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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Cruisers

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Tarmaniel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#221 - 2014-04-07 21:47:56 UTC
No EFT for this yet, but lets see what I can come up with for the Gila in about 15 minutes:

4x LML II,
MWD, web, CN scram, XLASB, LSE II, Invuln II
3x DDA II, IFFA
Overclocking unit II, EM and Therm shield rigs

Yeah, it fits. 750-800 DPS if you heat the launchers, perfectly applied to 50km on anything bigger than an interceptor, 40k EHP, 710 DPS omnitank. T2 drones have about 15k EHP, Augmented drones 25k.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#222 - 2014-04-07 21:49:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
1. Phantasm:
Although I'm still adjusting to the weirdness of the AB thing, I can see how that will be useful for sig tanking in pvp, so I'll let it slide. Other than that, I am EXTREMELY pleased at the new slot allocation, I mean...it's everything that I've been dreaming of and more. I am ecstatic that it got buffed an extra slot in the end. This plus the extra dps is going to be absolutely fantastic. I am putting aside my misgivings since the slot reallocation went so well with this.

2. Ashimmu:
I think it got the best buff out of all of these and I'll tell you why: The big buff to cap and having 4 mids means that if you just fit for nos and go with a fleet armor buffer setup, you can double web it and negate the loss of web velocity. This is HUGE. It means the ashimmu not only has the weapon range to engage its enemy past 20km, but the double web setup means that you've basically locked them in place nearly as effectively as before, except now with range to grab people who try to kite, and then dictate range at your leisure. This is exactly what I was imagining as the initial intent with the blood raider rebalance, and I see it being applied perfectly here. Good job, Rise.

3. Gila:
I'm still sort of scratching my head over this one. While I'm pleased that the Gila is no longer stupidly OP with big drones, I can see issues with it being vulnerable against frigates, although that could be mitigated somewhat with mounting rapid launchers. Aside from that, I see it being unnaturally effective in shield fleets as it will be far and away the best ship at high-end long-range damage projection in the entire faction cruiser line, navy vexor included. Now, I can only hope that a moa remodel comes along with this so I can fly the Gila without throwing up over the model...

4. Vigilant:
Since it looks like it's overall just a slight nerf, I guess I'm ok with it. Vigi is extremely powerful, but it is also far and away the most expensive pirate faction boat. It's as much a status symbol as it is a powerful vessel in its own right, so leaving it as is bonus-wise was a good decision. That being said, the pg nerf was a little severe, and further limits its usefulness in relation to the deimos. Perhaps swapping the range bonus for something armor-related my go over well, since people just go up-close and personal with the web/blaster combo anyway.

5. Cynabal:
Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the cynabal, of which I am sorely disappointed with. What needed to happen here with the rebalance was moving into a single damage bonus, and replacing the minmatar cruiser bonus with tracking speed, diverging it from the vagabond and other minmatar ships in general. It would have been a nice continuation of the line with the dramiel, and could have been translated into the machariel. Please take this into consideration and make a new pass on it. The fitting nerfs as fine as long as this is the result in the end. You said yourself earlier that you were hoping to differentiate more between the angel cartel ships and the vagabond and other minmatar cruisers; please make this happen.

EDIT: Forgot that nos range doesn't extend out. TBH I'd rather see them do something to extend the nos/neut range. Doubling up the nos/neut range would be good, but I'm not sure how they'd do that without getting rid of the web bonus or dropping neut effectiveness or something.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#223 - 2014-04-07 21:51:58 UTC
Wow! Infinite vampire... that's pretty cool! Phantasm with wheels! These are really cool changes... kinda makes me want to change careers to try them out. I like it.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#224 - 2014-04-07 21:55:25 UTC
I predict the very first BL doctrine for the new phantasm fleets will be coined: FUNGASM
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#225 - 2014-04-07 21:55:32 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
So under AB power the Phantasm will go approximately 1km/s without any nanos, links, boosters, implants, etc... I wonder how fast it'll go with a 100mn AB....


"Sir we have a Phantasm on short! Closing in at...dear god, it's blowing past our frigate tackle line! WHAT IS THIS EV-" *transmission cuts short as phantasm slices through destroyer with its big frontal blade, and bumps the command carrier 50km in the other direction while red-shifting into the distance*
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#226 - 2014-04-07 22:01:47 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
3. I'm still sort of scratching my head over this one. While I'm pleased that the Gila is no longer stupidly OP with big drones, I can see issues with it being vulnerable against frigates, although that could be mitigated somewhat with mounting rapid launchers. Aside from that, I see it being unnaturally effective in shield fleets as it will be far and away the best ship at high-end long-range damage projection in the entire faction cruiser line, navy vexor included. Now, I can only hope that a moa remodel comes along with this so I can fly the Gila without throwing up over the model...

Uh...what? Did you miss the part where the Gila's drone bonus is only to medium drones? Those are hardly a "long range" weapon system.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#227 - 2014-04-07 22:02:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Callisto Helix wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
GILA

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)


More damage type specific missile bonuses make me sad Sad

Would it really break the game to give missile ships a straight damage bonus instead of just 1 (most often kinetic)? Isn't choosing your damage type supposed to be one of the few advantages of missiles?


No. EVE's lore and background already damaged and watered down enough, destroying the damage patterns of the Empires is not acceptable and would only deteriorate the situation more.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#228 - 2014-04-07 22:04:47 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
So under AB power the Phantasm will go approximately 1km/s without any nanos, links, boosters, implants, etc... I wonder how fast it'll go with a 100mn AB....


"Sir we have a Phantasm on short! Closing in at...dear god, it's blowing past our frigate tackle line! WHAT IS THIS EV-" *transmission cuts short as phantasm slices through destroyer with its big frontal blade, and bumps the command carrier 50km in the other direction while red-shifting into the distance*

Because its blade will be the only thing it will be able to hit the enemy with when travelling with a 100mn AB.

What drugs are you people smoking to think that a 100mm AB is a good idea on a laser ship....
Jamir Von Lietuva
Nameless Minions
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#229 - 2014-04-07 22:09:05 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
So under AB power the Phantasm will go approximately 1km/s without any nanos, links, boosters, implants, etc... I wonder how fast it'll go with a 100mn AB....


"Sir we have a Phantasm on short! Closing in at...dear god, it's blowing past our frigate tackle line! WHAT IS THIS EV-" *transmission cuts short as phantasm slices through destroyer with its big frontal blade, and bumps the command carrier 50km in the other direction while red-shifting into the distance*

Because its blade will be the only thing it will be able to hit the enemy with when travelling with a 100mn AB.

What drugs are you people smoking to think that a 100mm AB is a good idea on a laser ship....


why not? you burn away, inties approach, you blap
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#230 - 2014-04-07 22:11:34 UTC
so the cyna won't be able too fit a neut after this pg nerf ...

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#231 - 2014-04-07 22:12:26 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
Hi Rise/Fozzie. I feel like the Cynabal overlaps far too much with the current Vagabond which currently is better in a lot of ways over the Cynabal and is generally superior. The Cynabal only offers better agility and a slightly better drone bay for all-around poorer performance. The extra mid does add some options but the vagabonds T2 resistances give a better performance than a 3rd tank items does from the Cynabal and the vagabonds shield boost bonus makes it the superior brawler. The vagabond has far better cap stability, t2 resists which help a lot for local/remote reps, better targeting stats and a powerful local rep bonus.

The cynabal only has a slight fitting advantage over the Vagabond if the Vagabond and Cynabal are both fitting 425mm Autocannons, otherwise, it's inferior. And that slight grid advantage doesn't allow you to offset the disadvantages.

I think the Cynabal needs to find a new niche;


very much so ...
a stronger emphasis on projectile damage and projection over the vaga would make sense .. nerf armour tank in exchange


Think rolling damage bonuses into one, and then giving it a tracking bonus might work?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#232 - 2014-04-07 22:14:07 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
Hi Rise/Fozzie. I feel like the Cynabal overlaps far too much with the current Vagabond which currently is better in a lot of ways over the Cynabal and is generally superior. The Cynabal only offers better agility and a slightly better drone bay for all-around poorer performance. The extra mid does add some options but the vagabonds T2 resistances give a better performance than a 3rd tank items does from the Cynabal and the vagabonds shield boost bonus makes it the superior brawler. The vagabond has far better cap stability, t2 resists which help a lot for local/remote reps, better targeting stats and a powerful local rep bonus.

The cynabal only has a slight fitting advantage over the Vagabond if the Vagabond and Cynabal are both fitting 425mm Autocannons, otherwise, it's inferior. And that slight grid advantage doesn't allow you to offset the disadvantages.

I think the Cynabal needs to find a new niche;


very much so ...
a stronger emphasis on projectile damage and projection over the vaga would make sense .. nerf armour tank in exchange


Think rolling damage bonuses into one, and then giving it a tracking bonus might work?


tracking and falloff bonus sounds too powerful too me

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#233 - 2014-04-07 22:16:35 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I'll get together with the other balance guys and talk about the Cynabal asap and get back to you all. We talked initially about the overlap between Angel and Minmatar and decided to try and make it work without making large changes. All three Angel ships are very popular (relative to other pirate faction ships) and generally regarded as 'fun' as far as I know, so risking negative impact with a bigger change didn't seem worthwhile.

I'll make sure we take another look though.


Rolling into a single damage bonus and giving it basically the same stats as the dram with tracking speed would be the perfect route to go from a logic and consistancy standpoint. You would not only be continuing the same bonus line as the dram initially, but it would add a unique flavor to it, especially if it gets carried over into the mach. You'd have the advantages of both the regular stabber and stabber navy rolled into one, and wouldn't step on the stabber navy's superiority with tracking speed if you go with the same 7.5% bonus.

It would be neat, clean, simple, and nobody would have any good reason to complain. :)
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#234 - 2014-04-07 22:17:48 UTC
Tarmaniel wrote:
Gila with HAMs clears 1000 DPS easily, isn't that a little ridiculous? That's with 6 mids and a resist bonus. A max-gank Deimos with Void can't even hit that kind of DPS.


But Dinsdale and the rest of the tinfoil brigade say it is being nerfed.
Surely they can't be wrong?

Anyway nice work CCP with the changes. I am building up stockpiles of some of these ships already.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#235 - 2014-04-07 22:29:22 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Quote:
As a Rattlesnake pilot, I'm really worried what you're going to do to it.

RIP Rattlesnake.


Rattler will likely retain role as a sentry boat, but I admit that I am displeased with how the missiles were bonused. I think that in the end a good rattler balance will focus around extra dps, which the current ones are doing well. They just need to have an omni damage for their missiles.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#236 - 2014-04-07 22:30:39 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
I'll get together with the other balance guys and talk about the Cynabal asap and get back to you all. We talked initially about the overlap between Angel and Minmatar and decided to try and make it work without making large changes. All three Angel ships are very popular (relative to other pirate faction ships) and generally regarded as 'fun' as far as I know, so risking negative impact with a bigger change didn't seem worthwhile.

I'll make sure we take another look though.


Rolling into a single damage bonus and giving it basically the same stats as the dram with tracking speed would be the perfect route to go from a logic and consistancy standpoint. You would not only be continuing the same bonus line as the dram initially, but it would add a unique flavor to it, especially if it gets carried over into the mach. You'd have the advantages of both the regular stabber and stabber navy rolled into one, and wouldn't step on the stabber navy's superiority with tracking speed if you go with the same 7.5% bonus.

It would be neat, clean, simple, and nobody would have any good reason to complain. :)


well really it seems odd that the dramiel has the tracking bonus aswell as a falloff bonus like the wolf.. both bonuses combined are a little OP really..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#237 - 2014-04-07 22:31:50 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Quote:
As a Rattlesnake pilot, I'm really worried what you're going to do to it.

RIP Rattlesnake.


Rattler will likely retain role as a sentry boat, but I admit that I am displeased with how the missiles were bonused. I think that in the end a good rattler balance will focus around extra dps, which the current ones are doing well. They just need to have an omni damage for their missiles.


the rattlesnake won't have a sentry bonus and a heavy bonus .. it will be heavies only along with its missile damage bonus

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#238 - 2014-04-07 22:34:01 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
phantasm could definitely do with a full set of lights too deal with frigs and it will need a neut so .. more pg and cap is needed really ... reduce the sig radius a little more would be good so it doesn't end up at 200 sig with extenders... maybe exchange some armour ... they are meant too be shield tanked anyway..

They aren't going to do that. The whole point seems to be that the ship is mismatched. That is why it appears powerful on paper, because you are going to have to contend with all of the contradictions in its fittings, stats, and bonuses.

For instance it appears like it is meant to go super fast, yet it cannot track when it does. And it appears as though it is meant to be shield tanked, although its sig rockets when it is countering the speed benefit. It appears as though it could be armour tanked, yet the base shield is substantially higher.

I think I can see what CCP Rise is doing, as this seems his style. It is kind of interesting, but the concept seems to be purposefully messy, and in practice it will be a lot weaker than it appears on paper.


It CAN track, that's what it has the tracking speed bonus. You are also forgetting the fact that with 2 extra lows, the standard fit for shield will be 2 TEs, 2 Heat sinks, and a dmg control. This negates your imagined tracking issues with it entirely.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#239 - 2014-04-07 22:35:56 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
the rattlesnake won't have a sentry bonus and a heavy bonus .. it will be heavies only along with its missile damage bonus
Not saying it won't happen, but how do you know it will? Sentries are the same band as heavies which removes the issue of the band limits which are necessary for balancing the current line of bonuses.
Iorga Eeta
Hekatonkheires Industries
#240 - 2014-04-07 22:39:36 UTC
Aglais wrote:

Please explain to me why a ship whose role includes drone damage requires a bonus to ewar drones. You have ten seconds.


Because it would be a unique modifier and it would only apply to medium ewar drones like the rest of the cruiser's drone bonuses. Are there any other ships in the game that give a bonus to ewar and combat utility drones? Besides ECM drones, do the ewar and combat utility drones ever get used? I think the TP drones get used sometimes. Stacking effects really make the other drones worthless. And here, you have a ship that could actually use those type of drones effectively without the usual stack penalties.