EVE Information Portal

why are you discriminating against my titans

also though thanks for the clarification on the in-build BPOS, that's very helpful for planning for summer

When players started pointing out that BPOs can't be locked down at a POS, therefore, corporate theft, therefore a gazillion alt corps running super hardened high sec large POS, I figured you guys would think.... I guess that little extra ISK sink that would come from 2 BPOs a year getting destroyed in a POS bash just isn't worth the incredibly painful grind this very stupid change is going to put onto industrialists.....

I guess I was wrong. Moving forward with this change shows you really do enjoy torturing your industrialists with incredibly painful grind....

R.A.M & R.Db's point definately makes sense since more will be consumed instead of them 'decaying'
Second and 3rd points - boosts to player structures nice, still waiting on the price for it

Final bulleted point and example: Good to know that they know changing remote jobs is gonna screw things...
Decentralizing BP location when adding feature to run from containers is akin to look we fixed things but now we are gonna break it in different manner. I have yet to see how forcing BPs into a starbase offers anything genuinely in line with all 3 let alone 2 of the benchmarks stated for this expansion


(From the announcement, they where numbered 1-3 but didn't translate in copy and paste)

I've already debunked the moving BPs to starbase premise of the #2 principle in at least two of my past posts, myself losing a print due to this change is rather unlikely it is a more of an annoyance issue and fixing something that wasn't really broke.

I'll even throw out my own example:
Willie Coyote Corp has 2+ starbases in a system and 1 office. WCC does different things at different starbases say 1 is research the other is production. Under current system there is no issues, the same BPO can transition from research to manufactor instantly assuming of course the array was loaded with mats. Different permissions can be used for the members who run the jobs and those who move the materials ie finished product or BPC's
Post expansion as stated. WCC now will either have someone move the BP's for S&I guys or give them the permissions to do so themselves.

I see the risk all too well member theft due to undermining corporate roles and controls, Reward? More corporate drama and theft. Hey guys if that is what you are promoting might as well say so up front.

I hear your concern. One of the things people tend to fail to understand about inflation is that it is not a factor of TOTAL MONEY/TOTAL GOODS. It is, in fact, a factor of only the money that is actively trying to buy goods and services.

In the USA now, something like 80% of the wealth is owned by 10% of the population. Those 10% of the population are not actively trying to spend those trillions of dollars. They only want to loan it out, so they can earn interest on the debt and get even richer. This concentration of money into the hand of the fw is exactly why the Federal Reserve has been able to buy bonds, putting money into the hands of people, without creating inflation. The people into whose hands they are putting money, simply do not spend the money, and instead look to loan it back out.


So, I beleive the same is happening in EVE. Money flows in through bounties, NPC buy orders of wormhole blue loot, etc. It gets spent and ends up in the hands of other players, and then other players and other players.... and eventually ends up in teh wallets of a few very rich players, coalitions, alliances.

So, with a few individuals growing ever richer, what can be done?

This "tax on everyone" in the form of slot fees is not, in my opinion, going to address the problem. Like sales tax (VAT) in the real world, it just takes money from people that spend it, NOT the people that do not spend it.


Real world, the way we've been able to deal with money hoarding by the few is with a very steep income tax with large deductions for actual spending. That works. That gets the money out of the hands of the very few, insanely rich, and back flowing through the economy.

In EVE, I a not sure how we could implement that, other than some sort of "wallet tax". 1% per month tax on your ISK balance of your personal and corporate wallets. Combine that with this slot fee to soak up the extra fee, and POOF, that is how you eliminate ISK expansion.


Honestly, I've learned a TON about real world economics from comparing and contrasting it to EVE's economy.

This. This is my primary concern with this update. This is primarily how I see it affecting me personally. I'm having a truly hard time imagining A) that NPC taxes are going to be so exhorbitant as to make 300-500M in fuel costs more cost effective or B) the efficiency being so astoundingly much greater as to justify the expense of dropping a pos as opposed to just paying even the 14%. I truly hope you guys are treading carefully here, and that we'll see the appropriate devlog ASAP.

TLDR: Surely this isn't mainly about ISK sinks, it's about highsec and nullsec.

Above posts are spot-on...we don't have inflation because the velocity of the money supply is low (Tarawa's point) and because the total volume of transactions involving goods is high and growing (output growth). This is kiddie monetarism stuff.

An even better analysis of the EVE economy would see ISK as just another resource (albeit with some special properties) with a "bucket" model of sink and fountain. Other resources have buckets, too, though--minerals have fountains (loot, mining) and sinks (module destruction) and hoarders; salvage has fountains (exploration, PvE salvaging) and sinks (rig destruction); LP items have fountains (missions and incursions etc.) and sinks (module, implant destruction)...it goes on. We regularly trade resources between the buckets, too (ISK for minerals; sell minerals for ISK to buy rigs; etc.).

The challenge for CCP is to do interbucket balance and intrabucket balance.

Interbucket balance is what we're talking about when we talk about ISK inflation. But you could also talk about salvage prices coming down post-exploration as an aspect of interbucket balance. The challenge with interbucket balance is for CCP to make sure products are cheap enough for everybody to get some if they want it. Hence turning on the salvage fountain -> less valuable with respect to other buckets, including ISK -> cheaper for everybody else to use rigs. Turn on the moon goo fountain -> less valuable with respect to other buckets, especially because of an ideal diffusion of control -> cheaper for everybody else to use T2 items.

Intrabucket balance involves making sure that the fountains and sinks inside a bucket don't destroy each other. You could criticize the exploration sites and now reprocessing changes as possibly changing the balance of salvage fountains in a way that destroys one fountain and hence one activity (salvage/loot in missions). Same deal for minerals (drone poop too much minerals -> nerf and help mining -> now help mining more by nerfing normal PvE loot drops). You could also see CCP needing to nerf incursions to give balance to other ISK fountains like L4 missions and null ratting.

Like several people have implied, we're not having ISK price inflation; in other words, the contents of the ISK bucket are not getting that especially less valuable than other buckets right now. But we know that the bucket is getting heavier every day. That must mean that a) part of that bucket isn't in play, e.g. hoarding is acting as a kind of temporary ISK sink (Tarawa's point), and b) the other buckets are also getting heavier, e.g. more people mining in safe renter systems, etc.

The main worry with a "heavy" bucket is thus that some of the resources in the bucket could come out of hoarding and into play to produce large shocks; imagine if some corporation with twenty trillion ISK suddenly put that in play in a minor trade hub or on a minor resource in Jita. Tarawa points out that this new ISK sink would probably NOT solve the heavy bucket problem because it would be a consumption tax, not an asset or property tax. So this main worry is hopefully not the reason CCP is making this change.

Presumably CCP knows this and models the economy this way. So while the ISK sink benefits might be on a bullet point list somewhere, the real reason for the change is the nullsec vs. highsec issue. That's why many of the discussions of this issue involve nullsec vs. highsec (see Jester's Trek, Fiddler's Edge, Seraph, anybody...). CCP wants to make it at least plausible to make stuff in nullsec. Just like with reprocessing--if everybody has perfect refine already, how do you give a bonus?--CCP wanted to introduce a new cost that they could then alleviate as a bonus for nullsec to balance things out. We don't have the numbers yet to know how much that will act as a nerf on highsec. But at the end of the day, that is what the changes are mainly about.

@LHA Tarawa

It is specifically stated as a taxes

(section of OP)

---

As it has been pointed out to me every time I've made a real world comparison "Eve is not Real Life" so I have instead adopted a lore/common sense approuch to my arguements.

Lore and common sense wise:
NPC stations realistically could scale their S&I with the increased "burden" of course they could charge a premium to offset their "burden" same NPC stations could reasonably be in an agreement on how much the scaling surcharge would be.

Capsuleers however are not, nor should be under an universal mandate of equity or even citizens of any given empire
Operating costs in fuel and other resources - supported by Lore
Requiring charters for high-sec operation (and having standings) - supported by Lore and logical
POCO in high-sec with built in tax then corp assigned tax - supported by Lore in that empire space is controlled so to permit the continued existence of that type of orbital platform they can demand compensation

There are already Lore associated and logical isk sinks in the game every order buy or sell has fees and or taxes, services provided only or in the majority by NPC groups and stations.

And referencing back to quoted line from the original post, cost is never zero to begin with there are always costs and is always under some degree of control even so far as to limit production or suspend/cancel it in entirety. Some of the economic hyperboley posted by various people would have private business owners in coughing fits from laughing so hard.

Just depends on how quickly the formula scales up, right? If it only takes ten items to get to max or if POSs contribute to systemwide congestion, things get much hairier for today's solo indy alt corp people. We just need to see numbers to see whether this is nullsec-highsec balance or a highsec nerf.

I have another question for CCP.

Will the anchoring of POSes in 0.8-1.0 systems extend to other anchorables as well, or is it just for POSes and their associated modules?