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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1501 - 2014-04-22 17:23:18 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
No, I know this is impossible because the dev's are ignoring this thread, and the null sec cartel propaganda team will fill in all the talking points on behalf of the poor overworked dev's, but I would love for a dev, or dev's, to explain what fallout they expect with these changes, short term and long term.

I assume these changes were not made just purely for the vindictive pleasure of wrecking high sec and low sec manufacturing, nor designed solely to enhance the wallets of those that control null sec station taxes. I assume these changes are being made to increase the subscription rate.

So all you dev's, who I am sure reading all the constructive feedback that phantom requested in the very first post, perhaps one of you can enlighten us on how you see the subscription rate going up with these changes?


Did I hear filling in of talking points?

I haven't commented much in this thread because I feel like only a handful of posters even understand it to this point. So I will break it all down into a few areas. Obviously a lot more happens but they are details in the greater framework of the below.

Some industry (big invention/T2, large ships) will move to nullsec as the mechanics will allow them to be more profitable than highsec. This doesn't mean they won't be doable at all in highsec however.

Null will consolidate and increase density in economic hubs. Note, Goons had done this long ago but this will enable us to enact some plans done up years ago and further increase density.

Compression just changes form but remains an industry.

Highsec industry won't be as clustered around Jita on an unique pilot basis. However, those large operations will likely move in now as they can accept the margin compression due to scaling fees to eliminate the logistics.

If anything this results in a short term drop in subs but better long term viability for the game. I expect some % of people are going to rage about these patches.

I always wondered something about those who frame the argument as null vs highsec. Lets assume for the moment EVE was all highsec. Assuming we still played that sorta game do people not think we could do a complete takeover of say The Forge if we wanted? At some point you just have to realize you are an inferior player in a very deep game. There is nothing wrong with that. Enjoy what parts of the game you can manage to be good at.



Nice to see that all these changes benefit goons so much.
It is almost like you drew them up yourselves.

And yeah, waiting for the talking points of the dev's to see how much they match up with yours.
The bottom line: This is a massive nerf to high sec, a huge buff to null sec, and goons themselves state that the sub base will take a hit for the good of "long term viability".

CCP could just as easily wrecked every construct that supported the null sec cartels, had a bunch of cartel leaders quit in rage, and stated, "yes, we expect some short-term drop in subs, but overall, it improves the long-term viability of the game as now large groups of smaller organizations can try to carve out a small empire in null".

As for inferior players, well, no doubt goons have won Eve.
But to suggest that people choose morality over the goon way is hardly making one "inferior" over the other.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1502 - 2014-04-22 17:29:49 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
No, I know this is impossible because the dev's are ignoring this thread, and the null sec cartel propaganda team will fill in all the talking points on behalf of the poor overworked dev's, but I would love for a dev, or dev's, to explain what fallout they expect with these changes, short term and long term.

I assume these changes were not made just purely for the vindictive pleasure of wrecking high sec and low sec manufacturing, nor designed solely to enhance the wallets of those that control null sec station taxes. I assume these changes are being made to increase the subscription rate.

So all you dev's, who I am sure reading all the constructive feedback that phantom requested in the very first post, perhaps one of you can enlighten us on how you see the subscription rate going up with these changes?


Did I hear filling in of talking points?

I haven't commented much in this thread because I feel like only a handful of posters even understand it to this point. So I will break it all down into a few areas. Obviously a lot more happens but they are details in the greater framework of the below.

Some industry (big invention/T2, large ships) will move to nullsec as the mechanics will allow them to be more profitable than highsec. This doesn't mean they won't be doable at all in highsec however.

Null will consolidate and increase density in economic hubs. Note, Goons had done this long ago but this will enable us to enact some plans done up years ago and further increase density.

Compression just changes form but remains an industry.

Highsec industry won't be as clustered around Jita on an unique pilot basis. However, those large operations will likely move in now as they can accept the margin compression due to scaling fees to eliminate the logistics.

If anything this results in a short term drop in subs but better long term viability for the game. I expect some % of people are going to rage about these patches.

I always wondered something about those who frame the argument as null vs highsec. Lets assume for the moment EVE was all highsec. Assuming we still played that sorta game do people not think we could do a complete takeover of say The Forge if we wanted? At some point you just have to realize you are an inferior player in a very deep game. There is nothing wrong with that. Enjoy what parts of the game you can manage to be good at.



Nice to see that all these changes benefit goons so much.
It is almost like you drew them up yourselves.

And yeah, waiting for the talking points of the dev's to see how much they match up with yours.
The bottom line: This is a massive nerf to high sec, a huge buff to null sec, and goons themselves state that the sub base will take a hit for the good of "long term viability".

CCP could just as easily wrecked every construct that supported the null sec cartels, had a bunch of cartel leaders quit in rage, and stated, "yes, we expect some short-term drop in subs, but overall, it improves the long-term viability of the game as now large groups of smaller organizations can try to carve out a small empire in null".

As for inferior players, well, no doubt goons have won Eve.
But to suggest that people choose morality over the goon way is hardly making one "inferior" over the other.


Perhaps you missed the part where we have taken wave after wave of nerfs to our income. Long before we received any kind of buff. Yet even though we were losing trillions in a tech nerf we lobbied the hardest for it. I know this might be hard for you to understand but you are not just inferior because you aren't successful. You are inferior because you do not care what is right for the overall game but just what is right for your chosen playstyle.

The doublewhammy of shameful.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1503 - 2014-04-22 17:32:11 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

As for inferior players, well, no doubt goons have won Eve.
But to suggest that people choose morality over the goon way is hardly making one "inferior" over the other.

in eve cowardice and laziness are always the preconditions for whatever some pubbie is claiming is "morality" that day

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1504 - 2014-04-22 17:32:31 UTC
Dramaticus wrote:
The balance is that there is risk in null-sec while there is none in high-sec.


risk is not the be all and end all. It is simply something requiring effort to manage (or the acceptance of the losses with respect to the expected gains). Deep inside goon territory just how much risk is there in reality? You will be able to cover the gates into systems and have advance warning of intruders. No intruders? Then move your goods around with impunity.

Am I expected to believe that fuel for your control towers costs you a fortune? Surely with the highest output of PI resources and the ice fields you can lock down and mine out this shouldn't be a problem? When you have unlimited slots per station you will also have far fewer stations to defend if you choose so.

If I flew to goons null I would be at grave risk for not being blue to you, if I were blue? Suddenly a huge chunk of that risk is mitigated. I'm not complaining about this as you have carved out and controlled this space, but to plead poverty based on risk vs reward? If it was so hard there how do you control so much space? How do you afford it?

The risk vs reward idea doesn't fly in this case. Reducing the effort required to make even more isk in null is simply absurd and I very much hope that doesn't happen (and that is *all* of null, not an anti-goons statement).
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1505 - 2014-04-22 17:34:08 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dramaticus wrote:
The balance is that there is risk in null-sec while there is none in high-sec.


risk is not the be all and end all. It is simply something requiring effort to manage (or the acceptance of the losses with respect to the expected gains). Deep inside goon territory just how much risk is there in reality? You will be able to cover the gates into systems and have advance warning of intruders. No intruders? Then move your goods around with impunity.


oh lookie here:

Weaselior wrote:
highsec should not be more profitable than null, it should have activities that are at a different place on the risk/reward/effort spectrum

afk mining, afk mission running, trade hub .01isking, all of these things are at a very different point on the risk/reward/effort spectrum and are more 'profitable' than many nullsec activities once you factor in effort (which highseccers never do)

every time you hear someone bleat "but people can gank me in highsec and its harder to gank you in null" they're always, always, always ignoring effort. once you factor in effort the argument evaporates like a fart in the wind.


Weaselior wrote:
in today's news, when you put in the years-long effort to secure and defend a region, pay upkeep, run defense fleets, and you're at the keyboard when you are mining you get ganked less than some idiot afk mining in a retriever with a thirty minute egg timer

when you work out the profit per effort-time, the idiot in the afk retriever has earned massively more for each second of effort he's put in

it is simply that highseccers refuse to do this math that causes bad posts

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1506 - 2014-04-22 17:37:47 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dramaticus wrote:
The balance is that there is risk in null-sec while there is none in high-sec.

Am I expected to believe that fuel for your control towers costs you a fortune? Surely with the highest output of PI resources and the ice fields you can lock down and mine out this shouldn't be a problem? When you have unlimited slots per station you will also have far fewer stations to defend if you choose so.

Our fuel costs the same as it costs everyone else, because we buy it in Jita. Furthermore, there aren't enough slots available in our empire to produce the amount of fuel that we need.

What, do you think we enslave our line members to provide raw materials for pos fuel? This is not a thing we do.

It is amusing, however, to have random, unaffiliated folks walk in and describe how things work in nullsec, and in particular, in our organization, when they've clearly never spent a day in either.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1507 - 2014-04-22 17:38:15 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

Am I expected to believe that fuel for your control towers costs you a fortune? Surely with the highest output of PI resources and the ice fields you can lock down and mine out this shouldn't be a problem? When you have unlimited slots per station you will also have far fewer stations to defend if you choose so.

i also can't pass up the opportunity to quote a highsec pubbie unironically arguing "the things i mine myself are free"

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1508 - 2014-04-22 18:50:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Corraidhin Farsaidh, you keep positing that someone is saying nulsec should be better at everything. Then going on how that isn't balanced compared to better at everything it can do hisec.

As it stands now, nulsec is absolute crap compared to hisec for everything except pvp, anom ratting, exploration, and building supers/titans. There is literally no reason to do anything else in nulsec.

Because of the risks and effort required, very little resource harvesting gets done. Moons because guess what? A mechanical requirement. Boosters? Another mechanical requirement. Hybrid Polymers? Another mechanical requirement. Want to build supers or titans? You must own sov because Dominion sov mechanics say you have to, despite common sense saying "Why do I have to plant a flag to build a ship?" Why can't I build in Antarctica if I want to?

I have lived in nulsec continuously for 5 years. I can promise you, very little of its available industrial capacity is ever being used. Factories lay abandoned and empty. Refineries are dormant and cold. No one wants to do those activities because the risk and effort far outweigh the rewards.

Is mining worth it in nulsec? Sure. ABCs and Dark Glitter litter nulsec. We could easily crush all demand in hisec for the reined products if we could safely harvest even a fraction of what nulsec could provide. But because of the risk, costs, and immense effort of moving it all from nulsec, it will never happen. 1000m3 per block of ice? WTF? Who would want to move all that?

Balance isn't about having item X in region A, item Y in region B, item Z in region C, and then saying "Let there be balance!" Its about effort+risk vs reward.

You want to throw PvE into the balance equation? Okay. Just look at the isk generated by running level 4 missions. It is competitive with PvE in nulsec and has far less risk. Where do you think all those blinged-out navy faction battleships come from?

But pirate faction battleships come from nulsec and are worth more! Yes they are. They are worth more not because they are only available from high-end exploration plexes and pirate NPC missions. But because the people that bring them in from nulsec take greater risks and put in more effort to get them. This is balance.

Hisec incursions are historically one of the biggest money-making PvE activities in Eve. They see far more activity than anything you get in losec or nulsec, despite the rewards being significantly higher.

What about carrier ratting? No, you can't do it in hisec. But those that do it in nul are taking greater risks. Every blops pilot in the game wants to hotdrop a ratting carrier. The carrier pilot's reward for the greater risk is greater income. Balance is maintained. You want lower risk, you get lower income. Hell, it isn't even any more effort than ratting in a T1 BS. Its a pure risk vs reward issue.

I suppose the hisec version of carrier ratting might be station trading. Ask around. What is the single most profitable action in Eve from a risk+effort vs reward standpoint? Many many players will say either level 4 missions in a T1 BS or station trading.

Hisec is great for everything that can be done there, and it is very low risk. Nulsec is much higher risk. So, yes, whatever you can do out in nulsec should generate a proportionately higher return on investment compared to hisec.

And now, you will have unlimited factory slots. Holy crap. UNLIMITED! The only thing you have to worry about is is it worth it to pay the fee in a congested system, put up a POS and pay a flat rate per hour, or go to a less crowded station? Oh, that's right! No more faction standings requirement! And look at how many factory slots you have!

In nulsec, we don't have that option. We can put one station in a system and we have to choose which type. Do we want a refinery, a factory, an office station, or a research station? We get to choose one and only one, and then we are stuck with it forever.

You want to compare balance? Tribal Band dropped 4 stations in Period Basis while we owned it. We paid for every TCU, IHUB, SBU, station upgrade, capital ship assembly array, jump bridge, cynosural field jammer, pirate detection array, and every other "advantage" that we had through hard work and effort, and we did it while we had every hostile entity From NPC Fountain, Delve, Stain, and Stainwagon in Paragon Soul breathing down our necks.

And to make it clear, there were a lot of us that really appreciated the effort our allies went through to get us that space. Hell, I even appreciate the pizza guys that came down from Delve to re-educate the brothers.

How much isk and effort did anyone in hisec have to spend to enjoy the perfect refineries with sub-par skills, level 4 missions, multiple stations per system with hundreds of manufacturing and research slots and dozens of offices in almost every system, gate guns, station guns, faction police, no bombs, no bubbles, and the ultimate mother-lode of all protection services, CONCORD?

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/The_Forge
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Period_Basis

Do those maps looked balanced to you?

If you want to live in hisec, fine. I can't stop you. But the next time you want to cry about how hisec is getting nerfed and how unbalanced the game is becoming towards nulsec, look at what you have, then look at what we have, and then ask yourself what have I done to deserve all this absolutely awesome space?

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1509 - 2014-04-22 18:51:53 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

Am I expected to believe that fuel for your control towers costs you a fortune? Surely with the highest output of PI resources and the ice fields you can lock down and mine out this shouldn't be a problem? When you have unlimited slots per station you will also have far fewer stations to defend if you choose so.

i also can't pass up the opportunity to quote a highsec pubbie unironically arguing "the things i mine myself are free"


Where did I say they were free? I said you can gather the materials from PI (i.e. make the effort to do so...not 'free'). Locking down an ice filed to mine it out? Takes effort to hold the system and effort to mine the field whilst killing the rats that show up. Again not 'free'

I raised the question as to why you don't produce them yourself. I make fuel blocks and know it isn't that difficult. If you have the goods to hand and the build slots available (which you may or may not have) then it is a simple process. After the summer changes you will have unlimited build slots. I would be very surprised if you didn't make the absolute best use of that change.

Also please explain the term 'pubbie' as if it is an insult I'd at least like to know exactly how it is supposed to be Big smile
Castles
Sovereign Power Company
#1510 - 2014-04-22 18:52:40 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

Am I expected to believe that fuel for your control towers costs you a fortune? Surely with the highest output of PI resources and the ice fields you can lock down and mine out this shouldn't be a problem? When you have unlimited slots per station you will also have far fewer stations to defend if you choose so.

i also can't pass up the opportunity to quote a highsec pubbie unironically arguing "the things i mine myself are free"


When he says that they might cost you a fortune, he is implying that you are paying a large percentage over the fair market value, presumably because you don't have enough local resources to draw from in order to keep up with demand.

Everything looks like a nail when you're a hammer. Think, Weaselior, before you post.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#1511 - 2014-04-22 19:02:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Soldarius wrote:
If you want to live in hisec, fine. I can't stop you. But the next time you want to cry about how hisec is getting nerfed and how unbalanced the game is becoming towards nulsec, look at what you have, then look at what we have, and then ask yourself what have I done to deserve all this absolutely awesome space?


On top of all that, I don't understand where the certainty comes from that high sec is even taking a nerf. A reconfiguration, sure, and those are painful, but the way it looks to settle out should work out pretty well, especially for new entrants. Something more diverse than "Jita or GTFO" could, in practice, constitute a buff to high sec--maybe not ISK-wise, but again in terms of accessibility to new and small-time industry players.

I think the apparent lack of any buff to null sec logistics pretty much guarantees that much of null sec's production will be for its own local consumption, and any exports will probably continue to land in Jita, leaving the rest of high sec to high sec producers. So, probably a net buff to traders, speculators and space truckers as well. With some null sec production leaving the Jita area, and with 425mm Railgun manufacturing going away, there should be reduced pressure on Jita-adjacent production facilities, which means lower surcharges.

More to the point, we're still 4 dev blogs away from knowing what the first set of changes to industry even are.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1512 - 2014-04-22 19:15:48 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Weaselior wrote:

i also can't pass up the opportunity to quote a highsec pubbie unironically arguing "the things i mine myself are free"


Where did I say they were free? I said you can gather the materials from PI (i.e. make the effort to do so...not 'free'). Locking down an ice filed to mine it out? Takes effort to hold the system and effort to mine the field whilst killing the rats that show up. Again not 'free'

I raised the question as to why you don't produce them yourself. I make fuel blocks and know it isn't that difficult. If you have the goods to hand and the build slots available (which you may or may not have) then it is a simple process. After the summer changes you will have unlimited build slots. I would be very surprised if you didn't make the absolute best use of that change.
Big smile

Where in this adorable vignette does the ice miner get paid? Where does the PI guy get paid? Those people don't mine for the benefit of the alliance alone -- they want money for their efforts, or they're not going to do it. Furthermore, anyone doing this is under no coercion to sell to the alliance even IF it is buying -- if our prices aren't competitive with Jita minus JF fees, it doesn't go to us.

If you think that any sane individual would agree to be held to any of those demands, you're part of a lengthy object lesson in why we have nullsec, and you don't.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1513 - 2014-04-22 19:28:02 UTC
For the record, there are 358 50% refineries in the Forge alone.

In all of nulsec, there are 487. They are all Conquerable Outposts or NPC stations, rather than Player-Built Stations. This does not include any 50% player built stations. But those are few and far between because guess what, with 40% refinery, level 4 specialty skills and a 1% implant, you could get perfect refine/reprocessing.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1514 - 2014-04-22 19:37:31 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh, you keep positing that someone is saying nulsec should be better at everything. Then going on how that isn't balanced.

As it stands now, nulsec is absolute crap for industry.

...

Is mining worth it in nulsec? Sure. ABCs and Dark Glitter litter nulsec. We could easily crush all demand in hisec for if we could safely harvest even a fraction of what nulsec could provide. But because of the risk, costs, and immense effort of moving it all from nulsec, it will never happen.

Balance isn't about having item X in region A and item Y in region B, and then saying "Let there be balance!" Its about effort/risk vs reward.

You want to throw PvE into the balance equation? Okay. Just look at the isk generated by running level 4 missions. It is competitive with PvE in nulsec and has far less risk. Where do you think all those blinged-out navy faction battleships come from?

What about carrier ratting? No, you can't do it in hisec. But those that do it in nul are taking greater risks. Every blops pilot in the game wants to hotdrop a ratting carrier. The carrier pilot's reward for the greater risk is greater income. Balance is maintained. You want lower risk, you get lower income. Hell, it isn't even any more effort than ratting in a T1 BS. Its a pure risk vs reward issue.

...

Hisec is great for everything that can be done there, and it is very low risk. Nulsec is much higher risk. So, yes, whatever you can do out in nulsec should generate a proportionately higher return on investment compared to hisec.

And now, you will have unlimited factory slots. Holy crap. UNLIMITED! The only thing you have to worry about is is it worth it to pay the fee in a congested system, put up a POS and pay a flat rate per hour, or go to a less crowded station? Oh, that's right! No more faction standings requirement! And look at how many factory slots you have!

In nulsec, we don't have that option. We can put one station in a system and we have to choose which type. Do we want a refinery, a factory, an office station, or a research station? We get to choose one and only one, and then we are stuck with it forever.

...

How much isk and effort did anyone in hisec have to spend to enjoy the perfect refineries with sub-par skills, level 4 missions, multiple stations per system with hundreds of manufacturing and research slots and dozens of offices in almost every system, gate guns, station guns, faction police, no bombs, no bubbles, and the ultimate mother-lode of all protection services, CONCORD?

...

If you want to live in hisec, fine. I can't stop you. But the next time you want to cry about how hisec is getting nerfed and how unbalanced the game is becoming towards nulsec, look at what you have, then look at what we have, and then ask yourself what have I done to deserve all this absolutely awesome space?


Thanks for the detailed reply which clarifies many things for me. I have already stated that if nulsec industry is not viable it should be made so and I have no issue with that. I have on many occasions posted against the ability to farm any kind of mission, it annoys me that people can do so and the eve survival can even exist. What is the point of a mission where you can go AFK?

The station issue of single type per system I didn't know about, I was under the impression that the moons within the system could provide whichever service was required by placing online refineries, labs, reactors, whatevers. That is an issue with station viability in null rather than an advantage that hisec has. It is my understanding that with the new POS S&I system the stations in every system will have the same capabilities and no slot limits upon them. This will benefit all systems equally.

In terms of refining I have no argument with the skill changes ( and I think it was probably 1 month to 6 weeks to get the skills for perfect refining plus about 2 months grinding standings). It made no sense for the refining skills to have little value above a certain level.

As for CONCORD they are a punishment service not a protection. If someone wants to kill you in hisec they just bring enough gank fit ship to do the required damage in the required time. Concord cannot stop them, only destroy them afterwards by which time it is too late for the target. If my understanding is incorrect here please do explain why.

I live in hisec because it suits me to do so for now. If my available time for the game drops then I will simply adapt my skills and activities to compensate. Most of my goods however come from regular jaunts to losec and I have no aversion to risk or effort. Missions bore me, station trading would bore me to tears. I am learning to carry out every career within Eve as and when the opportunity arises. I welcome the S&I changes as it gives me something new to learn and adapt to. I certainly don't cry about hisec being nerfed since I simply look for the opportunities that any change brings for me in my current position and make the best of it. Ultimately whether null has an S&I buff or not will not affect me as I will simply work around any changes.

I raised the question as to *why* null should be better for everything and this i still a valid question. I have not been swayed by the comments and responses here that this is a good thing for the game. Once someone moves to null sec and can enjoy every career there for greater reward why would they ever return to the other areas of space? They would have no need or reason. Hisec folks are already treated as second class citizens by many people. This is not a good way to persuade people to stay in the game after trial. I would much prefer there to be actual reasons to use each area of space for its particular advantage, and likewise there to be reasons for people to travel between the regions.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1515 - 2014-04-22 19:39:00 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
For the record, there are 358 50% refineries in the Forge alone.

In all of nulsec, there are 487. They are all Conquerable Outposts or NPC stations, rather than Player-Built Stations. This does not include any 50% player built stations. But those are few and far between because guess what, with 40% refinery, level 4 specialty skills and a 1% implant, you could get perfect refine/reprocessing.
Not that I'm against the changes being proposed, but what you said amounts to admitting you marginalized the value of 50% refining, which is in no way highsec's fault.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1516 - 2014-04-22 19:43:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Soldarius wrote:
How much isk and effort did anyone in hisec have to spend to enjoy the perfect refineries with sub-par skills, level 4 missions, multiple stations per system with hundreds of manufacturing and research slots and dozens of offices in almost every system, gate guns, station guns, faction police, no bombs, no bubbles, and the ultimate mother-lode of all protection services, CONCORD?


Then complain to CCP that they should have fixed that earlier. I never understood why they put such terrible stations into the game in the first place or at least have upgraded them long ago. CONCORD exists in 00 sec. But as it is player driven, you actually have to be in fleets to respond to threats.

You also compare the wrong regions. Instead of the least busy 00 region and the busiest region in the game you should have compared the either busiest regions of High sec and 00 sec (which is an entirely different region and would make The Forge look less extreme.Blink) or the least busy regions, where High sec and such 00 regions look very much alike.

Querns wrote:
Where in this adorable vignette does the ice miner get paid? Where does the PI guy get paid? Those people don't mine for the benefit of the alliance alone -- they want money for their efforts, or they're not going to do it. Furthermore, anyone doing this is under no coercion to sell to the alliance even IF it is buying -- if our prices aren't competitive with Jita minus JF fees, it doesn't go to us.

If you think that any sane individual would agree to be held to any of those demands, you're part of a lengthy object lesson in why we have nullsec, and you don't.


Sure, they want money, and you can give them money. Even Jita prices. And it would still be cheaper and less effort for you, since you don't have to ferry all the stuff from Jita to 00 sec - you only have to ferry it around in 00 sec with your JBs.

Soldarius wrote:

For the record, there are 358 50% refineries in the Forge alone.

In all of nulsec, there are 487. They are all Conquerable Outposts or NPC stations, rather than Player-Built Stations. This does not include any 50% player built stations. But those are few and far between because guess what, with 40% refinery, level 4 specialty skills and a 1% implant, you could get perfect refine/reprocessing.


Very interesting numbers. And now we level the game on the 00 sec numbers where player were and still are too lazy to build proper outposts? Or where players failed to demand better stations to make industry more worthwhile a long time ago? Roll

For the records: It is entirely the players fault that the 00 sec station landscape is what it is at the moment. But instead of fixing that, other areas where players actually cannot influence things (even though they are there plentiful) are changed. Very reasonable.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1517 - 2014-04-22 19:51:23 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

Querns wrote:
Where in this adorable vignette does the ice miner get paid? Where does the PI guy get paid? Those people don't mine for the benefit of the alliance alone -- they want money for their efforts, or they're not going to do it. Furthermore, anyone doing this is under no coercion to sell to the alliance even IF it is buying -- if our prices aren't competitive with Jita minus JF fees, it doesn't go to us.

If you think that any sane individual would agree to be held to any of those demands, you're part of a lengthy object lesson in why we have nullsec, and you don't.


Sure, they want money, and you can give them money. Even Jita prices. And it would still be cheaper and less effort for you, since you don't have to ferry all the stuff from Jita to 00 sec - you only have to ferry it around in 00 sec with your JBs.

If you think any appreciable bulk of goods goes through jump bridges in freighters, you're dreaming. Jump bridges are one-per-system now, which means those freighters have to take gates. All goods are moved to, from, and in between nullsec systems via Jump Freighter.

The funny thing about Jump Freighters is that they aren't more work to go to Jita than they are to go to a nullsec market hub. Given the choice between an anemic nullsec market hub and Jita, which would you choose?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1518 - 2014-04-22 20:05:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Querns wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:

Querns wrote:
Where in this adorable vignette does the ice miner get paid? Where does the PI guy get paid? Those people don't mine for the benefit of the alliance alone -- they want money for their efforts, or they're not going to do it. Furthermore, anyone doing this is under no coercion to sell to the alliance even IF it is buying -- if our prices aren't competitive with Jita minus JF fees, it doesn't go to us.

If you think that any sane individual would agree to be held to any of those demands, you're part of a lengthy object lesson in why we have nullsec, and you don't.


Sure, they want money, and you can give them money. Even Jita prices. And it would still be cheaper and less effort for you, since you don't have to ferry all the stuff from Jita to 00 sec - you only have to ferry it around in 00 sec with your JBs.

If you think any appreciable bulk of goods goes through jump bridges in freighters, you're dreaming. Jump bridges are one-per-system now, which means those freighters have to take gates. All goods are moved to, from, and in between nullsec systems via Jump Freighter.

The funny thing about Jump Freighters is that they aren't more work to go to Jita than they are to go to a nullsec market hub. Given the choice between an anemic nullsec market hub and Jita, which would you choose?


Right, you naturally use the JF. Unless you have set up a JB specifically for such a purpose, which is what I would do for a couple of systems to make mining this ice easier.

Unfortunately I would chose Jita as well. But why is the 00 market hub anemic to begin with? Is it really that easy to jump stuff from Jita to Tenal or Period Basis all the time?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1519 - 2014-04-22 20:10:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
Rivr Luzade wrote:

Very interesting numbers. And now we level the game on the 00 sec numbers where player were and still are too lazy to build proper outposts? Or where players failed to demand better stations to make industry more worthwhile a long time ago? Roll

the standard factory station in highsec is a 50 slot 50% refinery and there are like eight per system in most factory systems in highsec

that is literally impossible to build in nullsec (you can get 50 slots in a refinery OR 50% refines), and you are limited to one station per system

don't you ever get tired of being wrong all the time

edit: apparently not:

Rivr Luzade wrote:

Right, you naturally use the JF. Unless you have set up a JB specifically for such a purpose, which is what I would do for a couple of systems to make mining this ice easier.


you would never ever use the jump bridge and freighter instead of a jump freighter because it's slower and much more vulnerable

freighters do not go through jump bridges in nullsec except to get into jammed systems. the 'cant cut it in 0.0 crew' has proven why yet again

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1520 - 2014-04-22 20:17:59 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

Unfortunately I would chose Jita as well. But why is the 00 market hub anemic to begin with? Is it really that easy to jump stuff from Jita to Tenal or Period Basis all the time?

It has to do with the fact that a lot of materials are only available in certain regions. For example, you can't get most datacores in any one particular area of nullsec (and the kinds you do get are only for a sharply limited set of T2 items,) you can't get all moon minerals in any one particular area (r32s are regional,) ice is regional, drug gas is regional (this is a crappy example but it has still been relevant to the maybe dozen people in 10 years of eve who have ever made drugs.)

All these goods have to be imported. Since you have to import the materials, it makes a whole lot more sense to just import the finished goods, which have been assembled by highsec, with its superior logistics, availability, facilities, and lower risk, and the ability to outsource the taking of the very risk you do endure via properly collateralized public courier contract.

Giving nullsec a slight leg up against the norm gives us a chance to try and claw out some of that for ourselves, rather than be beholden to highsec for everything.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.