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Dev Blog: Giving Drones an Assist

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#561 - 2014-04-02 21:09:28 UTC
Gargep Farrow wrote:
CCP Fozzie,you say that you have allowed enough time for people to train what is needed. Well did you forget the refining changes and the time needed to train to get somewhat close to where a toon is at now. Add in drone training needed and now your claim makes no sense. I am already mapped for Industry/Drones, so its not too bad for me, but a lot of players are going to get hurt when the changes are looked at as a whole.

T2 sentry drones require Sentry Drone Interfacing V right now, after these changes they will require Sentry Drone Interfacing V and Racial Drone Specialization I. That is a whole 35 minute training time, I think they will live.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
EmeriL
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
#562 - 2014-04-02 21:15:33 UTC
Eh, so... anything about ecm drones?
Meandering Milieu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#563 - 2014-04-02 22:19:42 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Obil Que wrote:

Can you address the question of access to racial T2 sentries for those with Sentry Drone Interfacing trained to V. As it stands, those with that skill will lose access to existing weapons when the requirement for racial skills is implemented. Will those pilots receive the minimum level of racial skill to compensate?

Players will not be given racial drone spec skills. We're announcing this change early so that players have plenty of time to train the skills before the patch.



I may have missed it, but in the dev blog I didn't see which -level- of racial specialization is required to use T2 sentries. I'm just wondering because it would be dreadful if it were level 5. Require a 16-20 day training time for one type of T2 drone, and months for all 4, when a turret specialization on requires lvl 1 to fit T2s, would be harsh. It already seems kind of bad that you have to train ~12 days after training a ~20 day skill to get the T2 heavies. I understand they are racial seperations, but they aren't 4 different weapon systems, they are all drones. It's very skill intensive compared to any single turret.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#564 - 2014-04-02 22:29:40 UTC
Meandering Milieu wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Obil Que wrote:

Can you address the question of access to racial T2 sentries for those with Sentry Drone Interfacing trained to V. As it stands, those with that skill will lose access to existing weapons when the requirement for racial skills is implemented. Will those pilots receive the minimum level of racial skill to compensate?

Players will not be given racial drone spec skills. We're announcing this change early so that players have plenty of time to train the skills before the patch.



I may have missed it, but in the dev blog I didn't see which -level- of racial specialization is required to use T2 sentries. I'm just wondering because it would be dreadful if it were level 5. Require a 16-20 day training time for one type of T2 drone, and months for all 4, when a turret specialization on requires lvl 1 to fit T2s, would be harsh. It already seems kind of bad that you have to train ~12 days after training a ~20 day skill to get the T2 heavies. I understand they are racial seperations, but they aren't 4 different weapon systems, they are all drones. It's very skill intensive compared to any single turret.


Fozzie has said in this thread that all drones will now require only level I In the racial spec
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#565 - 2014-04-02 22:30:06 UTC
Meandering Milieu wrote:
I may have missed it, but in the dev blog I didn't see which -level- of racial specialization is required to use T2 sentries. I'm just wondering because it would be dreadful if it were level 5. Require a 16-20 day training time for one type of T2 drone, and months for all 4, when a turret specialization on requires lvl 1 to fit T2s, would be harsh. It already seems kind of bad that you have to train ~12 days after training a ~20 day skill to get the T2 heavies. I understand they are racial seperations, but they aren't 4 different weapon systems, they are all drones. It's very skill intensive compared to any single turret.


He didn't mention it there.. But in a post he said that Spec 1 will be all that's needed for ALL T2 Drones.. Putting them in line with Guns that only need Spec 1 for T2 Guns.
Methonash Qorranto
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#566 - 2014-04-02 23:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Methonash Qorranto
Nira Meru wrote:

Yeah it's actually tbh lvl 5 in all i'd have to train for my drones to do 8.5% less damage than they do right now (Gardes atleast. )


True.

You would indeed require Gallente Drone Specialization at level 5 in order for your Garde2's to do 6.5% *less* DPS than they currently do, after the summer patch is implemented (assuming that it's implemented as-currently-proposed).

Bad weather ahead in DPS-land for Garde2 users.
Meandering Milieu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#567 - 2014-04-03 00:07:24 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:

He didn't mention it there.. But in a post he said that Spec 1 will be all that's needed for ALL T2 Drones.. Putting them in line with Guns that only need Spec 1 for T2 Guns.


Erasmus Phoenix wrote:


Fozzie has said in this thread that all drones will now require only level I In the racial spec


Ah thank you, I'm still not through the entire thread. Sorry for the sperging :v
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#568 - 2014-04-03 00:33:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Money Makin Mitch
ugh
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#569 - 2014-04-03 00:37:52 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:


Yea, Way to make it all about me. What about the little guy who's alliance has collectively 4 supers. I'm sure he's super excited about the idea of having to make himself more vulnerable just so he can reach his current DPS potentials on TQ. That sure is great for him, I mean my alliance can just stay full tank fit and not care really, whats a few seconds when you have 50 supers grinding a thing right, but to a lesser entity, this change is a swift kick in the nuts, here, have this craptasitc sov system, oh, and we're going to make you either take longer or tank less, both of which are likely to attract the attention of super hunters while you're working.

Sure am glad we're making it easier on the new guy to break into 0.0. Guess he should just use stealth bombers to grind sov like the rest of the game.


CCP Fozzie wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
increasing the weapon system risk


Fighter Bombers are getting double base HP, plus the effects of the Drone Durability skill. This makes them less vulnerable to bombs, not more vulnerable.


What does that matter to ISboxer?


+1
Marsan
#570 - 2014-04-03 00:37:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsan
Honestly I can ever see using C or A drones unless they are are the same speed or DPS as the G and M drones. In general my drone bay is always too small. At best I can afford to carry 2 flights of drones for a given function. (And that's being generous.) I'm not going to bring along another set of in the hopes of finding the sweet spot where I only need a little speed for my drones to work. If you want them to be interesting you really need a really fast drone* low dps drone, a high alpha drone, a fast drone with good damage, and a high dps drone. (Still I'm not sure I'd ever use a high alpha drone, but maybe I'm too small of fights.)

With sentries it's even harder as I really only want dps and range. Tracking is nice, but honestly using a mjd for range works pretty well. I guess it might matter if I was using sentries in a non BS. Maybe high dps short range, long range low dps, decent speed low dps, and good tracking good dps fair range.


*Think inty speeds for lights, and cruiser AB speeds for heavy.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#571 - 2014-04-03 00:51:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Tippia wrote:

It's like this:

Before:
Garde I — 50 damage ×1.60 modifier ×1.8 (Drone Interfacing IV) ×1.05 (Sentry Interfacing I) = 151.2 damage at minimum skills.
Garde I — 50 damage ×1.60 modifier ×2 (DI V) ×1.25 (SI V) = 200 damage at max skills.
Garde II — 50 damage ×1.92 modifier ×2 (DI V) ×1.25 (SI V) = 240 damage at max skills.

After:
Garde I — 64 damage ×1.7 modifier ×1.4 (DI IV) ×1.05 (SI I) = 159.9 damage at minimum skills.
Garde I — 64 damage ×1.7 modifier ×1.5 (DI V) ×1.25 (SI V) = 204 damage at max skills.
Garde II — 64 damage ×1.7 modifier ×1.5 (DI V) ×1.25 (SI V) ×1.1 (Gal. Drone Spec V) = 224.4 damage at max skills.

T1 becomes 2% better at maxed skills (6% better at minimum skills); T2 becomes 6.5% worse at max skills (and max skills requires more SP).


So my exploration Ishtar is going to do 748 DPS instead of its current 800 DPS, assuming I train for 19 days to get Gallente spec up to 5. That blows. Starting to look like its gonna take 19 days and 400mil in faction DDAs to make my Garde IIs perform the same as they do now. And I still won't be able to control them via F1-F5 like any other weapon in game. Or move around while using them. Arg.


Given the cost of T2 sentries and the training needed to get to Sentry V to qualify, I can see the use of T2 sentries dropping off as more and more newer players look at it and decide to stick with T1. T2 probably are barely worth it under new rules unless you already have them trained.

If I get the gist of the original blog what they wanted is new players to be able to train interfacing to IV and Sentry to IV and still be almost as effective as a fully skilled player. Currently taking those two skills from IV to V gives you something like a 50% total damage hike.
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#572 - 2014-04-03 02:23:56 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Looking forward to all your feedback. CCP Rise and I have been working hard on these changes and we think they'll be great for the drone ecosystem as a whole.

:Edit:

I'm seeing a fair bit of confusion about the details of the Sentry changes. I left the nitty gritty details out of the text section of the blog since they don't lend themselves to easy summaries and the actual numbers were in the spreadsheet, but I'll go over the end results of the changes to T1 and T2 sentries here so people can see the whole picture. These numbers assume max skills:

Curator I - +15% tracking, -50% falloff, +18.15% damage
Warden I - +40% falloff, +12% damage
Garde I - +50% falloff, +2% damage
Bouncer I - +60% tracking, -12.5% optimal, +14.3% falloff, +2.86% damage

Curator II - +15% tracking, -50% falloff, +8.31% damage
Warden II - +40% falloff, +2.67% damage
Garde II - +50% falloff, -6.5% damage
Bouncer II - +60% tracking, -12.5% optimal, +14.3% falloff, -5.71% damage



Finally, your team appears to be doing something resembling meaningful work. the thought procsess still screams of 'we must have balance and therefore statistical equality' but it's a good step up - most notably in finally starting to fix dronelands PVE rewards and sentry logic.

though you might stand to gain checking your drone AI targeting logic and how it splits priorities based on range when using different drone sets - aggregate them to pick a target that matches all deployed drone ranges and you might save yourself some CPU. (treat all drones deployed as a single weapon group for picking a target - then if that fails break them up)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#573 - 2014-04-03 02:34:22 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Because its a stupid change that hurts anybody who doesn't have an established supercapital force?

Because it helps to further stifle the 0.0 environment by further forcing new groups to rely on an existing umbrella?

Because any change that promotes the botting that is ISboxer is bad, and this does exactly that?

your complaint is "isboxer exists" and "bombers exist"

these changes help by making isboxer bombers less effective on fbs sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Exactly.

Right now a Cyclops has 20,000 HP. The other fighter-bombers have 19,500 HP (Mantis and Tyrfing) or 20,500 (Malleus). After the HP is doubled, and the drone durability skill takes effect, their ability to take damage will substantially increase.

A Cyclop's lowest overall resist is against thermal. Its thermal EHP is ~24,500. With Drone Durability IV and the HP doubling, the FB has a new EHP to thermal of ~58,800.

Not to mention your fighter-bombers will be faster than before. So they'll do slightly less damage. Overall I think it's a buff.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#574 - 2014-04-03 02:46:39 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Because its a stupid change that hurts anybody who doesn't have an established supercapital force?

Because it helps to further stifle the 0.0 environment by further forcing new groups to rely on an existing umbrella?

Because any change that promotes the botting that is ISboxer is bad, and this does exactly that?

your complaint is "isboxer exists" and "bombers exist"

these changes help by making isboxer bombers less effective on fbs sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Exactly.

Right now a Cyclops has 20,000 HP. The other fighter-bombers have 19,500 HP (Mantis and Tyrfing) or 20,500 (Malleus). After the HP is doubled, and the drone durability skill takes effect, their ability to take damage will substantially increase.

A Cyclop's lowest overall resist is against thermal. Its thermal EHP is ~24,500. With Drone Durability IV and the HP doubling, the FB has a new EHP to thermal of ~58,800.

Not to mention your fighter-bombers will be faster than before. So they'll do slightly less damage. Overall I think it's a buff.

will a single bomb be hitting half as many fb targets than before the change, doing half as much damage as before?
Javon Bars
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#575 - 2014-04-03 02:52:11 UTC
So previously shield-based supercapitals were already the strongest supers in the game. You "balance" this by making them even stronger?

Sounds legit.
Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#576 - 2014-04-03 02:54:38 UTC
Any talk about utility drones?
Shield, nosferatu, web etc...
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#577 - 2014-04-03 02:58:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
James Amril-Kesh wrote:


A Cyclop's lowest overall resist is against thermal. Its thermal EHP is ~24,500. With Drone Durability IV and the HP doubling, the FB has a new EHP to thermal of ~58,800.

.



You realize how many bombs that number damage you quoted is right?

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Methonash Qorranto
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#578 - 2014-04-03 03:33:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Methonash Qorranto
Hasikan Miallok wrote:

Given the cost of T2 sentries and the training needed to get to Sentry V to qualify, I can see the use of T2 sentries dropping off as more and more newer players look at it and decide to stick with T1. T2 probably are barely worth it under new rules unless you already have them trained.


Exactly - and if you take a detailed look at the developers' spreadsheet for the upcoming drone changes, you'll see that the faction sentries are even BETTER than their tech2 counterparts in most areas: they get double the shield/armor HP, slightly reduced structure HP, and 5% better tracking! They're almost universally superior, when other things [such as damage] are held equal between the two.

The only condition under which tech2 sentries will still outpace their faction counterparts is when considering damage bonuses from the racial drone specialization skills, which will add another 10%. So, is it worth it? ... Certainly not in the short-term, but in the long-term, it can be.

Hasikan Miallok wrote:

If I get the gist of the original blog what they wanted is new players to be able to train interfacing to IV and Sentry to IV and still be almost as effective as a fully skilled player. Currently taking those two skills from IV to V gives you something like a 50% total damage hike.


Yep - Drone Interfacing 5 gives a (2/1.8) modifier bonus, and Sentry Drone Interfacing 5 gives a (1.25/1.2) modifier bonus, plus the tech 2 (1.2) damage modifier bonus, so...

(2/1.8) * (1.25/1.2) * 1.2 = 10/9 * 5/4 = 50/36 = 1.3889

Thus, it is a 38.89% DPS increase to spend ~1.5-2 months to train both skills up to 5 - and it actually makes the skill point investment sound - yet now tech1 pilots and wealthier capsuleers (who're willing to fork over the ISK for faction sentries) instantly get near-maximum DPS projection levels.

This is part of a movement that is [not-so-subtly] wrecking the value of skill point investment--instead, we are bearing witness to instant-gratification DPS for level 1 sentry drone users.

So much for being a veteran!

Ugh.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#579 - 2014-04-03 03:53:19 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:


A Cyclop's lowest overall resist is against thermal. Its thermal EHP is ~24,500. With Drone Durability IV and the HP doubling, the FB has a new EHP to thermal of ~58,800.

.



You realize how many bombs that number damage you quoted is right?

A scorch bomb applies 2,000 thermal damage to a fighter-bomber (6400 base * (125 m FB signature radius / 400 m bomb explosion radius)). Let's make an assumption that one out of every four stealth bombers is a Nemesis with Covert Ops 4. That raises the average bomb damage to 2,100.

24500 / 2100 = 11.67...
12 scorch bombs to destroy a non-MWDing Cyclops prior to the changes.
Two bomb runs of 7 can easily do this (two of 6 can but the 7th is a backup).

58,800 / 2100 = 28
28 scorch bombs to destroy a non-MWDing Cyclops with Drone Durability IV after the changes. 30 with Drone Durability V.
You need four bomb runs of 8 to destroy this.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Narcil
Coldstone Cold Stone's
#580 - 2014-04-03 04:00:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Narcil
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

A scorch bomb applies 2,000 thermal damage to a fighter-bomber (6400 base * (125 m FB signature radius / 400 m bomb explosion radius)). Let's make an assumption that one out of every four stealth bombers is a Nemesis with Covert Ops 4. That raises the average bomb damage to 2,100.

24500 / 2100 = 11.67...
12 scorch bombs to destroy a non-MWDing Cyclops prior to the changes.
Two bomb runs of 7 can easily do this (two of 6 can but the 7th is a backup).

58,800 / 2100 = 28
28 scorch bombs to destroy a non-MWDing Cyclops with Drone Durability IV after the changes. 30 with Drone Durability V.
You need four bomb runs of 8 to destroy this.

or 1 run if the bomber pilot isn't a complete moron and hits them while they are mwding. they have to mwd at some point.