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Dev Blog: Giving Drones an Assist

First post First post
Author
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#541 - 2014-04-02 19:30:57 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
mkint wrote:

wtf CCP? Is it getting changed? What % of drone users have this at lvl 5? How many people are going to lose access to the simplest of the T2 drones? And it's a higher rank skill, driving up the SP requirements by 50%. You're just screwing over everyone with the summer expansion, aren't you CCP? One bad announcement after another.

It's intentional, and seemingly justified by the closure in gap between T1/Faction and T2 performance.


The racial drone skills being required for T2 sentries is an entirely different matter. Read my post a few comments up about the contradictory language in the post.

So the fix is to change
* "We are also splitting the current Combat Drone Operation skill into two new skills, Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation"
to
* "We are also splitting the current Combat Drone Operation "Scout Drone Operation (to be renamed to Drone Avionics)" skill into two new skills, Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation"

edit: bleh. still not clear.


The skill that they are splitting really makes sense to be the one that is split, there isn't really an easy way to go about fixing this....
Toshiro Ozuwara
Perkone
#542 - 2014-04-02 19:32:06 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Right click delete on EW drones sounds easy to me. P

Seriously; what is the problem with just removing them?

Whether you agree with having them in game or not, ECM drones are a big deal.

It didn't take long to locate the tracking beacon, deep inside the quarters for sleepin' They thought they could get away Not today, it's not the way that this kid plays

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#543 - 2014-04-02 19:36:08 UTC
Toshiro Ozuwara wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Right click delete on EW drones sounds easy to me. P

Seriously; what is the problem with just removing them?

Whether you agree with having them in game or not, ECM drones are a big deal.


big deal in this case means overpowered, like all things ecm-related. remove pls.
Methonash Qorranto
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#544 - 2014-04-02 19:36:40 UTC
Nira Meru wrote:

except you also lost 50% damage from sentry drone interfacing althought i think the base damage change puts curators ahead of previous damage.


Already took that into account when writing my previous post. With all skills super-maxed for sentry piloting, the new Curator line-up is buffed by 8.3% more DPS.
Aerozzz
Afragoi Ltd
#545 - 2014-04-02 19:42:07 UTC
I don't understand why the change for the base FiBo damage couldn't be done nn a separate thread (both forum thread and development thread :P).

A change to the base FiBo damage isn't orthogonal to the role of the supercarriers. Imho, it makes much more sense to discuss such a change on a 'Balancing Capitals and Supercapitals" thread (which should be done at some point, sooner rather than later).

The changes regarding the skills that affect the Fighters and FiBos stats (durability / sharpshooting etc) are generally less 'intrusive' and solve a real issue (FiBos annihilated by ISBoxer single bomb runs), although they could also be postponed as well (I don't think anyone would complain :P).

You're changing too much in a single 'iteration' (from light drone DPS to the relative roles of SuperCarriers). It doesn't seem reasonable to me (and you're doing exactly what you said you didn't want to do -- changing too much stuff in one go, so that you cannot isolate and monitor the side-effects of each change on the TQ / the current meta).
stoicfaux
#546 - 2014-04-02 19:46:32 UTC
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
mkint wrote:

wtf CCP? Is it getting changed? What % of drone users have this at lvl 5? How many people are going to lose access to the simplest of the T2 drones? And it's a higher rank skill, driving up the SP requirements by 50%. You're just screwing over everyone with the summer expansion, aren't you CCP? One bad announcement after another.

It's intentional, and seemingly justified by the closure in gap between T1/Faction and T2 performance.


The racial drone skills being required for T2 sentries is an entirely different matter. Read my post a few comments up about the contradictory language in the post.

So the fix is to change
* "We are also splitting the current Combat Drone Operation skill into two new skills, Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation"
to
* "We are also splitting the current Combat Drone Operation "Scout Drone Operation (to be renamed to Drone Avionics)" skill into two new skills, Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation"

edit: bleh. still not clear.


The skill that they are splitting really makes sense to be the one that is split, there isn't really an easy way to go about fixing this....

Light/Medium Drone Operation (LDO/MDO) should be split from Scout Drone Operation (SDO) to ensure that folks don't lose their existing access to T2 light and medium drones. Combat Drone Operation (CDO) is removed and skill points refunded.

Optionally, if CCP is feeling generous, Light/Medium Drone Operation can then be raised to your current Combat Drone Operation (CDO) skill if it happens to be higher. Meaning, LDO and MDO are split from the higher of CDO or SDO. (CDO skillpoints would not be refunded.)


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Nira Meru
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#547 - 2014-04-02 19:47:49 UTC
So in summary i believe the community hates your dev blog for the following reasons.

1) it makes the nyx have no added value over the Aeon and thus makes the Nyx a valuless ships
A. less low slot?
B. better tank
C. Same or better gank
D. wtf i trained a nyx for a reason your now taking away that reason.

Solutions? Give Nyx very slight damage buff? like 11% damage per skill instead of 10? not sure what they want here.

2) Your increasing the SP Requirements
A) Racial drones = another skills
B) Max Damage has goal post moved, for max damage you now have to invest into 4 lvl 5 skills for max damage to drones, meaning many people at max damage now will be 15% less than max damage post patch
3) Can i say this again? 4 ******* lvl 5 skills must be trained even to 4 that sucks.

Solution?
I see three
1) keep it as is but refund all drone skills post patch allowing players to do wih the drone tree what they will.
2) Change it so that if i can fly it now i can fly it then --- Right now i can fly all sentries post patch i should be able to.
3) For people who have drone interfacing V Refund that skill and any skill that requires that skill because you've nerfed that skill in half.


3) Faction Sentries are better than Tech 2 Sentries
A) your spreadsheet don't lie, Same Base damage, Damage modifier, optimal, fallof, better tracking, more shield/armor/hp
B) This is out of line with other weapons sytems, you must recognize this some peoples primary weapon system.

Solutions: Decrease the tracking speed of Faction sentries to less than that of T2 sentries, or vice versa
Means factions are tankier and have less sp requirement, but less trackign as well.

4) Fighter/Fighter Bomber changes don't solve Bombing problem:
A) still to slow?
B) ISBoxer sucks.
C) Why you no fix ISBoxer
D) your greedy

Solution? End ISBOXER!

The fourth arguement seems to be the worst, and i think Fozzie has answered it, but the other seems to be completely valid concerns that your not taking into account.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#548 - 2014-04-02 19:49:36 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:

It's intentional, and seemingly justified by the closure in gap between T1/Faction and T2 performance.


The racial drone skills being required for T2 sentries is an entirely different matter. Read my post a few comments up about the contradictory language in the post.

So the fix is to change
* "We are also splitting the current Combat Drone Operation skill into two new skills, Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation"
to
* "We are also splitting the current Combat Drone Operation "Scout Drone Operation (to be renamed to Drone Avionics)" skill into two new skills, Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation"

edit: bleh. still not clear.


The skill that they are splitting really makes sense to be the one that is split, there isn't really an easy way to go about fixing this....

Light/Medium Drone Operation (LDO/MDO) should be split from Scout Drone Operation (SDO) to ensure that folks don't lose their existing access to T2 light and medium drones. Combat Drone Operation (CDO) is removed and skill points refunded.

Optionally, if CCP is feeling generous, Light/Medium Drone Operation can then be raised to your current Combat Drone Operation (CDO) skill if it happens to be higher. Meaning, LDO and MDO are split from the higher of CDO or SDO. (CDO skillpoints would not be refunded.)




The problem with splitting scout drone operation is that you then need to do something in order to give that control range.

The second one would work - having your Light/Medium Drone Operation raised up to whichever was higher of Combat Drone or Scout Drone would work well, with the new Drone Avionics being entirely based on your Scout Drone Operation skill. It could potentially be abused by newer players starting after the announcement, however.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#549 - 2014-04-02 19:51:13 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
  • We understand the frustrations expressed by some about how these changes do not address the Drone UI, AI and/or Ewar Drones. These are important issues, but they require a different set of resources to solve and we are not going to hold back meaningful positive changes to wait until we can fix everything at once.

  • Absolutely fair. Could I just ask, then, if there's any sense in keeping Electronic Warfare IV as a prerequisite for Advanced Drone Avionics? If nothing else, you could take the opportunity to break EWAR drones--whatever happens to them--free of that rather awkward prerequisite, yes?

    Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

    I voted in CSM X!

    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #550 - 2014-04-02 19:55:22 UTC
    Faction drones do not benefit from Racial Drone Specialization. T2 drones will do better damage due to this, with the skills trained.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

    Methonash Qorranto
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #551 - 2014-04-02 19:55:27 UTC
    Nira Meru wrote:

    Solution?
    I see three
    1) keep it as is but refund all drone skills post patch allowing players to do wih the drone tree what they will.
    2) Change it so that if i can fly it now i can fly it then --- Right now i can fly all sentries post patch i should be able to.
    3) For people who have drone interfacing V Refund that skill and any skill that requires that skill because you've nerfed that skill in half.


    Surely you must be aware, on some level, that none of these things will ever happen.

    And regarding your second point, CCP Fozzie has already explicitly stated that CCP will not post-patch reimburse players who already have the capacity to use tech2 sentries that fail to train the specific racial drone specialization skills prior to the actual patch.

    Thus, if you wish to keep using your tech2 sentries, you'll have to train their associated racial drone spec skills to a minimum of level 1 - even at a 5x time coefficient, that's only 40m * 4 = 160m = 2.67 hours to keep the bare-minimum requirement of using all 4 tech2 sentry classes.

    To get them competent in terms of DPS, though, you'll probably need at least level 4 in each skill, which is no small feat, either. I do feel your pain on that one.
    Shizuken
    Venerated Stars
    #552 - 2014-04-02 19:55:29 UTC
    CCP Logibro wrote:
    As someone that actually has Amarr Drone Specialization V, I'm happy that I can finally get some use out of that skill!


    I have been working on these too for a while on an alt. Glad to see they will be of some use now.
    Yumiko Shaku
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #553 - 2014-04-02 19:57:42 UTC
    Drak Fel wrote:
    Yumiko Shaku wrote:
    CCP Fozzie,
    So with the upcoming changes, mostly the one I want to ask about is the reduction of total drones from 20 to 10, with the way you are doing the bonuses as a 100% damage bonus to fighter and fighter bomber damage, is there a reason we can't see the return of standard drones to supercarriers minus the 100% role bonus effectively making it as useful as a regular carrier when using sub capital drones?

    And if not, can we please have a new capital drone that are micro ventures, because mining supers where amusing ^.^


    Supercarriers that are as useful a normal carrier for something other than grinding structures? That's crazy talk.

    Meiggghhhtttt but I want to go mining dammit.
    Weaselior
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #554 - 2014-04-02 20:00:49 UTC
    Grath Telkin wrote:


    ISboxer allows one man/woman to flawlessly give X number of accounts the exact same command at the exact same time. How is that not an unfair advantage over other players?
    ...
    Any changes to anything that deal with sov should come with a corresponding reduction in sov structure hp.

    both of these are eminently reasonable (the latter especially, sov sucks) it is just pretty orthoginal to a thread where isboxer bombing is nerfed somewhat and you can up your dps on uncontested structure shooting over the current

    so like i don't get why you're so angry the changes make the things you're annoyed at a little less bad while not even directly targeting them - just going out of the way a little on an unrelated rebalance to tweak things

    you should be pleased

    Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

    Erasmus Phoenix
    Avalanche.
    #555 - 2014-04-02 20:03:19 UTC
    Alternative implementation I've come up with talking to someone else - require a level in medium or light drone operation to use either T1 or T2, with Scout Drone Operation remaining the deciding factor in whether you can use T2 or not.

    It's not exactly consistent with how the other drone skills work, but it also doesn't screw people over much.
    Ranamar
    Nobody in Local
    Of Sound Mind
    #556 - 2014-04-02 20:36:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranamar
    For people who are curious, I made some graphs:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ahg6AchbYoJwdGY2UEozZ0cteXM3YmJqTm9VS3dHZnc&usp=sharing

    The tl;dr of it is that Curators have the optimal to reach out to almost the end of max-skilled drone control range, so, if you're expecting to often be closer to the target than your sentries or have signficantly increased drone control range, look into Bouncers but otherwise just run Garde/Curator. (Due to vagaries of the drone control system, you need to be within your own drone control range for assisted drones to attack, too.)

    ETA: Skills aren't included other than the one with max domi/ishtar skills and that I multiplied in 1.25 to optimal range for Drone Sharpshooting. Do not treat damage numbers as representative of what you would actually get, but rather use them to compare.
    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #557 - 2014-04-02 20:40:53 UTC
    mkint wrote:
    since there's no "drone upgrades" skill like there is with weapons?


    i agree we need a drone upgrades skill with a cpu reduction for drone modules per level trained... that way dla wont hurt so much on cpu.

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

    Nira Meru
    Royal Amarr Institute
    Amarr Empire
    #558 - 2014-04-02 20:42:32 UTC
    Methonash Qorranto wrote:
    Nira Meru wrote:

    Solution?
    I see three
    1) keep it as is but refund all drone skills post patch allowing players to do wih the drone tree what they will.
    2) Change it so that if i can fly it now i can fly it then --- Right now i can fly all sentries post patch i should be able to.
    3) For people who have drone interfacing V Refund that skill and any skill that requires that skill because you've nerfed that skill in half.


    Surely you must be aware, on some level, that none of these things will ever happen.

    And regarding your second point, CCP Fozzie has already explicitly stated that CCP will not post-patch reimburse players who already have the capacity to use tech2 sentries that fail to train the specific racial drone specialization skills prior to the actual patch.

    Thus, if you wish to keep using your tech2 sentries, you'll have to train their associated racial drone spec skills to a minimum of level 1 - even at a 5x time coefficient, that's only 40m * 4 = 160m = 2.67 hours to keep the bare-minimum requirement of using all 4 tech2 sentry classes.

    To get them competent in terms of DPS, though, you'll probably need at least level 4 in each skill, which is no small feat, either. I do feel your pain on that one.


    Yeah it's actually tbh lvl 5 in all i'd have to train for my drones to do 8.5% less damage than they do right now (Gardes atleast. )
    Gargep Farrow
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #559 - 2014-04-02 20:49:40 UTC
    CCP Fozzie,you say that you have allowed enough time for people to train what is needed. Well did you forget the refining changes and the time needed to train to get somewhat close to where a toon is at now. Add in drone training needed and now your claim makes no sense. I am already mapped for Industry/Drones, so its not too bad for me, but a lot of players are going to get hurt when the changes are looked at as a whole.
    Onslaughtor
    Phoenix Naval Operations
    Phoenix Naval Systems
    #560 - 2014-04-02 21:01:16 UTC
    So is there any plans to reduce the training time for the large size drones? Currently they are a 5x train same as large turrets, although they're split the same way as missiles, which are a 4x.

    This means that training for all t2 drones takes a very long time compared to another weapon system.