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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Droidyk
Maniacal Miners INC
The Legends In The Game
#1661 - 2014-03-30 17:14:07 UTC
This is great!
Inspiration
#1662 - 2014-03-30 17:56:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
@Red deck

Allowing perfect refine anywhere removes all future wiggle room for improvements. Being able to attain the same for what is now reprocessing re-introduces modules compression, which is undesirable. In a game where choice should make a difference, 100% recyclable good is bad!

Maybe you just missed the buff to ore mineral content.

And installations do not have to be equal, in fact there is no logic in expecting them to be. You can buy a new car in RL and it will likely be better then your old one. You can also buy a different type of car, that is only allowed on racetracks and it will go faster. Old and new can co-exist and have their own niece application. Old being the NPC stations obviously.

You speak of immersion, but what you describe you want is 100% opposite of that.

Your still at it. Has your opinion on the PoS modules changed with concerns to skill requirements?

What about compression needing skill requirements?


I do not mind some skill requirements, but i see no need, nor justification for them affecting refining outcome. I see two possible systems of requirements:

1. One is the non-ore specific reprocessing and reprocessing efficiency to a certain level. The high sec refinery level 3 skills would suffice and for the low sec intensive refinery level 4.

2. Additional ore specific requirements are likely harder to implement as this is dynamic. If you refine veldspar, scordite refining skills should not apply. This could be tricky with existing code. But if possible, here too a prerequisite level for being able to use the refinery without influencing the outcome seems reasonable.

The same goes for ore compression, level 4 for the non-ore specific skills would be a good threshold. Not too hard to get, but not entirely free either. Most miners will already have there skills as they trained them to get access to mining crystals.

I am serious!

Inspiration
#1663 - 2014-03-30 18:01:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Bhock wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Would it help to know some CSM are still following along?

m

No module should nullify millions of SP of skills, because "of the old PoS code"... or I need guns that require no gun skills and are better than a fully skilled gunner (or take any other example you can imagine).

If that disregard of the refiners that invested heavily in refining is a stop-gap solution before the new PoS code coming this summer or winter, then it is acceptable... but if CCP kills 5M+ SP from a part of their playerbase for years to come (PoS code has been in the pipes for years, now), then they have to change that NoSkill Reprocessing PoS Module to much lower refining values.

Or refund the SPs spend in those skills (but leave the skills at 0)... I don't care what they decide but many players have invested more SP in those skills than in the old Learning Skills, which got refunded when they became obsolete.

The only refiners winning here are those in null, with a Minmattar Station... and it's not the majority of the players with refining skills.

Other than that, have CCP work on he Capital Industrials and the T2 transports (and a crapload of T2 ships that are waiting for their review)

And have CCP answer on that thread, wih an acceptable answer or timeline.

p.s.: if CCP wants to give that PoS module, they can make it a deployable (it will be offline in most cases, anyway) that will take the skills into account, and they provide the function they want to cater without hurting part of their playerbase.


Don't overdo it, ore-specific skills also gives access to T1 and T2 mining crystals. If fact that is the sole reason most have had to train it, nothing will change there.

The mobile refineries only process ice and ores.

For reprocessing of modules you will still need stations and scrap metal processing skills. Most never trained that beyond level 3 as more was generally pointless as perfect reprocessing was achieved with that level of training. Level 3 will give 53% after the change and you can up that to 55% if you specialize and train further.

Level 3 is hardly a deep skill investment. If in the past you made the mistake to over train it, then now that it actually will give you something is hardly a time to ask for a SP refund.

Also if rail guns suddenly become the weapon of the year because of a buff to them, does that justify demanding refund of SP invested in all other weapon systems? If you would find that silly, then you know how i look at SP refund because of these changes!

I am serious!

Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1664 - 2014-03-30 18:28:34 UTC
Albert Spear wrote:
As a career miner and a solo toon, I really like it.

It gives me reason to go into low sec and worm holes for the purpose of mining and refining.

Overall, running some simple math on the numbers, I doubt my income will take a huge hit, and loot from the wrecks in the belts will actually be helpful.

I am not thrilled about scrap metal, but I can deal with that particular change.

Overall a step in the right direction, now we just need to apply skills in Nul sec to refining and think about how this is going to impact freighter operations in high sec.

More compressed ore in high sec means fewer freighter runs in all probability and a need for a mid-sized cargo ship (e.g. in the 150-300,000 m3 range).

ha... sure it does.....

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
Gooseflock Featheration
#1665 - 2014-03-30 18:28:40 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
@Red deck

Allowing perfect refine anywhere removes all future wiggle room for improvements. Being able to attain the same for what is now reprocessing re-introduces modules compression, which is undesirable. In a game where choice should make a difference, 100% recyclable good is bad!

Maybe you just missed the buff to ore mineral content.

And installations do not have to be equal, in fact there is no logic in expecting them to be. You can buy a new car in RL and it will likely be better then your old one. You can also buy a different type of car, that is only allowed on racetracks and it will go faster. Old and new can co-exist and have their own niece application. Old being the NPC stations obviously.

You speak of immersion, but what you describe you want is 100% opposite of that.

Your still at it. Has your opinion on the PoS modules changed with concerns to skill requirements?

What about compression needing skill requirements?


I do not mind some skill requirements, but i see no need, nor justification for them affecting refining outcome. I see two possible systems of requirements:

1. One is the non-ore specific reprocessing and reprocessing efficiency to a certain level. The high sec refinery level 3 skills would suffice and for the low sec intensive refinery level 4.

2. Additional ore specific requirements are likely harder to implement as this is dynamic. If you refine veldspar, scordite refining skills should not apply. This could be tricky with existing code. But if possible, here too a prerequisite level for being able to use the refinery without influencing the outcome seems reasonable.

The same goes for ore compression, level 4 for the non-ore specific skills would be a good threshold. Not too hard to get, but not entirely free either. Most miners will already have there skills as they trained them to get access to mining crystals.


The ore specific skills are where most of the skill points are though. The higher the skill the better the refine. A station can refine anything, and anyone can use the refining array. It should be the skills though that determine what you get at the refining array.

Level 4 for compression is fine. Its the set standard anyway for the Rorqual, which will need some love once, and hopefully before the expansion hits.

The difference between skills in regards to compression is they simply unlock compression, while skills actually affect the yield from refining. i.e You can't compress better by having level 5 skill, however even in current system you can refine better by having better ore specific skills in the lowest of the low quality refining stations.
Red Deck
The Tebo Corp
#1666 - 2014-03-30 19:50:03 UTC
**** it, what's with this goddamn forum? I have lost two page-long posts today for no apparent reason!?

Inspiration wrote:
Allowing perfect refine anywhere removes all future wiggle room for improvements.

What kind of future improvements you have in mind?

Inspiration wrote:
Being able to attain the same for what is now reprocessing re-introduces modules compression, which is undesirable. In a game where choice should make a difference, 100% recyclable good is bad!

Good, we agree then - I specifically stated that I would consider 5%-10% scrapmetal processing waste reasonable. And you will find more on modules compression (and how I don't like it either) in my post.

Inspiration wrote:
Maybe you just missed the buff to ore mineral content.

I haven't. It's just that this buff has nothing to do with it. I am not talking about getting fewer total minerals out of my ore in hisec (mind you, I am not a professional miner, even though oddly enough I do feel like mining a bit every now and then). I am talking about the maximum attainable yield being better in nullsec player-owned refineries than in hisec refineries - that's the part that doesn't make sense to me.

Inspiration wrote:
And installations do not have to be equal, in fact there is no logic in expecting them to be. You can buy a new car in RL and it will likely be better then your old one. You can also buy a different type of car, that is only allowed on racetracks and it will go faster. Old and new can co-exist and have their own niece application. Old being the NPC stations obviously.

Not sure what the car analogy is supposed to mean... but I have never suggested installations should be equal. Just the opposite, in fact - I am all for player owned outposts being "better" in that they don't require as much investment in skills/implants and no investment in NPC standing (because they require investment of different kind). I just don't think the maximum attainable yield should be different.

Inspiration wrote:
You speak of immersion, but what you describe you want is 100% opposite of that.

Immersion-wise, it doesn't make sense to me that by refining ore in player-owned nullsec outposts instead of hisec NPC stations, the ore should yield more minerals. Associated costs could and should differ, that's for sure, but not the ideal yield.


To make the long story short, my suggestion is:

1) keep "perfect ore/ice refine" one can reach at 100% (of whatever)
2) make it possible to achieve "perfect ore/ice refine" in hi/low/null
3) make it most difficult to achieve "perfect ore/ice refine in hisec, easier in lowsec, and easiest in nullsec

4) introduce 5%-10% unavoidable waste for scrapmetal processing
5) provide less clunky ways of moving large quantities of minerals around (dedicated JF, mineral compression)


And just to make myself clear - I don't think the proposed changes will destroy hisec industry, hisec manufacturers, hisec miners, or anyone else (except salvagers, that is), just like they won't bring more indy types into nullsec. I just happen to think that they are overly complicated and confusing. They will affect the prices of ores and minerals in hisec (which will eventually find a new equilibrium, though, that will basically keep the ISK-efficiency of hisec miners the same as it currently is), they will make nullsec dwellers haul compressed ore instead of 425mm railguns and get an effective discount on minerals (refined from ores acquired in hisec), but that's about it. I believe the same can be achieved in a more elegant way that will make fewer players unhappy.
Hair Loss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1667 - 2014-03-30 19:55:15 UTC
I am a PvPer in low sec albeit semi-casually these days because of my job. I have lived in Null (both NPC and Sov) and High sec too. I make capitals on the side to fund my PvP. I am not a carebear.

In EVE we always talk about risk vs reward - greater risk comes with greater reward. That's why I'm posting here. Null sec will have as mentioned previously almost 200mil on most capitals advantage on low sec/sov null/wh. There's no good reason for this from a risk vs reward standpoint.

Null is one of the safest places in the game (see: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats/2014-03) pick any month you care to. Even pick January the month of the BR-5 battle. Null sec has over 100k less deaths than low sec and almost 150k less than high sec that month.

The best refining will be in stations which are a notorious pain in the ass to flip and with the current null sec arrangements (2 big coalitions, B0tlord agreement, etc) stations are much less likely to switch (they don't eve die like a POS) than POSs are. Why aren't POSs the best refining? They are a much bigger risk and often lead to even greater conflict at timers. It also means everyone can enjoy the change to refining that will now make some of those skills worthwhile.

If somewhere along the line I've lost the EVE plot please let me know - I've always played the game for the risk vs reward style and if the game is changing from that please let me know.
Inspiration
#1668 - 2014-03-30 20:16:57 UTC
@Malcolm Lionel

It is true that currently maxed skills help making use of the lowest quality stations (with respect to refining). After the patch it will still affect achievable results in stations and outposts alike in the same way.

Just giving a mobile refinery a 2% higher base refine rate and having all skills apply like in stations would have made sense if the game was new and everything was introduced at the same time. But we have one system moving over to something a new that is preferred. Preferred for other reasons then the refining ratio itself!.

From day 1, mobile refining is clearly intended to have enough of a tangible edge for certain professions that its use will gain traction. To get the these intended results, it is necessary to make it directly appeal to a large group of players that can use it quickly once introduced. In a way, it needs to be disruptive...shake things up.

At the same time it will be unfavorable if the mineral supply suddenly dropped because of people first having to skill up to best achievable mineral extraction levels. CCP re-balanced ore mineral content to prevent this and the system you are suggesting would need another re-balance once players skilled up to level 5 or else too much minerals would be the result.

Having prerequisite skills to use is a good compromise, having the skills affect refine outcome would not achieve intended goals.

I will explain why:

Current maxed players using NPC stations would not suddenly deploy POS to get that extra base few % worth, nor would new players as all is relative. Training a skill to the next level is just so easy for new players, and old players know they have to spend a long time to have access to that small edge and simply do not do it, knowing most others will feel the same.

Training a skill up is not true player skill. What would be the incentive to get into POS based industry? Certainly not that small a margin and it affects maybe less then a percent in total production costs. And economically speaking you do not need to be the most efficient to make it in industry. You just have to make sure you do not lag far behind the majority and play well in other areas. That level 4 to 5 would just be a lot of extra training for very little efficiency reward, and even less when measured in competitive advantage.

I believe you will see a push to get more industry done in POS and reduce the power of stations in all industry aspects. This is just the first blog we get about the summer expansion. We are likely to see several more that tie into this. Imagine manufacturing many things at a POS instead of stations. Gone are the logistical nightmare scenario's some have posted here to get just that 2% refining edge. Have an open mind and trust there is a plan behind all this.

Now you understand (i hope) that there is absolutely nothing tangible to be gained by making skills affect refining outcome on mobile refineries, beyond setting some minimum requirements for use. Still doing so just because it stops one group of people feeling disadvantaged will enrage another group etc.

I can bring forward logical reasons of why something new is different in some aspects then the old, and i did, but it does not seem to help. It just gets dismissed and fought even harder because it does not lead to the initially desired outcome of those who oppose what CCP decided.

I am serious!

Inspiration
#1669 - 2014-03-30 20:26:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
@Hair Loss

If more activity comes to null, then null will become less safe. It is like with operating systems and browsers...the least popular products always seems to have the least bugs. That is...until they become popular too.

Saying current null is safe and therefore does not deserve a numerical advantage in something is not enough justification to oppose that advantage based on a risk/reward mantra. You grossly oversimplify the dynamics that take place in EVE...or to be precise...discard all of them.

I am serious!

GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1670 - 2014-03-30 20:31:10 UTC
So getting around to putting stuffs into a spreadsheet i noticed some minor descrepancies in your tables.

The compressed ore after doesn't follow the raw ores after



The following listings of numbers is based on this "Base ore / 5% ore / 10% ore"

Primarily Pyroxeres' Noxcium and Jaspet's Zydrine

Pyroxeres' Noxcium has gone from 11/12/12 to 5/5/5 on the ore chart
Jaspet's Zydrine has gone from 8/8/9 to 3/3/3 on the ore chart

By this we would expect the compressed versions to have equal output ratio's of each, but they aren't

Instead Compressed Pyroxeres's Noxcium is 2279/2486/2486
And Compressed Jaspets Zydrine is 166/166/187

The ores base values differences are suppose to be base value 5% increase and 10% increase.
Since the Base values are too small for uncompressed it is following through to Compressed, But instead this could be rectified with the compression to express the proper values of the higher grade ores.

Proposed change
Compressed Pyroxeres Noxcium 2279/2392/2506
Compressed Jaspets Zydrine 166/176/187

Doubt you'll use my numbers but its just there to get the point across that the math gets a bit funny and lost from one cycle to the next where it could be corrected to its theoretical intended value.
Hair Loss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1671 - 2014-03-30 20:31:23 UTC
@Inspiration

That made no sense sorry. Wouldn't the same be true for any part of space? Might as well buff high sec with that logic.

Also, please post on your main.
Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1672 - 2014-03-30 20:33:37 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
@Red deck

Allowing perfect refine anywhere removes all future wiggle room for improvements. Being able to attain the same for what is now reprocessing re-introduces modules compression, which is undesirable. In a game where choice should make a difference, 100% recyclable good is bad!

Maybe you just missed the buff to ore mineral content.

And installations do not have to be equal, in fact there is no logic in expecting them to be. You can buy a new car in RL and it will likely be better then your old one. You can also buy a different type of car, that is only allowed on racetracks and it will go faster. Old and new can co-exist and have their own niece application. Old being the NPC stations obviously.

You speak of immersion, but what you describe you want is 100% opposite of that.



Some part of his idea holds merit!
I really liked increasing hi sec refine yield by increasing skill needs ( and lowering them a bit for low sec) and increasing standings need
I think this solves several problems:
Opening up a skill possibility for more refining yield for char who wanna stay in high sec, without endangering null sec buff to encouraging industry down, but at the same time without giving null sec too big of an advantage.
Currently, there is no use for a high sec max skill char, ppl in high sec would just own POS a get a 2.9% more yield
Lowering the skill requirement for null sec max refine also encourage new players to move there and start their career, which I believe is something u want.

Keeping the current change does not affect new char, there must be something for them. (POS refine is not for them as u said it is a corp wide thing)

Let me illustrate

Currently a skill train of months ( three I believe ) to get V in all refining skills will only net u 72.4 in high sec
Meanwhile same max skill will get 80+ in null topping at 86.8 in a fully upgraded station

Lower max refine requirement in null to 4
Allow an additional 5% refine yield in hisec for 5 , or attach it to standings
Ie: 72.4 at the current needed standing
74 at 7.5 standings
76% at 8.5 standings
77% at 9.5

( the number r just an example , but I think the idea holds merit.)

Finally, let me restate that null should have an advantage but skill should also affect high sec more and why not standings too
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1673 - 2014-03-30 20:37:36 UTC
Hair Loss wrote:
I am a PvPer in low sec albeit semi-casually these days because of my job. I have lived in Null (both NPC and Sov) and High sec too. I make capitals on the side to fund my PvP. I am not a carebear.

In EVE we always talk about risk vs reward - greater risk comes with greater reward. That's why I'm posting here. Null sec will have as mentioned previously almost 200mil on most capitals advantage on low sec/sov null/wh. There's no good reason for this from a risk vs reward standpoint.

Null is one of the safest places in the game (see: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats/2014-03) pick any month you care to. Even pick January the month of the BR-5 battle. Null sec has over 100k less deaths than low sec and almost 150k less than high sec that month.

The best refining will be in stations which are a notorious pain in the ass to flip and with the current null sec arrangements (2 big coalitions, B0tlord agreement, etc) stations are much less likely to switch (they don't eve die like a POS) than POSs are. Why aren't POSs the best refining? They are a much bigger risk and often lead to even greater conflict at timers. It also means everyone can enjoy the change to refining that will now make some of those skills worthwhile.

If somewhere along the line I've lost the EVE plot please let me know - I've always played the game for the risk vs reward style and if the game is changing from that please let me know.


Bingo.

The null sec propagandists will say they DESERVE the huge advantages being handed them, because they had to fight for all that they have. Like building capitals in low sec is risk-free. Also, if you look at the growth rate of the goons and cfc now, you realize that the vast majority of them never had to fight much, if at all, for the turf they have now.

More and more, it becomes clear that CCP wants to drive people into the waiting arms of the null sec cartels, where they can pay the null sec leaders a tithe for the privilege of living in THEIR space.

Frankly, every single area of Eve space should have 100% refine, and that means POS's, sov space, high sec NPC space, everything.

If the goons need this nerf of high sec and low sec, plus this massive advantage gifted to them, there is something wrong with their business model, not the current game mechanics.
Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1674 - 2014-03-30 20:46:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Harah Noud
Inspiration wrote:
@Malcolm Lionel

It is true that currently maxed skills help making use of the lowest quality stations (with respect to refining). After the patch it will still affect achievable results in stations and outposts alike in the same way.

Just giving a mobile refinery a 2% higher base refine rate and having all skills apply like in stations would have made sense if the game was new and everything was introduced at the same time. But we have one system moving over to something a new that is preferred. Preferred for other reasons then the refining ratio itself!.

From day 1, mobile refining is clearly intended to have enough of a tangible edge for certain professions that its use will gain traction. To get the these intended results, it is necessary to make it directly appeal to a large group of players that can use it quickly once introduced. In a way, it needs to be disruptive...shake things up.

At the same time it will be unfavorable if the mineral supply suddenly dropped because of people first having to skill up to best achievable mineral extraction levels. CCP re-balanced ore mineral content to prevent this and the system you are suggesting would need another re-balance once players skilled up to level 5 or else too much minerals would be the result.

Having prerequisite skills to use is a good compromise, having the skills affect refine outcome would not achieve intended goals.

I will explain why:

Current maxed players using NPC stations would not suddenly deploy POS to get that extra base few % worth, nor would new players as all is relative. Training a skill to the next level is just so easy for new players, and old players know they have to spend a long time to have access to that small edge and simply do not do it, knowing most others will feel the same.

Training a skill up is not true player skill. What would be the incentive to get into POS based industry? Certainly not that small a margin and it affects maybe less then a percent in total production costs. And economically speaking you do not need to be the most efficient to make it in industry. You just have to make sure you do not lag far behind the majority and play well in other areas. That level 4 to 5 would just be a lot of extra training for very little efficiency reward, and even less when measured in competitive advantage.

I believe you will see a push to get more industry done in POS and reduce the power of stations in all industry aspects. This is just the first blog we get about the summer expansion. We are likely to see several more that tie into this. Imagine manufacturing many things at a POS instead of stations. Gone are the logistical nightmare scenario's some have posted here to get just that 2% refining edge. Have an open mind and trust there is a plan behind all this.

Now you understand (i hope) that there is absolutely nothing tangible to be gained by making skills affect refining outcome on mobile refineries, beyond setting some minimum requirements for use. Still doing so just because it stops one group of people feeling disadvantaged will enrage another group etc.

I can bring forward logical reasons of why something new is different in some aspects then the old, and i did, but it does not seem to help. It just gets dismissed and fought even harder because it does not lead to the initially desired outcome of those who oppose what CCP decided.



Several point that I disagree with:

1- currently the only max refine skill players (if any) r in null . Bcz in hisec u don't need a fully trained char for perfect refine
2- with the current changes NO ONE in hi sec would spend 130 days of train to get a refine rate that they can get in a small POS with no need for skills
3- this goes against CCP aim for the changes, which is to encourage ppl to train their skills , rendering the whole change moot (btw u ve never addressed this point! instead u created aim and goals that we're not proposed by CCP)
4- I m sry but as an industrialist a 2.9% additional refine rate is a HUGE advantage over those without it, without mentioning the 15-20 mil advantage over BS hull null sec industrialist would have (numbers by Myanna)
5- I don't understand why u say nothing tangible would be gained by skills affecting a POS... EVE is based on skills and till this point u have not named ONE career that skills do not affect positively , why start with refining
6- if 2.9 percent r not important why ppl pay 200-300 mil to get an implant that increases mining from 3%to 5%
Inspiration
#1675 - 2014-03-30 21:13:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Red Deck wrote:
What kind of future improvements you have in mind?


At this moment, nothing...and this is exactly my point!

If the best upgraded outpost would give 100% refine....any future improvement would bring us back to the exact same issues we have now (110% refine etc). It would be pointless to at a later date introduce level 4 outpost upgrades or advanced refining skills! As I doubt there is an exact formulated plan for the next 20 years of EVE, designing to have this wiggle room is wise.


Red Deck wrote:
Good, we agree then - I specifically stated that I would consider 5%-10% scrapmetal processing waste reasonable. And you will find more on modules compression (and how I don't like it either) in my post.


How hard the reprocessing of modules should be hit is something CCP can judge better then either of us. They got raw numbers, can project scenarios on how it affect the population and how it ties in with their other near future plans.


Red Deck wrote:
I am not talking about getting fewer total minerals out of my ore in hisec (mind you, I am not a professional miner, even though oddly enough I do feel like mining a bit every now and then). I am talking about the maximum attainable yield being better in nullsec player-owned refineries than in hisec refineries - that's the part that doesn't make sense to me.

Not sure what the car analogy is supposed to mean... but I have never suggested installations should be equal. Just the opposite, in fact - I am all for player owned outposts being "better" in that they don't require as much investment in skills/implants and no investment in NPC standing (because they require investment of different kind). I just don't think the maximum attainable yield should be different.


Rational explanations:

1. Newer technology is better.
2. Restrictions in dense populated areas and structures limit what safely can be done.

I for one find it illogical to expect every facility to be the exact same or max out at the same level.

In reply to your last comment...do you really expect every new car to have the same maximum speed as the old ones,, but just use less fuel and/or require less skill to drive?

Where does this "equality fetish" if you got the skills, come from?
It's unnatural and at odd with the universe, life and even very existence itself!


Red Deck wrote:
Immersion-wise, it doesn't make sense to me that by refining ore in player-owned nullsec outposts instead of hisec NPC stations, the ore should yield more minerals. Associated costs could and should differ, that's for sure, but not the ideal yield.


So you argue that those cannot install less safe, newer and better yielding hardware then century populated NPC stations?

40 years ago, I wouldn't have been able to own a 120 megabit internet connection. Now I do...even if back then i would have all of the money in the world...i still would been able to get that speed.

It is not trained skills, nor money that determines the fundamental limit to what can be achieved. It is the technology we use in the form of hard and software! If you can make use of these new limits, that is sometimes skill dependent, other times not.

I am serious!

Inspiration
#1676 - 2014-03-30 21:48:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Harah Noud wrote:
Several point that I disagree with:

1- currently the only max refine skill players (if any) r in null . Bcz in hisec u don't need a fully trained char for perfect refine
2- with the current changes NO ONE in hi sec would spend 130 days of train to get a refine rate that they can get in a small POS with no need for skills
3- this goes against CCP aim for the changes, which is to encourage ppl to train their skills , rendering the whole change moot (btw u ve never addressed this point! instead u created aim and goals that we're not proposed by CCP)
4- I m sry but as an industrialist a 2.9% additional refine rate is a HUGE advantage over those without it, without mentioning the 15-20 mil advantage over BS hull null sec industrialist would have (numbers by Myanna)
5- I don't understand why u say nothing tangible would be gained by skills affecting a POS... EVE is based on skills and till this point u have not named ONE career that skills do not affect positively , why start with refining
6- if 2.9 percent r not important why ppl pay 200-300 mil to get an implant that increases mining from 3%to 5%



1. Likely mostly correct.

But there are plenty of players that have low end ores maxed and even more that have level 4 because for T2 mining crystals. There are also players that wend to null and now live in high sec. I never wrote anything contrary to this, maybe you want to state the actual thing you disagree with?

2. I clearly stated in my (previous) post(s) that a base skill requirement to use the structures is not a bad idea.

Level 3 or 4 for reprocessing and reprocessing efficiency. That is a huge difference form thew 130 days you pulled form somewhere else.


3. CCP stated they no longer want to see maximum achievable efficiency (100%) at low skill levels, thus removing the need to train further.

POS refining does not give maximum achievable efficiency!
Acquiring max efficiency requires sov + outpost + 3 upgrades + max skills + 4% implant.


4. If you are an industrialist, its a poor one.

* Do all your minerals come from refining yourself?
* In the new system, you likely just have to refine 2-3 compressed ores: Veld, Scordite, Plagioclase
* The mineral content in these tree ores is good for the majority of the mineral volume products need.
* The rest you can move the old fashion way and buy from market, where miners refined for you.

The minerals from these ores are not the full cost picture of most items and ships you can produce!
Hence a 2% difference will not translate into a 2% cost difference!


5. Skills still do affect you.

If you decide to keep your industry in a station, then by all means, you are free to close the gap with the mobile refine. It gives you some advantages over POS refining. Yield is just not one of them, but the difference is small enough. Just train some low end ore processing skills to 5 and you are golden.


6. People buy many things with an return of investment (ROI) of like 3 decades.

First of all, your numbers are way off, but i will entertain you here.

Other stuff people do:

Paying over 1b for that other extra 5% mining implant.
Paying hundreds of millions for a harvester mining drone?
Paying more for a BPO that has silly ME with terrible ROI.


People are people and do stupid it because:

1. they are either stupid
2. like maxing things out as a play style
3. like the feel of appearing better in something then others.

But you all this around and use the fact that many of these people exist is proof there must be a good reason...well there often is not \o/.

I am serious!

Inspiration
#1677 - 2014-03-30 21:53:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Hair Loss wrote:
I am a PvPer in low sec albeit semi-casually these days because of my job. I have lived in Null (both NPC and Sov) and High sec too. I make capitals on the side to fund my PvP. I am not a carebear.

In EVE we always talk about risk vs reward - greater risk comes with greater reward. That's why I'm posting here. Null sec will have as mentioned previously almost 200mil on most capitals advantage on low sec/sov null/wh. There's no good reason for this from a risk vs reward standpoint.

Null is one of the safest places in the game (see: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats/2014-03) pick any month you care to. Even pick January the month of the BR-5 battle. Null sec has over 100k less deaths than low sec and almost 150k less than high sec that month.

The best refining will be in stations which are a notorious pain in the ass to flip and with the current null sec arrangements (2 big coalitions, B0tlord agreement, etc) stations are much less likely to switch (they don't eve die like a POS) than POSs are. Why aren't POSs the best refining? They are a much bigger risk and often lead to even greater conflict at timers. It also means everyone can enjoy the change to refining that will now make some of those skills worthwhile.

If somewhere along the line I've lost the EVE plot please let me know - I've always played the game for the risk vs reward style and if the game is changing from that please let me know.


Bingo.

The null sec propagandists will say they DESERVE the huge advantages being handed them, because they had to fight for all that they have. Like building capitals in low sec is risk-free. Also, if you look at the growth rate of the goons and cfc now, you realize that the vast majority of them never had to fight much, if at all, for the turf they have now.

More and more, it becomes clear that CCP wants to drive people into the waiting arms of the null sec cartels, where they can pay the null sec leaders a tithe for the privilege of living in THEIR space.

Frankly, every single area of Eve space should have 100% refine, and that means POS's, sov space, high sec NPC space, everything.

If the goons need this nerf of high sec and low sec, plus this massive advantage gifted to them, there is something wrong with their business model, not the current game mechanics.



Just LOL

I can't wait for the next dev blog and your next crusade!

Next thing you know everyone should earn the same, regardless what they do in the game!

I am serious!

Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
Gooseflock Featheration
#1678 - 2014-03-30 22:04:25 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Hair Loss wrote:
I am a PvPer in low sec albeit semi-casually these days because of my job. I have lived in Null (both NPC and Sov) and High sec too. I make capitals on the side to fund my PvP. I am not a carebear.

In EVE we always talk about risk vs reward - greater risk comes with greater reward. That's why I'm posting here. Null sec will have as mentioned previously almost 200mil on most capitals advantage on low sec/sov null/wh. There's no good reason for this from a risk vs reward standpoint.

Null is one of the safest places in the game (see: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats/2014-03) pick any month you care to. Even pick January the month of the BR-5 battle. Null sec has over 100k less deaths than low sec and almost 150k less than high sec that month.

The best refining will be in stations which are a notorious pain in the ass to flip and with the current null sec arrangements (2 big coalitions, B0tlord agreement, etc) stations are much less likely to switch (they don't eve die like a POS) than POSs are. Why aren't POSs the best refining? They are a much bigger risk and often lead to even greater conflict at timers. It also means everyone can enjoy the change to refining that will now make some of those skills worthwhile.

If somewhere along the line I've lost the EVE plot please let me know - I've always played the game for the risk vs reward style and if the game is changing from that please let me know.


Bingo.

The null sec propagandists will say they DESERVE the huge advantages being handed them, because they had to fight for all that they have. Like building capitals in low sec is risk-free. Also, if you look at the growth rate of the goons and cfc now, you realize that the vast majority of them never had to fight much, if at all, for the turf they have now.

More and more, it becomes clear that CCP wants to drive people into the waiting arms of the null sec cartels, where they can pay the null sec leaders a tithe for the privilege of living in THEIR space.

Frankly, every single area of Eve space should have 100% refine, and that means POS's, sov space, high sec NPC space, everything.

If the goons need this nerf of high sec and low sec, plus this massive advantage gifted to them, there is something wrong with their business model, not the current game mechanics.


There's not just the goons, other corps are recruiting to *whistles*. Your writing off N3 completely on this one, and other null sec corps/alliances.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1679 - 2014-03-30 22:16:29 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post.

The rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Inspiration
#1680 - 2014-03-30 22:20:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Hair Loss wrote:
@Inspiration

That made no sense sorry. Wouldn't the same be true for any part of space? Might as well buff high sec with that logic.

Also, please post on your main.


If you are unable to comprehend even basic dynamic processes, what good would it do to explain in more detail?
And what exactly makes you say this is an alt?

I am serious!