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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1241 - 2011-12-01 06:27:25 UTC
I find it interesting that people talk about the range of other weapons platforms and expect this to be the main issue. Blasters in particular have always been a close range weapon that is supposed to do excessive damage at close quarters. No one has ever mentioned an issue when your target is within range of your guns but rather before.

The issue with blasters and armor tanked gallente and caldari ships in general (Rokh, Megathron, etc) has always been GETTING to your target and locking them down. Once their in your clutches it's pretty much good night Irene.

I find the solution rather simple. Give a web bonus in range not strength. Make it to where a Megathron can web out to 25 km and at least give it a chance to close in and lock the target down. The reason why the Vindicator is so popular is really because of the ability to lock it's target down with increased web strength.

If you truly want blaster platforms to be viable in a kite fest such as todays combat situations always are, you need to give the slower, brawlers an ability to actually catch something foolish enough to get within it's clutches. You wanna warp disrupt a Megathron? You risk being webbed.

it would certainly make for an interesting element to cat and mouse if you ask me.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1242 - 2011-12-01 10:22:05 UTC
25km? Seriously? And how much will it make when bonused and pimped out? 50? I don't see how this is realistic.

As for the risk of being webbed by gallente boats, it's already there. Just don't be stupid and don't stand still - pilot your damn ship instead.

I don't deny some stuff needs tweaking (shield rigs and extenders need to have speed penalties intead of foolish signature ones), but asking for such a long web is just way too much.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1243 - 2011-12-01 12:17:41 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
Iit is the range from 20 km to 30 which is the problem for blaster boats.
We need stopping power or range or just continue flying Canes and Lokis :p
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1244 - 2011-12-01 12:22:28 UTC
That's why I say shield overtanking should be penalized as much as armour overtanking - i.e. making your ship slower. In this case typical Cane losts some of its appeal.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1245 - 2011-12-01 12:51:16 UTC
First : I am not into making anyone equal or making shield/armor the same. But I want everybody to have a competitive balanced game that does't give billionaires a huge advantage in active shield tanking or passive armor buffer. Especially the first because acitve shield tanking is way underpowered compared to buffer tanks unless you actually invest billions in implants AND faction modules. Spread the love, diversify the game play...

Second : After having clearly asked against anything that brought shield and armor tanks closer together (even if this is not what my proposal would do) you just asked for shield tanking to get the same penalties as armor tanking? Your logic is flawed compared to why you don't like any other suggestions...

Pinky
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1246 - 2011-12-01 13:17:36 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
That's why I say shield overtanking should be penalized as much as armour overtanking - i.e. making your ship slower. In this case typical Cane losts some of its appeal.

yeah make caldari even more slower --> they will start move backward ^^ hopefully faster than matar :D
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1247 - 2011-12-01 13:55:49 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
That's why I say shield overtanking should be penalized as much as armour overtanking - i.e. making your ship slower. In this case typical Cane losts some of its appeal.

yeah make caldari even more slower --> they will start move backward ^^ hopefully faster than matar :D

Even slower? Have you flown amarr actually? Roll

There's nothing wrong with making buffer-tanked Caldari and Matari slower. Matari will still be ahead of any other race while Caldari will stand on pair with Amarr in this regard. Gallente - somewhere in between Matari and the other two.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1248 - 2011-12-01 13:59:16 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
That's why I say shield overtanking should be penalized as much as armour overtanking - i.e. making your ship slower. In this case typical Cane losts some of its appeal.

yeah make caldari even more slower --> they will start move backward ^^ hopefully faster than matar :D

Even slower? Have you flown amarr actually? Roll

There's nothing wrong with making buffer-tanked Caldari and Matari slower. Matari will still be ahead of any other race while Caldari will stand on pair with Amarr in this regard. Gallente - somewhere in between Matari and the other two.

yeah in speed maybe but not in ehp or signature... dumb amarr
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1249 - 2011-12-01 14:40:01 UTC
Tara Read wrote:
I find it interesting that people talk about the range of other weapons platforms and expect this to be the main issue. Blasters in particular have always been a close range weapon that is supposed to do excessive damage at close quarters. No one has ever mentioned an issue when your target is within range of your guns but rather before.

The issue with blasters and armor tanked gallente and caldari ships in general (Rokh, Megathron, etc) has always been GETTING to your target and locking them down. Once their in your clutches it's pretty much good night Irene.

I find the solution rather simple. Give a web bonus in range not strength. Make it to where a Megathron can web out to 25 km and at least give it a chance to close in and lock the target down. The reason why the Vindicator is so popular is really because of the ability to lock it's target down with increased web strength.

If you truly want blaster platforms to be viable in a kite fest such as todays combat situations always are, you need to give the slower, brawlers an ability to actually catch something foolish enough to get within it's clutches. You wanna warp disrupt a Megathron? You risk being webbed.

it would certainly make for an interesting element to cat and mouse if you ask me.



It would, but I think it's rather silly to suggest hybrids get their value from yet another module. There are two problems with using webs to bandaid hybrids:

1) realistically, this only fixes blasters and does nothing for rails
2) if I decided to trick out my ship in mid slots, foregoing a web and just using a scram/disrupt, I'm right back to underperforming hybrids.

I cannot stand using other modules to bandaid poor modules. It doesn't do anything but mask the underlying problems. No, hybrids need to be fixed.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1250 - 2011-12-01 15:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Magosian
I still think this thread is too cluttered with suggestions that just mask the underlying issues.

PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION CCP! THIS IS THE UNDERLYING PROBLEM WITH HYBRIDS!

Lets say we gave blasters an effective range that allowed TEs to boost it into the 20-25km range, much like autocannons and scorched pulses.

Let's also say we gave railguns respectable alpha damage and increased its dps to match either artillery or beams.

This is, by the way, pretty much what the playerbase has been asking for in this thread, as best as I can interpret.

Given these changes were made live, would I use hybrids? HELL NO!

Why not?

-projectiles are cap-free
-lasers have instant ammo reload
-ships with projectile bonuses provide the pilot with the best speed in the game; this is a passive defensive mechanic
-ships with laser bonuses provide the pilot with the best EHP in the game; this is a passive defensive mechanic

If you are not willing to give Gallente/Caldari hybrid ships a native, passive, defensive mechanic, IN ADDITION TO GIVING HYBRID TURRETS MATCHING DPS AND RANGE STATS TO MAKE THEM EQUALLY EFFECTIVE IN COMBAT, then you WILL NOT entice pilots to choose hybrids.

The only thing I learned from the hybrid changes in Crucible is CCP doesn't understand the underlying problem. Well, here it is.

Make hybrids fun. Make them USEFUL. Make sure blasterboat pilots don't have to play the "all-in" game by committing to a fight without any option to run away. Make sure railguns are WORTH the trouble of costing cap, plagued with reload timers, stuck on weak ships, have fixed damage type. Hybrids still have all cons and no pros. You have yet to address this in Crucible.
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1251 - 2011-12-01 16:54:26 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
25km? Seriously? And how much will it make when bonused and pimped out? 50? I don't see how this is realistic..


I'm saying this would wind up being the max range with say battleship 5. The bonus would only apply to certain ships like the Megathron and the Bruitx.

Faction webs such as the True Sansha give a bonus to distance not strength. You forget you still have to reach your target even if it's webbed out to 30km in a battleship at only 60% strength.

The only ship I see this being overpowered would be the Vindicator so I wouldn't have the bonus applied to it since it already has a bonus to web strength.

Fon Revedhort wrote:
As for the risk of being webbed by gallente boats, it's already there. Just don't be stupid and don't stand still - pilot your damn ship instead..


Wrong. The risk is within 10,000 km which we all know no Minny pilot dares get into especially with the proper gyro and tracking enhancer fitting. Being able to kite your target out to 30km + is the new norm. Orbit, shoot, repeat. That's all it is.

The web range bonus would at least give some Gallente hulls half a chance to reach their target.

Fon Revedhort wrote:
I don't deny some stuff needs tweaking (shield rigs and extenders need to have speed penalties intead of foolish signature ones), but asking for such a long web is just way too much.


Oh please.... We all know it's always been closing range and keeping it with gallente is the problem 95% of the time. Your web can't reach your target to slow their kiting and you fit null which hits out to 28km but they still orbit out to 30km +. What happens? You die plain and simple.
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1252 - 2011-12-01 17:02:36 UTC




Magosian wrote:
It would, but I think it's rather silly to suggest hybrids get their value from yet another module. There are two problems with using webs to bandaid hybrids:


Value? Blasters have ALWAYS been a short range weapon and always should be. The second your change that you've taken away their niche which is close close face melting dps.

Magosian wrote:
1) realistically, this only fixes blasters and does nothing for rails


We're focusing on Blasters. Please try to keep up okay?

Magosian wrote:
2) if I decided to trick out my ship in mid slots, foregoing a web and just using a scram/disrupt, I'm right back to underperforming hybrids.


What are you talking about? The typical fitting for mids on a Megathron are an MWD, Scram, Web, Cap Injector. Nothing has changed here. And please explain to me how exactly giving a web range bonus to a Megathron hull gimps blasters?

Have you heard nothing of the discussion's over the past 3 months on hybrids. It's not only the guns themselves but the hulls in which they are applied to that need changing as well.

Magosian wrote:
I cannot stand using other modules to bandaid poor modules. It doesn't do anything but mask the underlying problems. No, hybrids need to be fixed.


Blasters are working as intended now with the patch update Magosian. A 3 mag stab mega with Void and Ogre's now pumps out 1406 dps with neutrons. The dps is now more than sufficient. Blasters recieved a tracking buff and fitting requirement reduction which is more than ample.

However it has always been applying these weapons to a hull that has hardly any chance of catching it's faster agile target that is the underlying issue.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1253 - 2011-12-01 17:18:47 UTC
Tara Read wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
25km? Seriously? And how much will it make when bonused and pimped out? 50? I don't see how this is realistic..


I'm saying this would wind up being the max range with say battleship 5. The bonus would only apply to certain ships like the Megathron and the Bruitx.


25 km with free tech2 modules? What I'm saying is: throw in some isk and gang-bonuses and you'll end up with insanity of 50 km webs.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1254 - 2011-12-01 17:24:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tara Read
[quote=Magosian]I still think this thread is too cluttered with suggestions that just mask the underlying issues.

PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION CCP! THIS IS THE UNDERLYING PROBLEM WITH HYBRIDS!

Lets say we gave blasters an effective range that allowed TEs to boost it into the 20-25km range, much like autocannons and scorched pulses.

God no.... Just.. no... Once you do that you've effectively made blasters nothing more than an over glorified auto cannon. How many of these tracking enhancers would you see on a Megathron? How much would it's dps be gimped? And would the tracking be sufficient at 30 km? I doubt it.

Once you gave blasters range you just showed how ridiculous your ideas are like 95% of the people who whine about blasters being bad. You want a 30 km kite fest like Minny and that just doesn't happen nor should it with Blasters. Ever.

[quote=MagosianLet's also say we gave railguns respectable alpha damage and increased its dps to match either artillery or beams.

Buffing Rails alpha is needed. I agree.

[quote=MagosianThis is, by the way, pretty much what the playerbase has been asking for in this thread, as best as I can interpret.

Playerbase? I don't want a range increase nor ever will with blasters. If I did, I'd just fly with perfectly skilled auto cannons like I can now. You fail to see that given their role, blasters are perfectly fine now. It is CLOSING range and keeping it with a fat armor plated ship that just doesn't cut it anymore unless you have designated tackle and a perfect warp in.



[quote=MagosianGiven these changes were made live, would I use hybrids? HELL NO!

Why not?

projectiles are cap-free
-lasers have instant ammo reload
-ships with projectile bonuses provide the pilot with the best speed in the game; this is a passive defensive mechanic
-ships with laser bonuses provide the pilot with the best EHP in the game; [u][b]this is a passive defensive mechanic

Lasers are also the most cap draining and cannot keep up a barrage for long. That's one major drawback. And your describing ships that have defined roles which are fine. Gallente have face melting dps and tracking with the Megathron. Minny have agility, and Amarr have awesome tanks.

[quote=MagosianIf you are not willing to give Gallente/Caldari hybrid ships a native, passive, defensive mechanic, IN ADDITION TO GIVING HYBRID TURRETS MATCHING DPS AND RANGE STATS TO MAKE THEM EQUALLY EFFECTIVE IN COMBAT, then you WILL NOT entice pilots to choose hybrids.

Passive defense mechanic? What are you talking about? See you want homogenous weapons platforms which will NEVER happen nor should it. God.. stop arguing you want Blasters to do 30 km range and KEEP their awesome dps... Just stop..


The only thing I learned from the hybrid changes in Crucible is CCP doesn't understand the underlying problem. Well, here it is.


Make hybrids fun. Make them USEFUL. Make sure blasterboat pilots don't have to play the "all-in" game by committing to a fight without any option to run away. Make sure railguns are WORTH the trouble of costing cap, plagued with reload timers, stuck on weak ships, have fixed damage type. Hybrids still have all cons and no pros. You have yet to address this in Crucible.

Oh jesus... All I hear is : I fly minny I wanna fly gallente and make it as EZ mode as minny so give me my cake and eat it too! Let me ask you have you ever flown Gallente?

Have you ever flown a armor plated Megathron, had to close range, manage cap, keep optimal and actually pilot the ship instead of just hitting orbit at 30km and drooling? I hardly think you have.

Gallente especially with Blasters have a totally different feel and tactic to doing what they do. Their very situational yet excel every time they are used for that purpose.


Okay NOW I know your a moron. "Make sure blasterboat pilots don't have to play the "all-in" game by committing to a fight without any option to run away."

Yep you have no clue how to fly blaster boats nor the attitude behind flying them. You commit, you KNOW your stuck, you go in with risk and hopefully come out battered but alive. THAT is the risk you take for doing face melting dps. It's been that way since beta and I hope to god never changes.

Just go back to flying Minny. You sound like a top notch pilot for them anyways...
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1255 - 2011-12-01 17:35:13 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Tara Read wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
25km? Seriously? And how much will it make when bonused and pimped out? 50? I don't see how this is realistic..


I'm saying this would wind up being the max range with say battleship 5. The bonus would only apply to certain ships like the Megathron and the Bruitx.


25 km with free tech2 modules? What I'm saying is: throw in some isk and gang-bonuses and you'll end up with insanity of 50 km webs.


Insanity? You still have to reach your target in an armor plated battleship that does 900 M/S genius from 50 KM away.... Need I spell out the total stupidity in trying to use that approach? The bonus to webs would be range only NOT strength. And like I mentioned before the Vindicator would not get one since it already has a strength bonus.

You also forget the best web out there does 60% strength. Not 90% like the old days. That's still a bit of wiggle room say for a nano'd Hurricane to get out before the battleship can close the extra 15Km to scram them. It's all situational, yet the web range bonus would give certain hulls half a chance to catch their target.

Now what if you fit dual webs? Well have a stacking penalty or only have the bonus apply to one module in the role bonus so that doesn't happen.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1256 - 2011-12-01 17:42:27 UTC
Tara Read wrote:
Value? Blasters have ALWAYS been a short range weapon and always should be. The second your change that you've taken away their niche which is close close face melting dps.


Consider for a moment the philosophy you just stated is "correct" DOES NOT ACTUALLY WORK! And it never will work without highest speed and removal of atrocious speed penalties due to armor rigs and armor tanking. Conversely, you could address this with range.

Tara Read wrote:
We're focusing on Blasters. Please try to keep up okay?

Maybe you missed the title of the thread. How about you try and keep up.

Tara Read wrote:
What are you talking about? The typical fitting for mids on a Megathron are an MWD, Scram, Web, Cap Injector. Nothing has changed here. And please explain to me how exactly giving a web range bonus to a Megathron hull gimps blasters?

Have you heard nothing of the discussion's over the past 3 months on hybrids. It's not only the guns themselves but the hulls in which they are applied to that need changing as well.

I like how you omitted the part where I plainly say the ships need changing too:

"If you are not willing to give Gallente/Caldari hybrid ships a native, passive, defensive mechanic, IN ADDITION TO GIVING HYBRID TURRETS MATCHING DPS AND RANGE STATS TO MAKE THEM EQUALLY EFFECTIVE IN COMBAT, then you WILL NOT entice pilots to choose hybrids."

By focusing solely on the mega and using it as an example with a web, you're doing exactly what I said, which is using another module to mask the shortcomings and poor base stats of hybrids in general. This does nothing for a shield brut or a ferox, both of which SHOULD operate in effectiveness like a shield buffered and TE'd cane, i.e. without a web. Even with Crucible hybrid "buffs" they still do not. THAT is a far greater issue than some DPS value in print.

Tara Read wrote:
Blasters are working as intended now with the patch update Magosian. A 3 mag stab mega with Void and Ogre's now pumps out 1406 dps with neutrons. The dps is now more than sufficient. Blasters recieved a tracking buff and fitting requirement reduction which is more than ample.

However it has always been applying these weapons to a hull that has hardly any chance of catching it's faster agile target that is the underlying issue.


EFT-warrioring DPS numbers is EXACTLY why nothing is getting fixed! Just because you get monstrous numbers on paper doesn't mean it works in the field. It's the entire problem with this thread, it's how hybrids went overlooked for so long, and it's exactly why Crucible changes to hybrids were implemented and it is EXACTLY why hybrid popularity will NOT increase. Hybrids don't work, and they will continue to be a monumentally distant 4th choice in PVP. If that isn't clear to you by now, then I don't know what else I can say to you.

In addition to all of this, CCP Ytterbium pretty much said there is no way CCP will ever change the speeds of hybrid platforms to outmatch Minmatar ones. As long as they're unwilling to change this, the true philosophy of blasters will never be realized. Might as well try to change the philsophy itself.
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1257 - 2011-12-01 17:47:27 UTC
Magosian wrote:
I still think this thread is too cluttered with suggestions that just mask the underlying issues.

PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION CCP! THIS IS THE UNDERLYING PROBLEM WITH HYBRIDS!

Lets say we gave blasters an effective range that allowed TEs to boost it into the 20-25km range, much like autocannons and scorched pulses.

Let's also say we gave railguns respectable alpha damage and increased its dps to match either artillery or beams.

This is, by the way, pretty much what the playerbase has been asking for in this thread, as best as I can interpret.

Given these changes were made live, would I use hybrids? HELL NO!

Why not?

-projectiles are cap-free
-lasers have instant ammo reload
-ships with projectile bonuses provide the pilot with the best speed in the game; this is a passive defensive mechanic
-ships with laser bonuses provide the pilot with the best EHP in the game; this is a passive defensive mechanic

If you are not willing to give Gallente/Caldari hybrid ships a native, passive, defensive mechanic, IN ADDITION TO GIVING HYBRID TURRETS MATCHING DPS AND RANGE STATS TO MAKE THEM EQUALLY EFFECTIVE IN COMBAT, then you WILL NOT entice pilots to choose hybrids.

The only thing I learned from the hybrid changes in Crucible is CCP doesn't understand the underlying problem. Well, here it is.

Make hybrids fun. Make them USEFUL. Make sure blasterboat pilots don't have to play the "all-in" game by committing to a fight without any option to run away. Make sure railguns are WORTH the trouble of costing cap, plagued with reload timers, stuck on weak ships, have fixed damage type. Hybrids still have all cons and no pros. You have yet to address this in Crucible.



I fully agree to this post.
However, you have forgett to mention that projectiles also have less CPU and PG needs.
So EVEN if you would have the same range with blasters to apply the same theoretical damage in real life situations projectiles still would have:
- flexibility to choose damage type by ammo
- less CPU usage
- less CPU and PG usage for medium weapons
- cap free usage

Now if I think about it a bit then the main advantage of projectiles is that they don't need CAP. Leaving more energy for active modules and being able to fire them with empty cap is very usefull.

I'm sure CCP knows the real issues, they just don't know how to fix it properly without making hybrids the next FOTM.
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1258 - 2011-12-01 17:49:46 UTC
i'm more concerned that they are afraid of touching

a) ship balance because of sub number. a lot of people like what they are used to
b) touching the core ui which is terrible out of the same reason.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1259 - 2011-12-01 17:57:23 UTC
Hamox wrote:
I'm sure CCP knows the real issues, they just don't know how to fix it properly without making hybrids the next FOTM.


I do.

Any med/large ship with a hybrid turret bonus gets their base scan resolution and base sensor strength doubled.

In addition to making hybrid ships more popular, this would also:
-resurrect the pitiful Eos
-resurrect the Gallente employment of Information Warfare (and Caldari to an extent)
-take away some of that OP mojo from the Falcon
-put Gallente back into the drone-domination throne as they will be able to commands drones faster and kill them quickest.

Fixed.
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1260 - 2011-12-01 17:59:46 UTC
quote=Magosian Consider for a moment the philosophy you just stated is "correct" DOES NOT ACTUALLY WORK! And it never will work without highest speed and removal of atrocious speed penalties due to armor rigs and armor tanking. Conversely, you could address this with range.

NO you don't. You DON"T change the roles blasters have. Stop arguing trying to make blasters the next fotm auto cannon. Gallente already have an agility buff, their talking about reducing rig penalties to make them MORE agile. What more do you freaking want?


quote=Magosian Maybe you missed the title of the thread. How about you try and keep up.

How cute. Do you always drool when you try to argue for homogenous weapons platforms?



quote=Magosian I like how you omitted the part where I plainly say the ships need changing too:

"If you are not willing to give Gallente/Caldari hybrid ships a native, passive, defensive mechanic, IN ADDITION TO GIVING HYBRID TURRETS MATCHING DPS AND RANGE STATS TO MAKE THEM EQUALLY EFFECTIVE IN COMBAT, then you WILL NOT entice pilots to choose hybrids."

Entice... jesus... You want 1406 dps at 30 km. Are you freaking kidding me? Just stop...

quote=Magosian By focusing solely on the mega and using it as an example with a web, you're doing exactly what I said, which is using another module to mask the shortcomings and poor base stats of hybrids in general. This does nothing for a shield brut or a ferox, both of which SHOULD operate in effectiveness like a shield buffered and TE'd cane, i.e. without a web. Even with Crucible hybrid "buffs" they still do not. THAT is a far greater issue than some DPS value in print.

Sigh..... It's like arguing with a wall.... Blasters have ALWAYS had short range. You say blasters have a shortcoming when their the strongest they've EVER been.... If you don't like the platform DON"T use it! You've made it perfectly clear in your earlier post you don't want to be committed to a fight so just fly whinematar or caldari and gtfo! Your argument has NO value when your arguing for making blasters homogenous to other platforms period. Blasters where never intended to be what you want!


quote=Magosian EFT-warrioring DPS numbers is EXACTLY why nothing is getting fixed! Just because you get monstrous numbers on paper doesn't mean it works in the field. It's the entire problem with this thread, it's how hybrids went overlooked for so long, and it's exactly why Crucible changes to hybrids were implemented and it is EXACTLY why hybrid popularity will NOT increase. Hybrids don't work, and they will continue to be a monumentally distant 4th choice in PVP. If that isn't clear to you by now, then I don't know what else I can say to you.

Maybe your 4th choice. I fly Gallente blaster boats and always have pre patch. I understand their niche, where their good at, how to be effective and assess certain situations. Your trying to argue hybrids don't work when they do! The issue like I said is with closing range TO your target... You keep avoiding this fact.

You don't want to have to burn to your target, you want to hit the orbit button at 30km with a rack of neutrons, drool and melt people with over 1200 dps with a typical two mag stab Megathron setup. Just stop...

quote=Magosian In addition to all of this, CCP Ytterbium pretty much said there is no way CCP will ever change the speeds of hybrid platforms to outmatch Minmatar ones. As long as they're unwilling to change this, the true philosophy of blasters will never be realized. Might as well try to change the philsophy itself.

Well gee golly genius LOOK at what they did! They gave Gallente a 5% agility bonus didn't they? Minny have always been the fast, agile ships. Your trying to morph blaster boats into an even more powerful variant that would be game breaking in every single way.