goin really dissapoints me and just will end up n me and a whole bunch of other players leaving this game bcause its gettin to a point where achieving anything or training for somthing becomes tottally pointless.
hooray i can fly a freighter but if i want som decent cargo space i gotta spend another 1.5bill and then have a glass ship that a few catalysts can shoot right out of space there goes 3 billion Oops

stop making things worse n call it improvement this nerf sux and is tottally not fair to all jumpfreighter and freigther owners they had a good ship n get somthing ****** in return but oh u can spend 1.5 bill to have one stat improved are u fkin kiddin me ccp

like somebody else said b4 all i will c happening is player base dropping n venturing to new games whit less nerfing n rebalancing

if u dont know how to make things better then just leave them as they are instead of making things worse!!!
thumbs down this time...doubt if eve will survive another decade
Laiannah Sahireen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#678 - 2014-05-18 11:43:53 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
I'm only objecting to these changes because they aren't a proper gigantic real nerf like I wanted. I find it amusing hearing JF owners go on about how unfair this is and how hard they have things.


Translation: "I want massive nerfs to things that other people fly, but not what I fly. People upset about massive investments of time and isk being nerfed are automatically wrong"

That's cool - good to make it nice and clear you're not capable of intelligent discussion early in the encounter. Won't bother replying further.
The Ironfist
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#679 - 2014-05-18 11:46:43 UTC
Worst devpost since WiS... 4% more cargo on a Jumpfreighter if you use T2 rigs? But in turn you loss tons of agility tons of tank and you have to invest an extra 2 bill for these rigs... And what do you get? 4%? Really? It should be 4% more with T1 rigs and more like 15-20% with T2.. Seriously how is this balance. Jumpffreighters are going to be as easy to gank as freighters are right now.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#680 - 2014-05-18 11:47:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Ncc 1709
Are you going to rebalance the Fuel usage of the jf's now that they all have very similar cargo?

the extra expense of the rhea was justified by it being able to carry an extra battle ship compared to the other races, now that's no longer the case, the extra fuel expense isn't justified, and needs rebalancing too.

Also, Why do 3 races of JF get a 4% boost to max cargo while the rhea gets a 1.2% boost? Its Racism against Caldari logistics

If the cargo is going to be reduced by 2.8% the fuel usage should be reduced by 2.8% too