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Why waste everyone's time with a rhetorical question, Malcanis? State your point if you have one.

Are you going to dispute that only a very small minority cares about S&I in 00 sec? For those, a buff without this ridiculous stuff happening around High sec S&I would have been enough.

I also point back to this question in expectation of a satisfying answer.

I don't even think industry in null should be buffed...why should it? I am happy that S&I is being addressed but in my opinion it should be for the betterment of the game features not the betterment of profit in any one area. I think I've already made clear my view that hisec *should* be better for S&I anyway...waiting for reasoned arguments as to why this shouldn't be the case and I'm surprised I haven't received any yet...

/sign

I would really appreciate early information about all the number stuff and most importantly on the actual planned date for the patch. Changes of that magnitude require a not so tiny amount of preparation on the side of us industrialists, i.e. I'd like to prepare all my upcoming ME/PE stuff to be timed so that it finishes right before the changes hit.

Ah, and CCP, please clarify the issue regarding queuing of jobs under the new system (saving costs by queuing vs. being forced to swallow scaling taxes).

Would be interesting to see the stats on capital investment compared to return on that too for nullsec activities compared to losec and hisec...

Well, if they do go chronologically, the blogs that really matter are at the end.
Assuming the new release is in early June, what, 6 weeks away, the Greyscale blogs, the ones that really matter, will be out a few days before the release, since it has been almost a week since the last one.

Or, they could end up releasing all of them at Fanfest.

I won't wait for Malcanis to answer. I can do it.

First we need to separate out what is actually S&I and what is not. Ratting, exploration, plexing, salvaging, and missions are not S&I. They are PvE. There is no science or industry in any of those. Why you included those in your post is unknown to me other than to possibly provide a false sense of correctness that does not exist. I think they call that a Straw-Man argument. I could be wrong.

Exploration is a bit fuzzy because it involves the gathering of science-related materials. But at no point do you have to engage in any science or industry to do that. You do not need an industrial ship. In fact, the best ships for data and relic sites are covops (combat) frigates, the SoE faction frigate and cruiser, and exploration-fit strategic cruisers. So that leaves moons, gases, mining, and manufacturing.

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/reactions/

Moon mining, moon goo reactions, gas harvesting, and drug mfg, can only be done in 0.3 space or lower. Fullerenes (precursors to hybrid polymers) can only be gathered in w-space. So they cannot be compared to hisec except in strictly by profitability or lack thereof.

The best reaction is Fermionic Condensates, a moon goo reaction. The listed net for that reaction is apx. 1.3B isk per month, before POS fuel, transportation costs, and market fees are considered. It can only be produced in 0.3 sec or lower. The preferred tower type is Gallente and it will run you 40 blocks per hour. 40 blocks per hour * 24 hours * 30 days * 15,000 isk/block = 432,000,000 isk per month. So the tower will eat up a huge chunk of your net. It leaves just about enough to PLEX 1 account and afford a T2 cruiser once a month. It can be done with 1 character, though 2 or more is typical.

Any complex reaction requires a large tower. So any complex reaction that shows a profit of less than the fuel cost is a loss if you bought the materials off the market.

For the nulsec dwellers that own the moons, they operate vast numbers of towers to run all the reactions required to get to that level of profitability. Every tower used to operate an unprofitable reaction eats of profits. Fuel costs eat up the lion's share of the potential profits and greatly increases the amount of effort required.

Hisec industry requires... all of 4 steps.

1. Buy mins remotely.
2. Courier contract to factory remotely.
3. Build stuff remotely.
4. Courier contract back to market remotely.
5. Profit?

Mining can be done anywhere. The profitability (or lack thereof) is entirely dependent on the mineral value of the ores and how much volume of ore a miner can pull per a given amount of time. Since the Jita value of the mineral content of ice and ore is the same in nulsec as in hisec, we have a solid basis for comparison.

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ore/
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ore/ice.html

In almost all categories, ice is better isk/hr than any ore. The most profitable ice is Dark Glitter. This is available only in 0.1 or lower sec space. So in that way, yes, you are right. But other ices are available in hisec, and they are almost all worth more than any nulsec ore. So, no, mining is not strictly better in nulsec than in hisec. An ice miner in hisec can make just as much as if he were in nulsec with much less risk.

Manufacturing is in no way more profitable in nulsec if you are importing raw materials and exporting finished product. The markets there are much smaller due to the obviously lower population density. If you can source enough raw materials for your products and there is enough demand, you can make a decent living.

The primary industry in nulsec is supercapital/titan production. For years this has depended on mineral compression to function. But this summer mineral compression is getting the big ol' nerf bat.

In sovereign space, all your stuff can be lost within the space of a few days. In hisec, you can function without undocking and have no threat of losing anything ever.

Only the edge case, exploration, is clearly more profitable in nulsec than in hisec.

Doing any of these requires far more investment in nulsec than in hisec. You need jump freighters, POSes, stations, sov, and cyno alts to name a few things above and beyond the simple cost of materials and couriers that you have in hisec.

We won't even talk about the risks and effort require in w-space.

Now tell me again how much better nulsec industry is compared to hisec.

a very small minority of people in 0.0 care about industry because industry is impractical in 0.0 so those people get bored and leave

are you going to dispute that people receiving cancer treatment often die, cancer treatment kills people stop doing it

In no place here did I mention reality, I was talking in game terms. As stated I believe that each area should have it's own niche to promote travel between them in one way or another. Don't like the people who live in hisec who make moey from industry? Do it better than them then, beat them in market PvP rather than just buff nullsec for an advantage for no reason other than because it is nullsec.



Indeed I was comparing different means of generating isk, again with my point being that each region should in fact have a unique way of making isk that is better than the other regions. If it is so hard to make isk in nullsec compared to hisec how do the large alliances produce enough to afford so many titans? Let alone throw so many away in one battle...



So most would rather do S&I in null with their S&I alt? Why? Convenience? This would then be giving a higher return on less effort.

I will clarify my point in case I drifted over the last few posts. I am happy that S&I is better in hisec and that resource generation and reward is higher in null (with losec lay somewhere between). I do not see and still am to be convinced that S&I *needs* to be better in null for the improvement of the game. This would lead to less movement of people and materials, stagnating trade and homogenizing the player base into a few nullsec alliances. Hisec would effectively become an oversized training ground and those who do not have the time required to dedicate to a nullsec lifestyle would be excluded from the game to all intents and purposes.

No, and that's not what I implied at all. Read and try to understand again.