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A message regarding vandalism of the EVE Universe Monument

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Author
Merlin Sotken
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#141 - 2014-05-07 23:51:27 UTC
mkint wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Trish Tokila wrote:
mkint wrote:
Hmm... some of the guys involved turned themselves in, and still got perma-banned? Not condoning what they did in any way whatsoever, but doesn't such a harsh response disincentivize people in the future from admitting to what they've done while drunk?


Instead of facing international criminal charges, potentially spending time in real-person jail, and outrageous fines to replace this, the player can no longer play this online video game. Not only that, but CCP won't tell the community who to lynch.

Yeah, he's quite lucky that CCP has taken a lighter approach on this. A much more heavy fisted approach would not be out of line in this scenario.

Remember, he didn't blow someone's spaceship up without their consent. He's committed actually serious crime. In a world that's actually real whether we want it to be or not.
Pretty much this, and being drunk is a defence that won't stand in a any court that I know of.

Just to be clear... you think any country would extradite someone over vandalism? Isn't that just a misdemeanor? They might get perma-banned from iceland, but be realistic. Most people don't consider vandalism to be that big a deal (unless it happens to themselves.)


Depends on local laws. In the US if damages exceed a certain amount it is considered a felony not a misdemeanor.
Cole Terr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#142 - 2014-05-07 23:53:56 UTC
mkint wrote:
Hmm... some of the guys involved turned themselves in, and still got perma-banned? Not condoning what they did in any way whatsoever, but doesn't such a harsh response disincentivize people in the future from admitting to what they've done while drunk?


I don't disagree, but this may have been a case of "If you turn yourself in, you won't prosecute you".

If this game is important enough to these perpetrators, that they would deface the monument, then a permaban would probably hurt just as much, if not more so than being prosecuted.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#143 - 2014-05-08 00:04:39 UTC
Definitely do not name them.

We all saw the threats of RL violence made toward Erotica 1 after Ripard's witchhunt. This would probably be worse.

No comments on how suitable the punishment is because I simply do not know all the facts.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Pepper Solette
Doomheim
#144 - 2014-05-08 00:40:57 UTC
Welcome to the real world where action have consequences.

I sincerely hope that they do have to pay for the damage.

Good riddance to the idiots.

** Miko Sunji:  "There is no better way to find out if you can swim, than swimming for your life."**

mkint
#145 - 2014-05-08 00:43:57 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
scrambled wrote:
Bernie Nator wrote:
scrambled wrote:
mkint wrote:
Hmm... some of the guys involved turned themselves in, and still got perma-banned? Not condoning what they did in any way whatsoever, but doesn't such a harsh response disincentivize people in the future from admitting to what they've done while drunk?


Being drunk is not an excuse for doing stupid things, nor is it a "well thanks for turning yourself in, have a cookie" card. At least those who turned themselves in had some sort of moral compass to aim by, but you won't escape the fact that all actions have consequences. And unfortunately, the consequence here was a permanent ban. They'll have to deal with that.

Maybe an incentive to not get plastered off their faces...

That's not to say that being drunk is an excise. I know plenty of people who got sloshed at FI (self included) and didn't feel the end to deface the monument. Deface my own pride, sure, but a monument? That's low.


Well not saying that getting drunk is bad, just that people tend to put any sort of moral inhibitions aside when they are. Been there, done that, got a t-shirt too. It's just that many people will use the "yeah but I was drunk" excuse and expect to be let off without anything happening.

Actions have consequences; I mean, the consequences of you getting totally sloshed are your pride being a tad injured I think (and probably video/photo evidence of it being available too :P) and that's fine, it doesn't hurt anyone else but yourself.

Deciding you're going to **** up a monument because apparently internet spaceships are still serious business.... well. That's not just low, that's really, really, bloody stupid. And I hate that people argue that permanent bans are too harsh because "whoever did it was drunk". So what, they still did it. Live with the consequences I say :D

I'm not actually arguing that anything was okay. It was stupid. In fact, everything about it was stupid. I think building the monument itself was stupid. Letting an in-game argument or whatever spill over into real life was stupid. Reacting to it by defacing private property was stupid. Since it was a group, they were probably trying to impress eachother, which was stupid, and because it was fanfest, they were probably more drunk than they could handle, which was stupid. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

My only point of argument is that it appears that whoever chose to be honest isn't getting any leniency over those that chose to try to cover it up. There's been no dev comment to clear it up, but there's some pretty strong indications that they are going for the harshest punishments they've ever concocted for everyone involved. They don't take murder threats this seriously. (literally. I've tried to get help about a murder threat, and got a standard form letter and closed petition.) And the lesson here is... don't get caught. Because that seems to be the only part of this that matters.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Yumiko Shaku
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#146 - 2014-05-08 00:44:24 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
Is the Icelandic judicial system involved? I know it's a crime, but how far is CCP going?

Do you know the politics and cost involved in perusing a case of vandelism internationally, it's not worth the effort for the police I doubt they'll persue criminal proceedings.
Yumiko Shaku
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#147 - 2014-05-08 00:46:48 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
mkint wrote:
scrambled wrote:
Bernie Nator wrote:
scrambled wrote:
mkint wrote:
Hmm... some of the guys involved turned themselves in, and still got perma-banned? Not condoning what they did in any way whatsoever, but doesn't such a harsh response disincentivize people in the future from admitting to what they've done while drunk?


Being drunk is not an excuse for doing stupid things, nor is it a "well thanks for turning yourself in, have a cookie" card. At least those who turned themselves in had some sort of moral compass to aim by, but you won't escape the fact that all actions have consequences. And unfortunately, the consequence here was a permanent ban. They'll have to deal with that.

Maybe an incentive to not get plastered off their faces...

That's not to say that being drunk is an excise. I know plenty of people who got sloshed at FI (self included) and didn't feel the end to deface the monument. Deface my own pride, sure, but a monument? That's low.


Well not saying that getting drunk is bad, just that people tend to put any sort of moral inhibitions aside when they are. Been there, done that, got a t-shirt too. It's just that many people will use the "yeah but I was drunk" excuse and expect to be let off without anything happening.

Actions have consequences; I mean, the consequences of you getting totally sloshed are your pride being a tad injured I think (and probably video/photo evidence of it being available too :P) and that's fine, it doesn't hurt anyone else but yourself.

Deciding you're going to **** up a monument because apparently internet spaceships are still serious business.... well. That's not just low, that's really, really, bloody stupid. And I hate that people argue that permanent bans are too harsh because "whoever did it was drunk". So what, they still did it. Live with the consequences I say :D

I'm not actually arguing that anything was okay. It was stupid. In fact, everything about it was stupid. I think building the monument itself was stupid. Letting an in-game argument or whatever spill over into real life was stupid. Reacting to it by defacing private property was stupid. Since it was a group, they were probably trying to impress eachother, which was stupid, and because it was fanfest, they were probably more drunk than they could handle, which was stupid. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

My only point of argument is that it appears that whoever chose to be honest isn't getting any leniency over those that chose to try to cover it up. There's been no dev comment to clear it up, but there's some pretty strong indications that they are going for the harshest punishments they've ever concocted for everyone involved. They don't take murder threats this seriously. (literally. I've tried to get help about a murder threat, and got a standard form letter and closed petition.) And the lesson here is... don't get caught. Because that seems to be the only part of this that matters.


CCP stated that if they owned up they'd be lenient but by the sound of what Falcon posted they didn't own up some alliance members grassed them up, they probably went bragging on Mumble/TS about it before it all kicked off and someone who was on mumble at the time reported them.
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#148 - 2014-05-08 01:16:35 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
mkint wrote:
Hmm... some of the guys involved turned themselves in, and still got perma-banned? Not condoning what they did in any way whatsoever, but doesn't such a harsh response disincentivize people in the future from admitting to what they've done while drunk?


The guys that turned themselves in only got permabanned.


Yeah I don't think many people realize that it IS giving them a break by letting them off with a permaban.

The alternative was getting the police and courts involved.
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#149 - 2014-05-08 01:18:55 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Anderson
mkint wrote:
Marcus Trial wrote:
mkint wrote:
Hmm... some of the guys involved turned themselves in, and still got perma-banned? Not condoning what they did in any way whatsoever, but doesn't such a harsh response disincentivize people in the future from admitting to what they've done while drunk?

The soft response CCP took here was to ban the guy instead of letting the police investigate the matter any further.

So the lesson is to be better at not getting caught? It's not like any government is going to extradite someone to iceland over vandalism. Vandalism laws are barely even enforced in most US cities, unless there's assault charges involved too. I mean, it's not like there's never going to be real world crimes involved in EVE ever again.

I would definitely not mind seeing the guys beat black and blue over it, but bruises fade, but permabans are forever.


The monument is the property of the city, as CCP donated it to them. It wasn't simply vandalizing CCP's private property.

Also consider the money that went into this. The Artist they hired is NOT a nobody and is fairly well known in the art world.

Finally, in one of Falcon's updates he did mention that people personally visited CCP HQ with info on their alliance mate, and this was well after Fanfest was over.

So I wouldn't be surprised if the guilty party was a local (local to CCP) eve player.
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#150 - 2014-05-08 01:20:31 UTC
Glad to see the villains were apprehended. In-game beefs should stay precisely that - in-game beefs. I would hope that were I to meet even my worst enemy in the game in a real-life setting, we'd be able to grab some beers together and share some stories and laughs as friends. Eve is real, but it also isn't - some people need to learn that a game is just a game and that bringing negative stuff to irl just isn't cool.
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#151 - 2014-05-08 01:26:46 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
What steps has CCP taken (or plans to take) to prevent future abuse/vandalism of the monument?


Not to mention that it's in the harbor and exposed to the elements. :/
Lady Areola Fappington
#152 - 2014-05-08 01:29:12 UTC
Money Makin Mitch wrote:
Glad to see the villains were apprehended. In-game beefs should stay precisely that - in-game beefs. I would hope that were I to meet even my worst enemy in the game in a real-life setting, we'd be able to grab some beers together and share some stories and laughs as friends. Eve is real, but it also isn't - some people need to learn that a game is just a game and that bringing negative stuff to irl just isn't cool.



Couldn't agree more, and I wish I had more likes to give. You could be my sworn enemy in EVE, -10 and target for eternity...but the second we hit that log out button, we're both just EVE players. We share a hobby, and even (sane) people in other competitive hobbies leave the competition at the door when it's time to throw back and get together.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Pix Severus
Empty You
#153 - 2014-05-08 01:33:57 UTC
I'm happy that this embarassment to the community can be put behind us now.

However, there's a niggling feeling in the back of my mind that this won't be the last drama surrounding the monument in the years to come.

MTU Hunter: Latest Entry - June 12 2017 - Vocal Local 5

MTU Hunting 101: Comprehensive Guide

Entity
X-Factor Industries
Synthetic Existence
#154 - 2014-05-08 01:57:02 UTC
Money Makin Mitch wrote:
Glad to see the villains were apprehended. In-game beefs should stay precisely that - in-game beefs. I would hope that were I to meet even my worst enemy in the game in a real-life setting, we'd be able to grab some beers together and share some stories and laughs as friends. Eve is real, but it also isn't - some people need to learn that a game is just a game and that bringing negative stuff to irl just isn't cool.


^ this.

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║.╔╗╔╗╔╣.╔╗╠..╠ ╠╗╠╝.║╠ ╠╝║║║╚╗

╩═╚╝║.╚╝.╚╝║..╚╝║║╚╝.╩╚╝╚╝║.║╚╝

Got Item?

KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#155 - 2014-05-08 03:52:39 UTC  |  Edited by: KIller Wabbit
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
Is the Icelandic judicial system involved? I know it's a crime, but how far is CCP going?

That is probably an issue between CCP, the criminal system and the accused. We don't have any need to know.


Whether we need to or not, if something does come down will be come a matter of public record...
Shurgin Ambraelle
Vagrants Against Gankers In Null Alliances
Single Mother Support Squad
#156 - 2014-05-08 03:56:36 UTC
I have like most been following this to the minute as this came out just a few days ago. No trolling please. First off CCP has to set a tone, which they did, of what expectations you would see if there was an issue that resulted in a harrassment towards another player. The situation is obviously elevated due to the fact of the destruction of EVE/CCP property. I am not going to beat a dead horse. Although it may seem harsh it seems they are closing the issues at hand and moving on. In which case we all should. Some of you may think, "shouls the council have been involved?" My opinion... No. Not that they wouldn't have done their due dilligence but that this was a direct attack on CCP and they are the proverbial king of this universe. I applaude CCP with their quick reaction. Their public manners in keeping the names of the accused protected. Avoiding the knee jerk reaction to immidiately blame a player with the same name. Also their hearing the cries of wanting justice for this pathetic display of human character. I applaude the people who came forward as I would have done the same. I think everyone here is satisfied with the outcome. Now lets get back to work and pop some reds.

The Biggest FUCer of them all!! RL COMES 1ST!!

-The Gene Pool Could Use a Little Chlorine!! Proud Member of InPanic!!

KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#157 - 2014-05-08 03:57:44 UTC
Trish Tokila wrote:
mkint wrote:
Hmm... some of the guys involved turned themselves in, and still got perma-banned? Not condoning what they did in any way whatsoever, but doesn't such a harsh response disincentivize people in the future from admitting to what they've done while drunk?


Instead of facing international criminal charges, potentially spending time in real-person jail, and outrageous fines to replace this, the player can no longer play this online video game. Not only that, but CCP won't tell the community who to lynch.

Yeah, he's quite lucky that CCP has taken a lighter approach on this. A much more heavy fisted approach would not be out of line in this scenario.

Remember, he didn't blow someone's spaceship up without their consent. He's committed actually serious crime. In a world that's actually real whether we want it to be or not.



Uh, you might want to read what Falcon said again - he said any police action would not be discussed. He didn't say they weren't charged/fined/jailed/etc etc etc
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#158 - 2014-05-08 04:22:53 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Trish Tokila wrote:
mkint wrote:
Hmm... some of the guys involved turned themselves in, and still got perma-banned? Not condoning what they did in any way whatsoever, but doesn't such a harsh response disincentivize people in the future from admitting to what they've done while drunk?


Instead of facing international criminal charges, potentially spending time in real-person jail, and outrageous fines to replace this, the player can no longer play this online video game. Not only that, but CCP won't tell the community who to lynch.

Yeah, he's quite lucky that CCP has taken a lighter approach on this. A much more heavy fisted approach would not be out of line in this scenario.

Remember, he didn't blow someone's spaceship up without their consent. He's committed actually serious crime. In a world that's actually real whether we want it to be or not.



Uh, you might want to read what Falcon said again - he said any police action would not be discussed. He didn't say they weren't charged/fined/jailed/etc etc etc


Well in the previously thread he did say he was giving a chance to the individuals involved, inviting them to come forward in order to avoid the greater consequences.

I took that as saying, it's your decision if you want the authorities involved or not.

Then again, no way to know for sure.
JaseNZ
EG CORP
#159 - 2014-05-08 07:35:30 UTC
I found out about the monument from a friend of mine that went to Fanfest (you better have grabbed me some cool souvenirs Bernie! lol) and explained the whole thing to me, as I haven't been terribly active lately due to RL commitments.

I was quite frankly amazed. Thanks CCP, I think the monument is awesome, I've looked up my characters and they're all immortalised on there :D

Then I found out it had been vandalised, I was PISSED!

To the alliance mates of the person(s) responsible, thank you for doing the noble thing and reporting it.

To the person(s) responsible, I don't hold any ill will against you...I will likely never know who you are, so no point in getting worked up over it...I just have ill will against your actions.

We've likely all done regrettable things in our lives...we pay a price, learn from it, make ourselves better, and move on.

Thank you CCP for handling this in a swift and professional manner.
valerydarcy
Doomheim
#160 - 2014-05-08 08:33:09 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
What steps has CCP taken (or plans to take) to prevent future abuse/vandalism of the monument?


We will make several offerings to the Huldufólk (elves) to watch over it and bring mischief and misery to those who stand against us.


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