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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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Jill Chastot
WE FORM BL0B Inc.
Goonswarm Federation
#461 - 2014-03-24 22:55:23 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
No I don't like this.
If someone takes the effort of dropping probes and actively watching them, there's zero reason why they should not be able to detect new sigs immediately.
This change would swing it too fart the other way.

Probes should detect the sigs immediately, overlay needs a delay.


Overlay needs to go die in a hole quietly.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
Traba Regina
Serene Vendetta
#462 - 2014-03-24 22:57:14 UTC
I dislike the idea that an active group wouldnt see a sig even if actively probing. Bad idea.
By all means remove from overlay along with ore sites as there things you should hunt for.

Systems in null with 5000+ kills in a 24 period now that's an area we should be able to drop on more.. maybe make it more likely a k162 to open into active null areas... not a boring empty one.

Tldr. Active players should see sigs

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5171792#post5171792
Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#463 - 2014-03-24 22:58:47 UTC
OK...

How about a substantial delay before the sigs automatically show up on scanner, all across the board? Say 30 minutes for every class of hole. But you can probe them with probes from spawn. No delay for probing. At all. Zero. None.

I people don't want to Probe-Scan because they thing it is bad game-play... fine. Don't. Sig shows up anyway. Eventually.
And those that wants to have a securer op can probe-spam should they so choose.

Choice is good, right?
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#464 - 2014-03-24 23:03:50 UTC
Gustava Risalo wrote:


This is amazing logic. Holy crap lets take a moment to appreciate this.

You are Verge of Collapse amongst the most well known pvp entities in wormholes. You claim that you risk that some fleet you gank might just have enough people logged off waiting for you to jump them without the slightest hint or warning it would happen to you? Maybe I have spent too much time sizing up my enemy but every time I jump into a wormhole and see hostiles, I check their corp/alliance their killboard, and some limited history before making decisions.

Are you telling me that one of the most well known and bigger pvp groups in w-space doesn't do some active intel gathering of someone they might potentially gank before trying to kill them?
http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=57587

Let me guess that BR was a surprise oh we risked a lot to get a few kills we didn't know what they would log on?

Smell that? Yep its bull ****. Oh surprise coming from you.

You can have a full amount of intel gathered before you start a fight regardless of log off traps. If you choose not to gather intelligence its your own fault you lose ships. Don't come at me with your weak arguments. What is ridiculous is that ccp is even considering giving any entity any sort of intel advantage from active intel gathering sources just so you can have your gank and call it f pvp. Take your whiny elitist bull**** and shove it straight where the sun don' t shine.


You can look at all the killboards you want, and it still won't tell you what the enemy fleet has at that moment. You have a limited amount of time to ascertain the following:

1) Jump in new wormhole
2) See wrecks on scan
3) locate where wrecks are
4) find the caps and hope they are still sieged/triaged
5) get the name of the group running sites
6) anyone with a recognized name is going to pose more risk

Now, all this is assuming that they have completely ignored probes/overlay. If you want to catch these fleets before they move out, you have to sometimes jump in not knowing 100% of what to expect. Most people would love to get all the intel the can, but it's not an option sometimes.

So, you can sit here and call what Gnaw said BS, or you can recognize that pvp fleets do come with their own risks.

No trolling please
Jill Chastot
WE FORM BL0B Inc.
Goonswarm Federation
#465 - 2014-03-24 23:03:52 UTC
Bjurn Akely wrote:
OK...

How about a substantial delay before the sigs automatically show up on scanner, all across the board? Say 30 minutes for every class of hole. But you can probe them with probes from spawn. No delay for probing. At all. Zero. None.

I people don't want to Probe-Scan because they thing it is bad game-play... fine. Don't. Sig shows up anyway. Eventually.
And those that wants to have a securer op can probe-spam should they so choose.

Choice is good, right?


TLDR: go pre Odyssey.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#466 - 2014-03-24 23:05:37 UTC
Two step wrote:
PVE in w-space shouldn't be safe, at all, ever. You should *always* be watching over your shoulder.

yes, you SHOULD need to watch over your shoulder all the time, but if you ARE watching, you should NOT be punished by stupid mechanics that make your watching irrelevant.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Tyrant Scorn
#467 - 2014-03-24 23:08:29 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Two step wrote:
PVE in w-space shouldn't be safe, at all, ever. You should *always* be watching over your shoulder.

yes, you SHOULD need to watch over your shoulder all the time, but if you ARE watching, you should NOT be punished by stupid mechanics that make your watching irrelevant.


What he said :D

The Tyrant King

YouTube | Twitter | Twitch
Ariete
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#468 - 2014-03-24 23:12:27 UTC
Heres what i think the fix should be -


Anomalies are visible in the discovery scanner and in probe scanner as they are now.

Signatures follow the pre odyssey rules, once they are scanned to the red dot level they will appear in the discovery scanner display
Tribunus Zen
SON OF RAVANA
#469 - 2014-03-24 23:14:29 UTC
Being a WH dweller I think the delay is just a terrible idea.

I do both PVE/PVP, the DS has made in my opinion easier to gank, because basically you use your tracking camara to the sig on the overlay warp cloak, get a warp in and prepare to kill.

Having a delay on K162 or static, would just make the game more tedious not help with ganks, it usually takes more prep time than the proposed 5 min.

I would rather like to change pre-odyssey, where you have to probe all sigs, like I said havent had the need to drop combats probes in a long time, because DS basically show me the way.

The delay would NOT HELP, basically it would be more annoying.


Why dont you focus on Alliance bookmarks or sharing bookmarks in a less arcane method, every new smartphone can share locations now, or was the technology lost???

TRIB
Winthorp
#470 - 2014-03-24 23:19:38 UTC
Two step wrote:
That is simply not true. If anything the majority of people who actually live in w-space seem to agree that without probes, there should be a delay for K162s to show up.


I actually think it is you who isn't reading here, it looks like the majority of WH space doesn't want a delay but want people to have to do something to get the intel of a new sig.
Thead Enco
Domheimed
#471 - 2014-03-24 23:39:01 UTC
Two step wrote:
Also, I don't think you get to use the phrase "wh bro's" seeing as I can find no evidence at all that you have ever stepped foot in a wormhole. Perhaps you ought to leave the discussion to those that spend time in w-space?


Did I hit a nerve? Is PvP SO desolate and incredibly hard nowadays in w-space since i left it many moons ago that you need a crutch to provide content to your members?
Enta en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#472 - 2014-03-24 23:43:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Enta en Bauldry
Today, a (them)C6>C2(us) WH spawned into us. We had the K162 side. I assume they didn't like what they saw because they brought an Orca to roll and it was a 1 Billion KG hole. If we hadn't been able to scan it immediately we would never have killed the Orca.

I've spent quite a bit of time in W-Space, now please tell me how this was a bad thing Two Step.
Lucius Arcturus
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#473 - 2014-03-24 23:53:03 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Team Five O has been working on a few concepts for improvements to wormhole mechanics and we wanted to run one idea by you all to start some discussion in the community. This idea has already been discussed with the CSM, and we don't currently have specific plans to implement it but we think it's at least worth getting discussion started.

We have been thinking about and discussing the way that the Sensor Overlay has affected Wormhole life, mainly in the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing (which often indicates that the entry of hostile players may be imminent).
We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source.

The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.

This change would make life in wormholes a bit less safe, and increase the sense of real danger that unknown space should include. The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.

The delay could take a few potential forms, either a set timer of a couple minutes, a timer that has random elements or even one that is variable depending on the amount of mass that passes through the wormhole.

This would obviously be a very significant change to wormhole mechanics, and we think it may be a very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience.

I'd like to repeat that this change is currently not planned for any specific release, but we would like to start community discussion on the idea and see where it goes.

Let us know what you think in this thread, and we'll be watching closely.
Thanks!
-Fozzie


The pre-Odyssey system would be fine. This proposal might turn out to be an overcorrection.

CAPLF WH Sales

Capitalization in EVE Online
ORACOM
Stryker Industries
Stryker Group
#474 - 2014-03-24 23:53:51 UTC
At the behest of my alliance mates, I am posting this for consideration by the WH community.

From what I have gathered, CCP are trying to address two possible scenarios - both of which currenlty equate to zero risk on the WH resident.
Scenario 1: Static WHS can be closed and not opened unless warped to.
Scenario 2: Inbound WHS spawn immediately showing up on probe scan window.

Both of which I think need to be addressed. I agree that WH space should have more risk, but I disagree with the timer bit, as it drastically favours the hunter more than the defender. Ideally, we need a solution that is well balanced AND can address both scenarios.
I would propose the following change ... but this will only address Scenario 2. I welcome anyone to post a solution that can addresses both.

Proposed Solution: Only allows WHS to show up on probe scanner window (if you have probes out) or if you are 14 AU from where the signature spawns (without probes).

Reason(s): It allows CCP to maintain their scanning changes - that make it easier for new pilots to identify and scan down signatures. I am also going to assume that this solution should be simple to implement (I am only guessing). And lastly, because it would affect every space equally (empire and null included). Under this solution, It would force people to warp around to each celestial in search of spawns. During escalations / farming - residents would have to use probes (pre odyssey) to maintain vigilance or devote pilots at each celestial outside of DSCAN range. Really, residents that dont bother to use either tactic - deserve to get podded. Attackers on the other hand would have the opportunity they need to pounce on targets ( all depending on the size of the wh). Those corps with smaller whs would have prime real-estate in this new world and perhaps this "enhancement" could drive more conflicts in wh space.

Senn Denroth
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#475 - 2014-03-24 23:59:30 UTC
Gustava Risalo wrote:
Gnaw LF wrote:
Gustava Risalo wrote:
There is one inherent problem with all of this hurf blurf about Risk vs reward. You gain the ability to roll holes unannounced until you find a nice target you can kill then you have the suprise factor on your side for killing them.




Where is your risk?

You get to pick your targets so you aren't going to take on anything your gang can't handle. You aren't going to roll holes without having the majority of your fleet on standby and have a fairly accurate idea of fleet composition. So where is your risk? You get nothing but the rewards of the kills and the fact that you can make even more isk when you run sites.

Also don't feed me the bs about how you will engange anything or you won't pick a fight you won't win. Thats a load of garbage.



Yeah, pvpers never risk their ships by warping into a sleeper site full without full knowledge of their opponent. When you try to kill someone in sleeper site you don't know how many people they have logged off in their system, you don't know how many capital ships they can bring in on a moments notice. Yes, ganks will still happen but to say that pvp oriented players don't have a risk when they initiate a fight is ridiculous.



This is amazing logic. Holy crap lets take a moment to appreciate this.

You are Verge of Collapse amongst the most well known pvp entities in wormholes. You claim that you risk that some fleet you gank might just have enough people logged off waiting for you to jump them without the slightest hint or warning it would happen to you? Maybe I have spent too much time sizing up my enemy but every time I jump into a wormhole and see hostiles, I check their corp/alliance their killboard, and some limited history before making decisions.

Are you telling me that one of the most well known and bigger pvp groups in w-space doesn't do some active intel gathering of someone they might potentially gank before trying to kill them?
http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=57587

Let me guess that BR was a surprise oh we risked a lot to get a few kills we didn't know what they would log on?

Smell that? Yep its bull ****. Oh surprise coming from you.

You can have a full amount of intel gathered before you start a fight regardless of log off traps. If you choose not to gather intelligence its your own fault you lose ships. Don't come at me with your weak arguments. What is ridiculous is that ccp is even considering giving any entity any sort of intel advantage from active intel gathering sources just so you can have your gank and call it f pvp. Take your whiny elitist bull**** and shove it straight where the sun don' t shine.


You seem mad you noob. Nobody is immune, and that is what wormhole space should be like. Eg: http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=34504

IMO what is should be changed to is 2-3 spawn timer for a K162 on the noob autoscanner. Or instant detection if you have probes out scanning, that way both the farmers are kept somewhat happy and the entities that roam like a wolf in the night are kept happy. Just as wormhole space should be.

You're making upwards of 300m/hr so grow some testies. Your ships are never really safe because wormholes space is supposed to be the wild west of EVE, a true sandbox. If you are voicing these concerns purely from a farmers point of view we will come for you, and no amount of probes or noobscanner will save you.

Whatever change you make Fozzie, I hope you consider it balanced for both parties like I have suggested above. This way the lazy people lose out, and those that are vigilant and activity playing the game will be kept on their toes.
Tyrant Scorn
#476 - 2014-03-25 00:02:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyrant Scorn
Bane Nucleus wrote:

Forget the delay part. Without probes, NO sig should show up. Want to find a sig? Drop probes.


Jack Miton wrote:
Two step wrote:
PVE in w-space shouldn't be safe, at all, ever. You should *always* be watching over your shoulder.

yes, you SHOULD need to watch over your shoulder all the time, but if you ARE watching, you should NOT be punished by stupid mechanics that make your watching irrelevant.


Winthorp wrote:
Two step wrote:
That is simply not true. If anything the majority of people who actually live in w-space seem to agree that without probes, there should be a delay for K162s to show up.


I actually think it is you who isn't reading here, it looks like the majority of WH space doesn't want a delay but want people to have to do something to get the intel of a new sig.



I have always had some forum trolling issues with the above quoted people but I have to unite with them with the things they say.

I am very surprised by reactions from people like Two Step, Ali Ares and some other outspoken people I thought I could take serious... but after reading their reactions I am worried about their ability to represent us wormholers. Two Step in particular... Am I glad you are not on the CSM anymore buddy.

Ali Ares, a person taken seriously by CCP, a representative voted into the CSM by the community is actively voicing very concerning thoughts. Thoughts that go against the majority of what is being said in this thread... and she actually has the balls to say she spoken to people... Well, I wonder who she spoke to, but they sure as hell shouldn't be taken serious.

If you people keep this up I am going to have to call in a meeting with Bane, Jack and Win and all the other people that seem to be on the same page and start a riot. Believe me, if I have to call in favors, we can start a fire...

The Tyrant King

YouTube | Twitter | Twitch
Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#477 - 2014-03-25 00:03:01 UTC
Two step wrote:

That is simply not true. If anything the majority of people who actually live in w-space seem to agree that without probes, there should be a delay for K162s to show up.


Um, that 's a unstated major premise there. You're saying that 'the majority' wants a delay IF CCP opts for NOT making the sigs probably.

Although I concede you are right in this (I for one sure agree ) I think it is wrong to state that CCP will go that route and therefore claim that since that will not happen 'the majority' want delays. Sure, delays are better than the current state. But there are better solutions.

Consider this alternative: reverting back to the 'old' way. BUT have the sigs show up after a delay so that those people do not want to 'probe spam' do not have to. That is: sigs immediately probable and showing up automatically after a delay should you opt for not probing.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#478 - 2014-03-25 00:05:23 UTC
ORACOM wrote:
At the behest of my alliance mates, I am posting this for consideration by the WH community.

From what I have gathered, CCP are trying to address two possible scenarios - both of which currenlty equate to zero risk on the WH resident.
Scenario 1: Static WHS can be closed and not opened unless warped to.
Scenario 2: Inbound WHS spawn immediately showing up on probe scan window.

Both of which I think need to be addressed. I agree that WH space should have more risk, but I disagree with the timer bit, as it drastically favours the hunter more than the defender. Ideally, we need a solution that is well balanced AND can address both scenarios.
I would propose the following change ... but this will only address Scenario 2. I welcome anyone to post a solution that can addresses both.

Proposed Solution: Only allows WHS to show up on probe scanner window (if you have probes out) or if you are 14 AU from where the signature spawns (without probes).

Reason(s): It allows CCP to maintain their scanning changes - that make it easier for new pilots to identify and scan down signatures. I am also going to assume that this solution should be simple to implement (I am only guessing). And lastly, because it would affect every space equally (empire and null included). Under this solution, It would force people to warp around to each celestial in search of spawns. During escalations / farming - residents would have to use probes (pre odyssey) to maintain vigilance or devote pilots at each celestial outside of DSCAN range. Really, residents that dont bother to use either tactic - deserve to get podded. Attackers on the other hand would have the opportunity they need to pounce on targets ( all depending on the size of the wh). Those corps with smaller whs would have prime real-estate in this new world and perhaps this "enhancement" could drive more conflicts in wh space.



Fix Scenario 1 so that WH's only spawn when warped to: If this is possible, and not a huge source of work on CCP's side, then the only significant change would just be people critting their holes before jewing after rolling, instead of not warping it. Once again, this benefits the highest level WH groups (Such as myself) because while ganking lower levels of WH's with frigs or a few cruisers is perfectly viable, attempting to jump enough ships through an unknown crit c5/6 hole to take out a group results in either part of your ships not making through and leaving you stranded, or getting everyone through and being unable to get back.

Who's seriously going to bring enough t3's through a crit hole to attack a site running fleet without being able to get back through, and without enough mass to bring in caps if needed?

Fix Scenario 2 by enacting a weird distance based ability to see a sig: Heavily penalized holed based on planet location. Changes nothing except having another alt or two to cover all locations as opposed to the present situation. Also the typical issue with requiring continual distance checks from every player to an object or location.
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#479 - 2014-03-25 00:06:39 UTC
At least as far as I'm reading CCP Fozzies intentions, the delay isn't to allow free roaming of cloakies in WH systems, but to offset the way WH's spawn. They spawn when warp is initialized to them, not when on grid, not when they're jumped. The timer would start when warp is initialised to them. A short (60s) delay on the appearance of the K162 would equal this out. Go time it yourself next static, from when you hit warp to when you jump the wh. Time is a weird thing in Eve and I don't think people really realise how long it actually takes to do things.

A lot of confusion here would be solved by Fozzie returning to this thread an engaging with us on his thoughts for this more thoroughly.

Though the best solve would be to spawn the K162 when someone lands on grid or ideally, when they jump the WH. This equals everything out. Defenders don't get minutes head start to flee back to POS. Attackers actually feel like they have a chance to catch something.

Even better, remove the auto popping up sigs in the scan window and put it back to them only showing up via scan probes. I don't know where the hate came from for this system, it worked well since w-space began. It rewards people who skill into it, it rewards people who practice it, it rewards people who use it to protect themselves.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#480 - 2014-03-25 00:07:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Two step wrote:

That is simply not true. If anything the majority of people who actually live in w-space seem to agree that without probes, there should be a delay for K162s to show up.

Current Poll results from the poll posted a few pages back.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mYmEjYc3te6TcC768QW836haSXVour1RnKgxFBTe3o4/viewanalytics

Scanning Delay - Are you for or against adding a "delay" on scanning incoming WH's as proposed
"Against" - The current mechanic is fine, WH's being scannable when warped to by someone on the opposite end is fine. I do not want it changed. 95 Votes 76%