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Dev Blog: Giving Drones an Assist

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#581 - 2014-04-03 04:02:19 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
They'll also be up to 25% faster now.

I mean really, there's no way your fighter-bomber survivability didn't go up this way. And with less of them chances are you'll have less of them within the bomb explosion area. There's just the tradeoff of them doing somewhat less damage, which you can easily fix by fitting drone damage amplifiers and refitting to tank when you need it.

"But what about the small guys", he cries. The small guys have so few supers they can't refit in space off each other when they cyno in, so you're really just nerfing them. Right?
I'm kind of wondering though just how much two extra low slots for tank actually helps these small guys when their supers get caught.
Also to mitigate this problem we do have the mobile depot, although it comes with restrictions that limit its refitting abilities much more than having more supers does.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#582 - 2014-04-03 04:33:52 UTC
guys, my previously do-it-all ship now has to choose between tank and gank, please revert the change

it's not like they can refit in combat and have the buffer to survive or anything
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#583 - 2014-04-03 04:35:35 UTC
also my drones are vulnerable to death even after being handed a greater than 100% increase in EHP, this is unacceptable
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#584 - 2014-04-03 04:51:10 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Sorry Fozzie this change sucks for anybody grinding structures, I'm 100% not 'doing it wrong', you're nerfing the supers DPS output and forcing them to tank less so putting them in more danger while increasing the weapon system risk because CCP refuses to do anything about ISBoxer since its feeding them subs, which amounts to every fight haviing 40+ bombers being ran by 6 guys (totally ok though right, i mean any kind of botting that feeds subs to our little icelandic company can't be all bad right?).

So try not to tell me I'm doing it wrong when you seem to have zero understanding of the current 0.0 meta.

Stop adjusting the things for how you think the game will be played and adjust it based on how its actually being played.

People are actually using ISboxer to death, and you are actually making the supercarriers more vulnerable to it. I guess the end result is supposed to be everybody grinding structures in bombers because you're seriously limiting the options on what people are willing to deal with as far as structure grinding goes.

Why can't you guys get that SOV sucks to deal with, you used to be players, how hard is it to just not screw with the things that allow us to limp through this terrible set of game mechanics without making it worse?

heaven forbid you need to run a small antisupport wing to fend off bombers

hint: bombers need to come within 30km of whatever they are bombing

45km

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Bitney BIOS
Fuxi Legion
Fraternity.
#585 - 2014-04-03 05:17:42 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
They'll also be up to 25% faster now.



"But what about the small guys", he cries. The small guys have so few supers they can't refit in space off each other when they cyno in, so you're really just nerfing them. Right?
I'm kind of wondering though just how much two extra low slots for tank actually helps these small guys when their supers get caught.
Also to mitigate this problem we do have the mobile depot, although it comes with restrictions that limit its refitting abilities much more than having more supers does.



We're one of those small alliances, and those lows make a huge ******* difference.
These changes comes in as a pretty big nerf for alot of us.

1. either sacrifice alot of our survivability
2. sacrifice a stupid high % of your stopping power, when nuking a hostile capital, thus increaing the chance of losing a super.

Either way, its a loss for us.
We dont have the numbers, so we have to rely on speed and dps to kill capitals.

Or stop using supers, and go back to dreds.


\Doc
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#586 - 2014-04-03 05:19:19 UTC
MAJOR PROBLEM DETECTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fighters have a Signature Resolution of 125m !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That is Cruiser sized! That means Carriers with tracking mods will be able to PERFECTLY hit cruisers with fighters.

This needs to be adjusted before this change goes live. Bump the Signature Resolution up to the level of Sentry Drones, 400m.

That will make them fully effective vs Battleships but less so as ships scale down down in sized.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#587 - 2014-04-03 05:23:59 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
MAJOR PROBLEM DETECTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fighters have a Signature Resolution of 125m !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That is Cruiser sized! That means Carriers with tracking mods will be able to PERFECTLY hit cruisers with fighters.

This needs to be adjusted before this change goes live. Bump the Signature Resolution up to the level of Sentry Drones, 400m.

That will make them fully effective vs Battleships but less so as ships scale down down in sized.

woah there chief you are running dangerously close to exhausting your exclamation point quota for the month

you can call attention to things without using 98 exclamation marks
Doc Banshee
Quam Singulari
#588 - 2014-04-03 05:24:51 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
MAJOR PROBLEM DETECTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fighters have a Signature Resolution of 125m !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That is Cruiser sized! That means Carriers with tracking mods will be able to PERFECTLY hit cruisers with fighters.

This needs to be adjusted before this change goes live. Bump the Signature Resolution up to the level of Sentry Drones, 400m.

That will make them fully effective vs Battleships but less so as ships scale down down in sized.



Yep, because fighters are so incredibly scary with the ****** drone AI thats currently being used.

Oh wait.

Fighters are useless, and have been for years, except for pve - and the odd drop on a gnosis or ratting raven in 0.0
Ragnen Delent
13.
#589 - 2014-04-03 06:05:22 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
MAJOR PROBLEM DETECTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fighters have a Signature Resolution of 125m !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That is Cruiser sized! That means Carriers with tracking mods will be able to PERFECTLY hit cruisers with fighters.

This needs to be adjusted before this change goes live. Bump the Signature Resolution up to the level of Sentry Drones, 400m.

That will make them fully effective vs Battleships but less so as ships scale down down in sized.


You do know that they have a signature resolution of 125m currently, right? Their tracking isn't changing, and their base speed is so poor that they will still struggle to even keep up with a cruiser that doesn't have a prop mod. They aren't a threat to cruisers currently and it is unlikely they will be one after this patch.
Midori Tsu
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#590 - 2014-04-03 07:36:05 UTC
I'm fine with FB damage getting nerfed, but i think having to use 2 DDAs to get the current damage seems a to much.

Would adjusting the FB damage from 1400 to 1600 be a fair compromise? With 1 DDA you still do less damage but its nearly the same.
Doc Banshee
Quam Singulari
#591 - 2014-04-03 07:43:16 UTC
Midori Tsu wrote:
I'm fine with FB damage getting nerfed, but i think having to use 2 DDAs to get the current damage seems a to much.

Would adjusting the FB damage from 1400 to 1600 be a fair compromise? With 1 DDA you still do less damage but its nearly the same.


If you mean 1 t2 DDA, for slightly less damage, or with a faction dda slightly better damage. Fine with me.
That still gives the small corps/alliances with supers some decent firepower, without losing to much.

Would help alot if the droprate on shadow bpcs were increased as well.

Those with lots of isk, can be loot pinatas, grab officer dda's and shadow bombers.
Get more dps, and on the other hand be a very juicy target.
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#592 - 2014-04-03 07:48:39 UTC
Ragnen Delent wrote:
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
MAJOR PROBLEM DETECTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fighters have a Signature Resolution of 125m !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That is Cruiser sized! That means Carriers with tracking mods will be able to PERFECTLY hit cruisers with fighters.

This needs to be adjusted before this change goes live. Bump the Signature Resolution up to the level of Sentry Drones, 400m.

That will make them fully effective vs Battleships but less so as ships scale down down in sized.


You do know that they have a signature resolution of 125m currently, right? Their tracking isn't changing, and their base speed is so poor that they will still struggle to even keep up with a cruiser that doesn't have a prop mod. They aren't a threat to cruisers currently and it is unlikely they will be one after this patch.


Quote:
we are expanding all universal drone bonuses from skills and modules to Fighters and Fighter Bombers.

Quote:
To compensate for these changes, the base damage of Fighters and Fighter Bombers is being reduced.


Thought it may not be perfectly apparent to the average bitternoob, Fighters are getting a COLOSSAL buff by way of support skills and modules. As stated in the dev blog, the only compensation for the changes is the base damage which will be reconciled by skills alone.

Skill bonuses:
25% max velocity
25% max hit points
25% optimal

Potential module bonuses:
Damage
Tracking
Optimal Range
MWD speed

If you check out the spreadsheet in the devblog you'll see that fighters are pretty damn fast. 2000-2500 m/s max velocity (mwd i assume) and 225-300 m/s cruise speed (not sure if the skill will affect cruise speed or just mwd). These are faster base MWD speed than the new heavy drone speed and just slightly slower base cruise speed. Also the base range on a Dragonfly is 5000+3500 so imagine with skills and modules.

When you add all the skills and Modules to together you end up with an amazing fighter buff.

When you then add on top of that a Signature Resolution of 125 meters, then you have the conditions for this to get out of hand fast.

Do you guys disagree with these points?
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#593 - 2014-04-03 07:49:12 UTC
Methonash Qorranto wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:

Given the cost of T2 sentries and the training needed to get to Sentry V to qualify, I can see the use of T2 sentries dropping off as more and more newer players look at it and decide to stick with T1. T2 probably are barely worth it under new rules unless you already have them trained.


Exactly - and if you take a detailed look at the developers' spreadsheet for the upcoming drone changes, you'll see that the faction sentries are even BETTER than their tech2 counterparts in most areas: they get double the shield/armor HP, slightly reduced structure HP, and 5% better tracking! They're almost universally superior, when other things [such as damage] are held equal between the two.

The only condition under which tech2 sentries will still outpace their faction counterparts is when considering damage bonuses from the racial drone specialization skills, which will add another 10%. So, is it worth it? ... Certainly not in the short-term, but in the long-term, it can be.

Hasikan Miallok wrote:

If I get the gist of the original blog what they wanted is new players to be able to train interfacing to IV and Sentry to IV and still be almost as effective as a fully skilled player. Currently taking those two skills from IV to V gives you something like a 50% total damage hike.


Yep - Drone Interfacing 5 gives a (2/1.8) modifier bonus, and Sentry Drone Interfacing 5 gives a (1.25/1.2) modifier bonus, plus the tech 2 (1.2) damage modifier bonus, so...

(2/1.8) * (1.25/1.2) * 1.2 = 10/9 * 5/4 = 50/36 = 1.3889

Thus, it is a 38.89% DPS increase to spend ~1.5-2 months to train both skills up to 5 - and it actually makes the skill point investment sound - yet now tech1 pilots and wealthier capsuleers (who're willing to fork over the ISK for faction sentries) instantly get near-maximum DPS projection levels.

This is part of a movement that is [not-so-subtly] wrecking the value of skill point investment--instead, we are bearing witness to instant-gratification DPS for level 1 sentry drone users.

So much for being a veteran!

Ugh.

indeed. right after i spend those 2 months on multiple toons training what seems like a sound, if not lengthy, skill que, it's basically made useless. i'm rich, i can spend tons of isk on faction drones, i didn't spend those plexes training up just to get ****** spc increase (you seriously want me to lvl up all 4 racial drones to spc 5 now?)
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#594 - 2014-04-03 07:50:03 UTC
Why are heavy drones as big as fighters, but much slower?

Both heavies and fighters would also need their orbit velocity, optimal and falloffs doubled.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#595 - 2014-04-03 07:54:47 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
Ragnen Delent wrote:
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
MAJOR PROBLEM DETECTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fighters have a Signature Resolution of 125m !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That is Cruiser sized! That means Carriers with tracking mods will be able to PERFECTLY hit cruisers with fighters.

This needs to be adjusted before this change goes live. Bump the Signature Resolution up to the level of Sentry Drones, 400m.

That will make them fully effective vs Battleships but less so as ships scale down down in sized.


You do know that they have a signature resolution of 125m currently, right? Their tracking isn't changing, and their base speed is so poor that they will still struggle to even keep up with a cruiser that doesn't have a prop mod. They aren't a threat to cruisers currently and it is unlikely they will be one after this patch.


Quote:
we are expanding all universal drone bonuses from skills and modules to Fighters and Fighter Bombers.

Quote:
To compensate for these changes, the base damage of Fighters and Fighter Bombers is being reduced.


Thought it may not be perfectly apparent to the average bitternoob, Fighters are getting a COLOSSAL buff by way of support skills and modules. As stated in the dev blog, the only compensation for the changes is the base damage which will be reconciled by skills alone.

Skill bonuses:
25% max velocity
25% max hit points
25% optimal

Potential module bonuses:
Damage
Tracking
Optimal Range
MWD speed

If you check out the spreadsheet in the devblog you'll see that fighters are pretty damn fast. 2000-2500 m/s max velocity (mwd i assume) and 225-300 m/s cruise speed (not sure if the skill will affect cruise speed or just mwd). These are faster base MWD speed than the new heavy drone speed and just slightly slower base cruise speed. Also the base range on a Dragonfly is 5000+3500 so imagine with skills and modules.

When you add all the skills and Modules to together you end up with an amazing fighter buff.

When you then add on top of that a Signature Resolution of 125 meters, then you have the conditions for this to get out of hand fast.

Do you guys disagree with these points?


Don't you think an unused weapon system needs a buff? Fighters haven't been used on TQ in years, this buff opens them up to at least experimenting with. They still lack the orbit velocity to make any damage at all, but if it's fixed we might actually see Thanatoses fielded in some situations.


Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#596 - 2014-04-03 08:10:47 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:

Don't you think an unused weapon system needs a buff? Fighters haven't been used on TQ in years, this buff opens them up to at least experimenting with. They still lack the orbit velocity to make any damage at all, but if it's fixed we might actually see Thanatoses fielded in some situations.


Yes, It needs a buff and is getting a buff and i'm glad.

However, because of it's current Signature Radius it has the potential to have much greater utility than necessary.

Think about it in this way. Heavy Drones and Fighters will have the same Signature Resolution and very similar stats across the board with the exception of damage and range. After the buff Fighters will not be able to utilize modules as well. This means that fighters will overshadow Heavy drones in pretty much all cases.

Is there a reason for Fighters to have a Sig Res of 125m? Does that help fighters apply damage to Battleships with 400m sig radius in anyway?

Is there any reason not to alter the Sig res of fighters to 350-400m?
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#597 - 2014-04-03 08:17:13 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

stuff...

pl ranting about isboxer.....like really?

it's not like pl is using it massively.....hint: PHEW
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#598 - 2014-04-03 08:20:46 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:

Don't you think an unused weapon system needs a buff? Fighters haven't been used on TQ in years, this buff opens them up to at least experimenting with. They still lack the orbit velocity to make any damage at all, but if it's fixed we might actually see Thanatoses fielded in some situations.


Yes, It needs a buff and is getting a buff and i'm glad.

However, because of it's current Signature Radius it has the potential to have much greater utility than necessary.

Think about it in this way. Heavy Drones and Fighters will have the same Signature Resolution and very similar stats across the board with the exception of damage and range. After the buff Fighters will not be able to utilize modules as well. This means that fighters will overshadow Heavy drones in pretty much all cases.

Is there a reason for Fighters to have a Sig Res of 125m? Does that help fighters apply damage to Battleships with 400m sig radius in anyway?

Is there any reason not to alter the Sig res of fighters to 350-400m?


Yep, that's why Heavy Drones need to be buffed more.

If Fighter sig res would be 400m, they wouldn't be able to hit anything, not even immobile battleships like they currently can.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#599 - 2014-04-03 08:46:37 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
If Fighter sig res would be 400m, they wouldn't be able to hit anything, not even immobile battleships like they currently can.

Sure they would. Right now, they hit about as well as medium blasters; with 400m sig res, they'd hit about as well as large blasters. Their main problem is that they orbit too close to their target.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#600 - 2014-04-03 08:54:25 UTC
So the TL;DR seems to be: If you are not a newbie, nothing really changes. Except that we may use and fight against more than two different kinds of drones now.

.