These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Wildly Inappropriate.
#1141 - 2014-04-17 12:54:45 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
What? Did someone just say scaling taxes apply to POS owners? Really? My manufacturing and research at the POS I'm paying 450m a month in fuel to run... is going to be taxed?

Or do you mean starting a job on the station floor, not at the actual POS?


Scaling costs will apply to all, just think of it as overhead on machine refits/repairs/scaling up plant lines etc.


No. I'm thinking of it as a tax on manufacturing, additional to the existing cost I already incur running a POS and one I cannot escape even with several highly skilled characters. It implies I have to run around all over the place to find the lowest (temporary) manufacturing cost. That might be different to the place where I can get the lowest research cost. All of my stuff gets spread around. I can no longer have a "base of operations" if I care about my costs (which I do). I have to manage it all and it's going to be a gigantic pain in the butt.



But it isnt tax, thats what you are wrong about.

A factory can churn out 50 jobs per day at cost X what is now. But said factory in teh future can churn out 100 jobs at cost Y, but no one said it cant do just 50 jobs at cost X still. Just when you get over the amount it is ment for scaling cost should come into play.

No point in getting all angry and huffpuff abou tthese changes when we only have half of the info. Look forward to that next devblog where they'll go more in detail about that scaling cost and how it works exactly.

if 50 jobs turn into cost Y and not stay at cost X, then sure go ahead and be all angry lol
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1142 - 2014-04-17 12:55:27 UTC
nope, the next 4blogs should cover this

I'm thinking the number of blogs is a good indication of the extent of the S&I overhaul...can only be a good thing but I'm sure there will be ...niggles...
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#1143 - 2014-04-17 13:04:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Victoria Sin
Firvain wrote:


But it isnt tax, thats what you are wrong about.

A factory can churn out 50 jobs per day at cost X what is now. But said factory in teh future can churn out 100 jobs at cost Y, but no one said it cant do just 50 jobs at cost X still. Just when you get over the amount it is ment for scaling cost should come into play.

No point in getting all angry and huffpuff abou tthese changes when we only have half of the info. Look forward to that next devblog where they'll go more in detail about that scaling cost and how it works exactly.

if 50 jobs turn into cost Y and not stay at cost X, then sure go ahead and be all angry lol


I don't see anywhere that the costs of manufacturing are going to be the same. I see them scaling with how popular the factory is. But what isn't clear to me is whether a POS assembly array is classed as a "factory" for the purposes of said costs. If it is, how is the cost to be calculated? I'm going to be taxed for running jobs in my own factory?

At the moment my POS factory slot cost is zero. ZERO. When I factor in the fuel cost of my POS, it's actually quite expensive (450m a month to run). So is it now going to be cheaper to ditch the POS and run R&D and manufacture jobs from a station? If so it seems to me that CCP have made the use of POSs entirely pointless.

I don't know what your other point is. At the moment I churn out 50 jobs a day at cost 50X. After the expansion, I will still churn out 50 jobs a day but my cost will be 50X +Y(t), where Y is some scaling function and t is the current job number. I have no idea and I don't think CCP do either.
Banko Mato
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1144 - 2014-04-17 13:11:11 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Firvain wrote:


But it isnt tax, thats what you are wrong about.

A factory can churn out 50 jobs per day at cost X what is now. But said factory in teh future can churn out 100 jobs at cost Y, but no one said it cant do just 50 jobs at cost X still. Just when you get over the amount it is ment for scaling cost should come into play.

No point in getting all angry and huffpuff abou tthese changes when we only have half of the info. Look forward to that next devblog where they'll go more in detail about that scaling cost and how it works exactly.

if 50 jobs turn into cost Y and not stay at cost X, then sure go ahead and be all angry lol


I don't see anywhere that the costs of manufacturing are going to be the same. I see them scaling with how popular the factory is. But what isn't clear to me is whether a POS assembly array is classed as a "factory" for the purposes of said costs. If it is, how is the cost to be calculated? I'm going to be taxed for running jobs in my own factory? At the moment my POS factory slot cost is zero. ZERO. When I factor in the fuel cost of my POS, it's actually quite expensive (450m a month to run).

I don't know what your other point is. At the moment I churn out 50 jobs a day at cost 50X. After the expansion, I will still churn out 50 jobs a day but my cost will be 50X + tY, where Y is some scaling function and t is the current job number. I have no idea and I don't think CCP do either.


Except that your additional cost of tY might well turn out to be zero (or near zero) for the same number of jobs your POS can currently handle. With the benefit, that you can install even more jobs, but then your tY will indeed increase. Right now however all this is speculation until CCP releases exact numbers ;)
Kenhi sama
Project Stealth Squad
The Initiative.
#1145 - 2014-04-17 13:12:41 UTC
So will the new system be capabl of remembering setting, like if you want to setup 10 jobs with the same values?
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#1146 - 2014-04-17 13:18:43 UTC
Banko Mato wrote:

Except that your additional cost of tY might well turn out to be zero (or near zero) for the same number of jobs your POS can currently handle. With the benefit, that you can install even more jobs, but then your tY will indeed increase. Right now however all this is speculation until CCP releases exact numbers ;)


As a business person, I don't like uncertainty. Whether or not my current or planned run is profitable depends to a large extent upon certain costs I know I'm going to incur. For me the cost is crystallised when I actually buy the moon goo or components or minerals. Everything else is fixed. But now it seems CCP are going to introduce a variable cost factor I have no way of predicting. It's really quite obnoxious.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1147 - 2014-04-17 13:32:59 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Banko Mato wrote:

Except that your additional cost of tY might well turn out to be zero (or near zero) for the same number of jobs your POS can currently handle. With the benefit, that you can install even more jobs, but then your tY will indeed increase. Right now however all this is speculation until CCP releases exact numbers ;)


As a business person, I don't like uncertainty. Whether or not my current or planned run is profitable depends to a large extent upon certain costs I know I'm going to incur. For me the cost is crystallised when I actually buy the moon goo or components or minerals. Everything else is fixed. But now it seems CCP are going to introduce a variable cost factor I have no way of predicting. It's really quite obnoxious.

Well, we know that the exact cost will be shown before you run the job. What we don't know if if you can put together "hypothetical" manufacturing runs to see what the cost would be.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#1148 - 2014-04-17 13:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I do hope they are looking at a full mission overhaul now for maybe the winter release since standings grind is no longer as necessary (though it still gives access to higher mission levels, better refining etc)


Standings are still required for reprocessing & refining except if you want to use an array at a POS. Sounds like more 'dumbing down' of the game doesn't it. Sad

Standings are also still required to work for higher level mission agents.

Standings are still required to reduce taxes incurred from trading on the market.

Have I missed any other current reasons to have high standings ? Smile

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#1149 - 2014-04-17 13:40:53 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

Well, we know that the exact cost will be shown before you run the job. What we don't know if if you can put together "hypothetical" manufacturing runs to see what the cost would be.


Of course they aren't going to do that, no. It's developer effort. I will be able to see what the current cost is for a manufacturing slot but what am I supposed to do if it's now too high? Move my stuff - move my POS, what? How often am I supposed to do this? I have hundreds of containers with BPCs in, are CCP going to make it easier to move my business from one system to the next? Are they going to make it safer? Of course they aren't.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1150 - 2014-04-17 13:48:21 UTC
"So player corporations will now have the choice between the safety of NPC stations or the efficiency of Starbases to operate. The core goal is to motivate player entities to actually defend their Starbases if attacked or be reactive enough to take the blueprints out before they go into reinforced mode.

We are aware of the significance of this change and do not expect very expensive blueprints (Battleship and above) to be risked in such a manner, but we do feel it to be a good trade-off for smaller blueprints."

This tells me that CCP is totally clueless.

Industrial corps do everything they can to avoid war, therefore, they have NO PvPers.

There is nothing you can do to get 10 guys in exhumers to go defend their POS against any corp that is a real risk to a POS.


New EVE industry... cranking out BPCs from you high sec large, super hardened POS.


This is going to be a HUGE pain. huge, huge, huge pain


And it is NOT going to have the stated effect.


You can not force us to play the way you want us to play, because you can not force us to play.


PvPers need to be content to go PvP against other players that want to PvP. You are never going to get industrialists to play in a way that makes them easy kills for PvPers.


Oh, it would be easy to kill industrialists if CCP would just change..... WRONG! Industrialists will just change what they do, so that they remain safe.

We're not suddenly going to jump into PvP ships and become easy kills for skilled PvPers. Never going to happen!
Arana Mirelin
Te'Rava Industries
#1151 - 2014-04-17 13:48:32 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Well, we know that the exact cost will be shown before you run the job. What we don't know if if you can put together "hypothetical" manufacturing runs to see what the cost would be.


Of course they aren't going to do that, no. It's developer effort. I will be able to see what the current cost is for a manufacturing slot but what am I supposed to do if it's now too high? Move my stuff - move my POS, what? How often am I supposed to do this? I have hundreds of containers with BPCs in, are CCP going to make it easier to move my business from one system to the next? Are they going to make it safer? Of course they aren't.







Your best bet for any kind of answer is to wait for the dev blog about pricing. My quick read, at least inferred from what was said, is that I expect the price to be based on the activity at the location in question. So public slots are going to be at the whim of everyone else there as well. For POS arrays, it is probably more controllable for a solo or small team industrialist.

Again, all of this is speculation only for now, and the changes are not coming tomorrow.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1152 - 2014-04-17 13:57:00 UTC
Will the cost changes be such that a 0% increase in cost is equal to the current amount of production slots being used and after all the slots are filled only then will you get the 1-14% increase in cost? Will future stations' 0% costs be equal to current capacity and only after that will the cost increases occur, or is overall future "capacity" being lowered with increased costs?

For example, if a current station currently has 10 slots and only 7 are being used, then the future station would have a 0% cost increase. After 10 jobs are installed in the future summer station, the 11th job would then get a 1-14% cost increase?

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#1153 - 2014-04-17 13:57:48 UTC
I presume NPC tax costs to do jobs at NPC stations are going to have to be increased a lot from their current levels to rival the costs of POS fuel production otherwise there may be no point in running a research POS in high sec.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#1154 - 2014-04-17 13:58:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Victoria Sin
LHA Tarawa wrote:

PvPers need to be content to go PvP against other players that want to PvP. You are never going to get industrialists to play in a way that makes them easy kills for PvPers.


CCP could even things up by allowing us industrialists to fit tracking devices to the items we make and/or to booby-trap them so they randomly explode, taking out the player with them. Otherwise, Indy PvP is Indy PvP, same but different. We PvP on price, efficiency, cost, market manipulation.
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Wildly Inappropriate.
#1155 - 2014-04-17 14:04:04 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Banko Mato wrote:

Except that your additional cost of tY might well turn out to be zero (or near zero) for the same number of jobs your POS can currently handle. With the benefit, that you can install even more jobs, but then your tY will indeed increase. Right now however all this is speculation until CCP releases exact numbers ;)


As a business person, I don't like uncertainty. Whether or not my current or planned run is profitable depends to a large extent upon certain costs I know I'm going to incur. For me the cost is crystallised when I actually buy the moon goo or components or minerals. Everything else is fixed. But now it seems CCP are going to introduce a variable cost factor I have no way of predicting. It's really quite obnoxious.

Well, we know that the exact cost will be shown before you run the job. What we don't know if if you can put together "hypothetical" manufacturing runs to see what the cost would be.


you can, they said so in a post
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#1156 - 2014-04-17 14:08:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Victoria Sin
Firvain wrote:

you can, they said so in a post


For a single run, yes. But the costs will scale if you put on, say, 20 or 40 runs at the same time, as one often does. Is that cost predictable?

Another problem I have: If slots are being removed, are they being retained at POS's? If not, how is that going to work?

So much confusion. But from what I've read so far it's going to make the whole business intensely annoying to manage.
Zeera Tomb-Raider
Vega Farscape
#1157 - 2014-04-17 14:36:37 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Well, we know that the exact cost will be shown before you run the job. What we don't know if if you can put together "hypothetical" manufacturing runs to see what the cost would be.


Of course they aren't going to do that, no. It's developer effort. I will be able to see what the current cost is for a manufacturing slot but what am I supposed to do if it's now too high? Move my stuff - move my POS, what? How often am I supposed to do this? I have hundreds of containers with BPCs in, are CCP going to make it easier to move my business from one system to the next? Are they going to make it safer? Of course they aren't.





Agre thers will be to mutch work being a industrialist in hi sec nowe,mowe your production matrials to different stations and have to get finnished products from different stations aarrrg Time=monny,,,,lower copy time sounds good but marked will change faster and more items made dont give anyon a better price margin on trade,And 1 more thing ccp want to make eve marked look like real life marked,but i dont have a stock of skilled workers doing calculation or hauling may stuff.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1158 - 2014-04-17 14:43:44 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I do hope they are looking at a full mission overhaul now for maybe the winter release since standings grind is no longer as necessary (though it still gives access to higher mission levels, better refining etc)


Standings are still required for reprocessing & refining except if you want to use an array at a POS. Sounds like more 'dumbing down' of the game doesn't it. Sad

Standings are also still required to work for higher level mission agents.

Standings are still required to reduce taxes incurred from trading on the market.

Have I missed any other current reasons to have high standings ? Smile


Research agent level, although that needs addressing during the S&I changes...you get nowhere near enough datacores foor it to be useful to invention, I proposed a while back that RP can be used directly in an invention job at a preferential rate, though you could still create a datacore and sell it if you chose.
Zeera Tomb-Raider
Vega Farscape
#1159 - 2014-04-17 14:45:05 UTC
Firvain wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
What? Did someone just say scaling taxes apply to POS owners? Really? My manufacturing and research at the POS I'm paying 450m a month in fuel to run... is going to be taxed?

Or do you mean starting a job on the station floor, not at the actual POS?


Scaling costs will apply to all, just think of it as overhead on machine refits/repairs/scaling up plant lines etc.


No. I'm thinking of it as a tax on manufacturing, additional to the existing cost I already incur running a POS and one I cannot escape even with several highly skilled characters. It implies I have to run around all over the place to find the lowest (temporary) manufacturing cost. That might be different to the place where I can get the lowest research cost. All of my stuff gets spread around. I can no longer have a "base of operations" if I care about my costs (which I do). I have to manage it all and it's going to be a gigantic pain in the butt.



But it isnt tax, thats what you are wrong about.

A factory can churn out 50 jobs per day at cost X what is now. But said factory in teh future can churn out 100 jobs at cost Y, but no one said it cant do just 50 jobs at cost X still. Just when you get over the amount it is ment for scaling cost should come into play.

No point in getting all angry and huffpuff abou tthese changes when we only have half of the info. Look forward to that next devblog where they'll go more in detail about that scaling cost and how it works exactly.

if 50 jobs turn into cost Y and not stay at cost X, then sure go ahead and be all angry lol

so way making this changes at all if non hawe to mowe lol
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1160 - 2014-04-17 14:53:15 UTC
I'd also suggest we wait and see what the whole 'team' concept is too...could be good and mitigate lots of the effort..could be horrid :D