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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

First post First post First post
Author
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#441 - 2014-03-24 21:49:26 UTC
Two step wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Gnaw LF wrote:
No one said 5 minutes, there is no mention of 5 minutes anywhere. Right now we are talking about the delay in general, the details of the duration are not even being addressed. I think 2 minutes or less is still good enough of a change.


If by "no one," you mean "Two Step," then yes.


and if by "5 minutes", you mean "I didn't read the whole post", then yes.

All the worries about rolling holes before someone notices are kinda silly. Very few people sit around waiting for a K162 to open into them to gank the hole closing ships. Nealy all deaths are from people trying to close holes minutes or hours after they open. I wouldn't worry about being unable to gank people that are trying to close their hole, I worry about being unable to gank those people when they think they are "safe"


You are trying to fix an issue by creating another issue. Its like trying to fix a broken leg by breaking the other leg. Hey least you are in so much pain the other one does not hurt anymore.

We know what you want to address. It is wormhole carebears. We know what you want... is to get into fights without having people run to their POS's and logging off.

How the heck does this address that? Instilling more "fear" does not fix the issue. All this does is remove the concept of "the roam" and replace it with "the role".

Address the heart of the matter, which is giving people a reason to defend their wormhole, and giving attackers a reason to really attack a wormhole. You put a definitive value on saving a wormhole system when you are a defender, and attacking a wormhole system when you are an attacker and I guarantee you will have your fights. You will have your fights beyond fights.

We want to cause a defender to second guess exploding their ships and moving their stuff out of a hole, leaving just a husk of pos's and nothing of value inside. We want a defender to commit the ships to the fight. We want both the big fights and the small fights to happen. We need the viability of PVP to increase, not just create a method of randomly ganking people via some backwards undetectable supercloak. Before you even think about going down this road, you have to really know what the problems are with wormhole space, or what you come up with won't fix anything.

A lack of a gank mechanism is NOT the problem with wormhole space.

The lack of value of wormholes themselves...
The lack of value of defending a wormhole..
The lack of value in attacking and sieging a wormhole
The lack of ways of getting people to attack..
The lack of results once a siege is complete..
No ways of getting people to bring the fight
Greater impact of small gangs.

There has to be ways to get attackers to HURT defenders and commit them to the fight, not gank random pve carebears.

You call these "dungeons", well then make it so the dungeon has enough value to get people to want to take it, and to get others who want to fight for it.

NONE of this has EVER been addressed. Wormholes were a frontier type of system, that has been all but domesticated. People want it to be more of a frontier again, but they want it to matter at the same time. We tried the meet at sun with 10 ships crap.. it got boring.

Methods to commit the fight.
Methods for making the space have value, a worth, that causes people to make it their home and to defend it to the last man, and then some.
A reason to fight for a piece of wormhole space.

You do that, people will start the eviction train like nobody's business. People will want your stuff, and you will have to commit to fight for it, or die in a ball of fire.

And once you have your stuff, you will fight to keep it, but it has to have more value than just some pi goods and nano-ribbons.

If your concern is PVE carebears in wormholes, create a way to wipe out their PVE content, through PVP activities which would require them to PVP you to protect their PVE, vs just staying in their pos and watching you orbit it for an hour. Replace inactivity with activity, give the attackers a target that will get people out to fight (besides a POS reinforce mechanic which creates no content and does not hurt their PVE activities).

Yaay!!!!

Kirin Xaxos
Downloaded Bears
#442 - 2014-03-24 21:51:12 UTC
What is motivating this change? Since Odyssey has the activity in W-space gone down my a recordable amount? has there been less kills in w-space because of the change? can we see some kind of data?
Tyrant Scorn
#443 - 2014-03-24 21:51:14 UTC
Bane Nucleus wrote:
Tyrant Scorn wrote:

The way wormholes work right now is fair for the people who are on the ball and pay attention. It's fine, it's been fine in the past and people should learn to adept to small changes. I had no problems adjusting to the changes when they introduced the Overlay.


I find the changes made with Odyssey to be against what wormholes are all about. Free intel is NOT what most people want. They believe it should be worked for. Making sigs automatically show up on scan and making ore sites auto warp to's is NOT the way to go.

Please CCP, let wormholers work for intel. No freebies. No hand holding. This benefits both attackers and defenders.


I agree with you that the instant discovery of signatures was not the thing we wanted, but it's a small change and we, as hunters, still have the upper hand because we can scan down and locate targets in 10 seconds flat. I solo a lot, and I have no problems ganking people, even with the instant discovery of signatures and I understand that it might be harder for larger groups.

But introducing a delay is just stupid, remove the overlay, maybe... limiting our probes is a BIG NO !
Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
#444 - 2014-03-24 21:58:00 UTC
Nightingale Actault wrote:
I'm convinced no thought went into how this would affect the area of the game that this is proposed for. Unless this is a deliberate bait and switch I am worried, and can see why many wormholers are very adamant that no changes be made.

not no changes even the pve ppl like me are asking for a revert to b4 discovery scanner. and that opens me to more ganks but u know its balanced. If I dont put out probes I wont know. unlike now where I just have to switch between discovery and dscan for instant updates. I mean seriously if we are gonna make it so stuff dont show up on probes for no reason lets just remove dscan and probes all together you know cuz clicking that button is annoying. besides my pve fleet is combat fit I welcome visitors I just prefer that I be able to see them coming. its just dumb that someone could jump thru a fresh hole and probe all your system but u cant see the hole they came out of. But this great idea about nerfing probes is just crazy, lore breaking, and completely unbalanced. Im all for a full redo of how wh work but it needs to be a full redo not some kind of damage control from the devs saying oh we didn't break this there was an underlying problem in that you could actively gain this same information thru probes.....so basically actively probing is the same as having your ship just tell you on discovery scan in ccps eyes.
Fruitfly Three
Downloaded Bears
#445 - 2014-03-24 21:58:34 UTC
Instead of "forcing" Content on smaller groups why not Motivate them to fight? with a change like this i can only see it breeding more groups like surely your joking big punk groups with low skill and big ego's. if we want more content in wh space make it more beneficial for groups to work in smaller fleets and groups or live in many wh's instead of one. there is already game modes that cater to large fleets with low skill, lets not make WH space into null sec.
Skyleth Bergen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#446 - 2014-03-24 22:03:10 UTC
Since it seems like this is all about whether or not it should be easier for large pvp groups should be able gank players with less resources, maybe we should consider whether large corporations and alliances should be supportable in wormhole space. Is wormhole supposed to be a vast, lonely place to explore solo or in small groups or is simply a space for 100% capsuleer run space (as opposed to empire/npc control)?

Given that the idea 100% capsuleer controlled space is already accomplished by nullsec, I image the w-space niche as being the former. Take out capital escalations and players won't coalesce into the large groups who are able to fund their ganking through mining sleepers. The lack of groups whose primary activities are rolling holes, farming, and occasionally stomping entry level wormholers will totally preempt the relevance of the change suggested. Null sec is high risk - high reward for large groups of players. W-space can be high risk - high reward for single or smaller groups.

If there's a better idea of what role w-space should fill regarding play style, maybe it would be easier to design content.
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#447 - 2014-03-24 22:03:24 UTC
Tyrant Scorn wrote:

I agree with you that the instant discovery of signatures was not the thing we wanted, but it's a small change and we, as hunters, still have the upper hand because we can scan down and locate targets in 10 seconds flat. I solo a lot, and I have no problems ganking people, even with the instant discovery of signatures and I understand that it might be harder for larger groups.

But introducing a delay is just stupid, remove the overlay, maybe... limiting our probes is a BIG NO !

The oddesey changes wasn't a small change it was a big swing into careless pve.
And that is what needs to be fixed.
Probing needs to have an advantage.
If you probe you should see all in proberange.
If you don't probe there should be a delay.

No local in null sec would fix everything!

SambaSol
Veritas Theory
#448 - 2014-03-24 22:09:34 UTC
Just remembered a blog where someone had interviewed CCP and one of the devs was talking about how they wanted to create a universe where a trucker could come home and spend a few hours each evening hauling if he so chose and find it relaxing and enjoyable... What ever happened to that mindset?

Why is everyone so set on forcing every single player in the game to fall within the boundaries that THEY feel they should be in? Isn't EVE all about the freedom of choice and the ability to do whatever the hell you feel like? If I want to do THIS, why should I not be able to do so with some modicum of safety? What's wrong with being able to do that and it being a moderate risk, rather than knowing that if I get a connecting WH I'm guaranteed to lose the entire fleet?

Call me crazy, but PVP to me is NOT the most enjoyable part of the game. I love building stuff. I love the feeling of success from managing to survive a hot-drop or gatecamp due to skill, a good fit, or just plain luck. Joining in the gate camp and insta-popping industrials..... I find that incredibly boring.
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
#449 - 2014-03-24 22:10:19 UTC
From my perspective:

1. I think not having the signature be probable for any length of time is a bad idea.

I know us PVPers are salivating over the idea of being able to have a full two minute of being undetected to gank a site fleet--even I am. However, you have to remember, this means the person who has been opened into cannot take any defensive or aggressive action on the hole that has been opened into them--you can't scan it down quickly and warp a bubbler, a hole crashing group, a t3 defense fleet, or really anything there.

2. That said, I think delaying the discovery scanner is a brilliant idea.

The wormhole community (many of us) were up in arms over the discovery scanner's "instant sig" pop up because it basically gave away the presence of an incoming wormhole while requiring no active scanning work on the part of the person who was being rolled into. We've all wanted a delay for some time and I still think there should be one--but not for someone who is dedicated enough to methodically cycle probes over, and over, and over.

I mean, making something unprobable? That's just giving someone a magic invincibility button to either take action or roll away in peace. Keep in mind, this doesn't just favor gankers--it also favors PVE'ers who may be rolling with a minimal crew, and means they can roll their static without worrying about a response from the K162 side for x amount of time. I personally cannot support probe immunity, but I adamantly support a delay to the discovery scanner--many, many of us have wanted that.

Now, if it was like, 30 second delay on probes, and 1:30-2:00 minutes on the discovery scanner, that might be more reasonable, though I still disagree with it strongly. However, I think much of the community would be happy with that as a compromise.
Thead Enco
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#450 - 2014-03-24 22:12:41 UTC
Threadnaught consensus as of this hour:

Majority of wh bro's not agreeing with this change as fixes "a problem" that apprently didn't exsist before.

The few proponets agreeing with this change as it's addressing a major game design issue since release of Apocryphia due to the ability of tackling ratting dreads "In seige" is TOO hard and thus the "L33t pvper" needs a crutch.

No CCP response as of this time.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#451 - 2014-03-24 22:15:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Flidais Asagiri
Deeone wrote:

yeah because ccp broke discovery b4 that we had no problem ganking ppl. like I said b4 at least 70% of ppl farming didn't spam probes b4 and I seriously doubt they will start now........your right tho instead of dropping probes I should have to set drag bubbles and decloaking cans in every site I want to run(totally balanced to your just being able to roll a static and warp in on people b4 anyone even knows there is a new connection I mean that takes the same effort as setting 100s of bubbles and moving them all the time right?).......ppl complaining that spamming dscan and probes isn't fun......that's why it dont get done.....that's why its vigilance. you can have all the fun u want ignorance is bliss just dont cry when the cloaky t3s get u. there is no way that a site that ppl can come thru from a different system should not show up on probe scans. that's just crazy. all that needs to be done is to rollback discovery scan and most wh residents are back to happy and waiting for the pos changes......there is plenty of pvp in wh. we have a whole community that tells ppl they will evict you if you dont give good fights........I find it more disturbing however that you seem to think that larger entities need to be taking wh......this is like the last place u can get 0.0 style small gang warfare(20v20ish and smaller) and tbh most of us would like to keep it that way. its why we dont live in null. and one last point about "god forbid there be pvp in wh"......im gonna go out on a limb and say that PER CAPITIA WH has the most pvp in eve. If probes are nerfed like this ganks will spike then the pvp will fall off as everyone just moves out cuz the only profitable thing Is rolling your static looking for suckers. I guess that's how u get a big blue doughnut in wh space as well.......well played ccp well played


**** EDITED by FLIDAIS **** Always remember Rule 4.

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#452 - 2014-03-24 22:20:25 UTC
Skyleth Bergen wrote:
Since it seems like this is all about whether or not it should be easier for large pvp groups should be able gank players with less resources, maybe we should consider whether large corporations and alliances should be supportable in wormhole space. Is wormhole supposed to be a vast, lonely place to explore solo or in small groups or is simply a space for 100% capsuleer run space (as opposed to empire/npc control)?

Given that the idea 100% capsuleer controlled space is already accomplished by nullsec, I image the w-space niche as being the former. Take out capital escalations and players won't coalesce into the large groups who are able to fund their ganking through mining sleepers. The lack of groups whose primary activities are rolling holes, farming, and occasionally stomping entry level wormholers will totally preempt the relevance of the change suggested. Null sec is high risk - high reward for large groups of players. W-space can be high risk - high reward for single or smaller groups.

If there's a better idea of what role w-space should fill regarding play style, maybe it would be easier to design content.



Right from the design phase wormholes were never meant to be occupied, merely run.

That is why CCP still classifies them as "dungeons that are spawned". There meant to get a group of people, day trip 1 to 2 jumps down, then leave.

Living in them was faaaaaaaaaaaaaar from CCP's thought and mind (I believe they accidentally left the whole "anchor pos" flag on when they created wormhole space).

Wormhole's have basically not been touched for years (a bug fix here and there), until Odyssey and its scanner changes. It burned allot of wormhole space pvp down, but at that point most of wormhole space was known, people who were going to run sites knew how to without fear of retribution from others, etc..

People in the hole, prior to running sites, would crit their static, or roll it completely and not warp to the new static, leaving it closed and the entire hole isolated to everybody. The only method of reaching them was to roll into them or have a wandering hole show up. It did not matter eitherway because organized wormhole groups had probes out scanning for new connections. The PVE group KNEW when a new hole showed up, and either shipped for pvp, or stopped pve and went to their pos's.

The Odyssey change merely removed the need for the prober.

Due to these PVE tactics of locking hole control by critting or rolling the hole and no new one actually spawning, people began to resort to log-on traps to catch people (Now this was being done because the defending force of any largish organization had such an overwhelming force of capitals that trying to small gang them was essentially suicide). So the traps were done to get their PVE ships, giggle in space, and leave.

Again.. how does this suggested change change ANY of this? It does not create good content, it doesn't even create crappy content, it creates nearly pointless content, as nobody cares about a damn carebear (you blow them up, you take their stuff.. thats basically it). Content needs viable combat, not random ganks of carebears.. we'd all load up on tornado's and go to highsec for that.

How about this. Massing a wormhole should spawn more than 1 wormhole.

You halfmass a wormhole, a wandering shows up (that connects to another random wormhole), you crit your static and leave it crit... a second wandering wormhole shows up (that connects to another random wormhole).

So you role your static, you get 2 more wandering wormholes, + a new static.

There you go, you remove the PVE method of hole control. Ontop of that, you give PVP people a method of getting more connecting wormholes by rolling their own hole.

This STILL does not get anybody to commit to a fight though.

Yaay!!!!

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#453 - 2014-03-24 22:21:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Two step
SambaSol wrote:
Just remembered a blog where someone had interviewed CCP and one of the devs was talking about how they wanted to create a universe where a trucker could come home and spend a few hours each evening hauling if he so chose and find it relaxing and enjoyable... What ever happened to that mindset?

Why is everyone so set on forcing every single player in the game to fall within the boundaries that THEY feel they should be in? Isn't EVE all about the freedom of choice and the ability to do whatever the hell you feel like? If I want to do THIS, why should I not be able to do so with some modicum of safety? What's wrong with being able to do that and it being a moderate risk, rather than knowing that if I get a connecting WH I'm guaranteed to lose the entire fleet?

Call me crazy, but PVP to me is NOT the most enjoyable part of the game. I love building stuff. I love the feeling of success from managing to survive a hot-drop or gatecamp due to skill, a good fit, or just plain luck. Joining in the gate camp and insta-popping industrials..... I find that incredibly boring.


If you don't like PVP, highsec is ----> that way. Actually, you might want to look into other games, as EVE is a PVP game, even in highsec.

You shouldn't have *any* safety in w-space, that is the whole freaking point of w-space.


Thead Enco wrote:
Threadnaught consensus as of this hour:

Majority of wh bro's not agreeing with this change as fixes "a problem" that apprently didn't exsist before.

The few proponets agreeing with this change as it's addressing a major game design issue since release of Apocryphia due to the ability of tackling ratting dreads "In seige" is TOO hard and thus the "L33t pvper" needs a crutch.

No CCP response as of this time.


That is simply not true. If anything the majority of people who actually live in w-space seem to agree that without probes, there should be a delay for K162s to show up.

Also, I don't think you get to use the phrase "wh bro's" seeing as I can find no evidence at all that you have ever stepped foot in a wormhole. Perhaps you ought to leave the discussion to those that spend time in w-space?

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Abon Riff
Catskull Horizons
Grimskulls
#454 - 2014-03-24 22:24:30 UTC
I would only wish to see this implemented if the local was removed from Null Sec.

I have always advocated vigilance when taking part in any WH activity, especially with regard to D-scan and probe scanner (And overlay). I have seen the consequences of not being vigialnt, and also been on the other end or punishing the non vigilant.

I imagine that people have asked for this as they believe that WH dwellers make to much money. If this is you beef, live in a wormhole.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#455 - 2014-03-24 22:30:16 UTC
Two step wrote:

That is simply not true. If anything the majority of people who actually live in w-space seem to agree that without probes, there should be a delay for K162s to show up.



Forget the delay part. Without probes, NO sig should show up. Want to find a sig? Drop probes.

No trolling please

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#456 - 2014-03-24 22:32:01 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:

Right from the design phase wormholes were never meant to be occupied, merely run.

That is why CCP still classifies them as "dungeons that are spawned". There meant to get a group of people, day trip 1 to 2 jumps down, then leave.

Living in them was faaaaaaaaaaaaaar from CCP's thought and mind (I believe they accidentally left the whole "anchor pos" flag on when they created wormhole space).

Wormhole's have basically not been touched for years (a bug fix here and there), until Odyssey and its scanner changes. It burned allot of wormhole space pvp down, but at that point most of wormhole space was known, people who were going to run sites knew how to without fear of retribution from others, etc..


Wrong on occupied.

"Dungeons" refers to the signatures that you scan down. It is a techincal term, because that is what they are called in the code. It has nothing at all to do with any sort of intentions.

Wrong on this magical "anchor POS flag", no such flag ever existed. Talk to the people that designed w-space, they didn't expect the *level* of occupation, or the permanence of occupation, but they did think people would be putting up POSes and living in w-space full time.

Wormhole space has had several very important changes, from fixing Sleeper neuts which *drastically* changed PVE, to all of the probe changes that pre-date Odyssey. Just because you weren't there, or don't remember the changes doesn't mean they didn't happen, and they *greatly* changed w-space.

Phoenix Jones wrote:

People in the hole, prior to running sites, would crit their static, or roll it completely and not warp to the new static, leaving it closed and the entire hole isolated to everybody. The only method of reaching them was to roll into them or have a wandering hole show up. It did not matter eitherway because organized wormhole groups had probes out scanning for new connections. The PVE group KNEW when a new hole showed up, and either shipped for pvp, or stopped pve and went to their pos's.

The Odyssey change merely removed the need for the prober.

Due to these PVE tactics of locking hole control by critting or rolling the hole and no new one actually spawning, people began to resort to log-on traps to catch people (Now this was being done because the defending force of any largish organization had such an overwhelming force of capitals that trying to small gang them was essentially suicide). So the traps were done to get their PVE ships, giggle in space, and leave.

Again.. how does this suggested change change ANY of this? It does not create good content, it doesn't even create crappy content, it creates nearly pointless content, as nobody cares about a damn carebear (you blow them up, you take their stuff.. thats basically it). Content needs viable combat, not random ganks of carebears.. we'd all load up on tornado's and go to highsec for that.

How about this. Massing a wormhole should spawn more than 1 wormhole.

You halfmass a wormhole, a wandering shows up (that connects to another random wormhole), you crit your static and leave it crit... a second wandering wormhole shows up (that connects to another random wormhole).

So you role your static, you get 2 more wandering wormholes, + a new static.

There you go, you remove the PVE method of hole control. Ontop of that, you give PVP people a method of getting more connecting wormholes by rolling their own hole.

This STILL does not get anybody to commit to a fight though.


You still don't get it, do you? First of all, blowing up people is one of the most important parts of living in w-space, otherwise we might as well be in highsec running incursions. Secondly, blowing people up directly effects *everyone's* income. If fewer farmers are out there, nanoribbon prices go up, which helps everyone who does any PVE at all in w-space.

PVE in w-space shouldn't be safe, at all, ever. You should *always* be watching over your shoulder, and people should always be able to mess with people trying to make ISK. EVE is a game about player interaction, and causing more interaction causes more fun to be had by all. Perhaps you get ganked and decide to get your revenge. Perhaps you make friends with the people that ganked you. Perhaps you pay them to leave them alone. Perhaps you just die and go back to highsec. All of those are good interactions, and all of those are what EVE is about.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Abon Riff
Catskull Horizons
Grimskulls
#457 - 2014-03-24 22:33:23 UTC
Faxanadu Phantasm wrote:
Something else I'd like to comment on

To the folks who would like to open up options to increase the ease of ganking other WH bros' PVE activity...

We're all out in WH space for the same reasons... we're willing to accept the risk, and invest the required effort and vigilance to make living there viable. That means watching Dscan and probing.

If you want to add more eggs for us to juggle to make living in WH harder, thats fine but at least give us the option to exert that added vigilance. The point i think is to be able to prey on people who leave themselves open to it.

Thats why i think the nullbears should be the real targets, because theyre traditionally complacent deep in their cozy null regions buffered by all their intel channels so they can fap and mine/rat in peace right? Theyre the targets who are most likely to forgo exerting vigilance because theyre not as hardened as us WH bros who are accustom to putting in that extra effort.

On the same note, I think youll find that thats why WH pilots may be slightly more difficult to gank because they're used to having to pay attention.


I agree with all you say. Could not have put it better myself.
Sarah Flinnley
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#458 - 2014-03-24 22:35:16 UTC
I've not read through all the suggestions, but the easiest solution to me would be that the WH links get created when the WH are populated in local space vs when someone warps to it. AKA: WH pops in system A after a group rolls a hole. The other end shows up wherever it gets connected to. Shows on D-Scan and everything. Fine. Count down timer also gets started for the hole. Thus, the hole showing up on D-Scan has nothing at all to do with incoming players and the D-scanner's information becomes nothing to write home about.
Jill Chastot
Black Water Oasis
#459 - 2014-03-24 22:48:49 UTC
Gnaw LF wrote:
[quote=Tyrant Scorn]
Ok I am going to explain it to you like I would to a five year old. CCP has stated time and time before that there should be NO SAFE or fair spot in EvE. Not even in high sec, there should be risk and reward everywhere. W-Space is at the top of that risk-reward pyramid, it should be very dangerous and very profitable. However, due to the CONSTANT skill point creep of the player base it got to the point that if you collapse all connections and drop probes then it becomes fairly safe. Understand?


Whats wrong with a fair game? You'd rather imbalance?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."

Gustava Risalo
Sons of Sarah Kerrigan
#460 - 2014-03-24 22:50:23 UTC
Gnaw LF wrote:
Gustava Risalo wrote:
There is one inherent problem with all of this hurf blurf about Risk vs reward. You gain the ability to roll holes unannounced until you find a nice target you can kill then you have the suprise factor on your side for killing them.




Where is your risk?

You get to pick your targets so you aren't going to take on anything your gang can't handle. You aren't going to roll holes without having the majority of your fleet on standby and have a fairly accurate idea of fleet composition. So where is your risk? You get nothing but the rewards of the kills and the fact that you can make even more isk when you run sites.

Also don't feed me the bs about how you will engange anything or you won't pick a fight you won't win. Thats a load of garbage.



Yeah, pvpers never risk their ships by warping into a sleeper site full without full knowledge of their opponent. When you try to kill someone in sleeper site you don't know how many people they have logged off in their system, you don't know how many capital ships they can bring in on a moments notice. Yes, ganks will still happen but to say that pvp oriented players don't have a risk when they initiate a fight is ridiculous.



This is amazing logic. Holy crap lets take a moment to appreciate this.

You are Verge of Collapse amongst the most well known pvp entities in wormholes. You claim that you risk that some fleet you gank might just have enough people logged off waiting for you to jump them without the slightest hint or warning it would happen to you? Maybe I have spent too much time sizing up my enemy but every time I jump into a wormhole and see hostiles, I check their corp/alliance their killboard, and some limited history before making decisions.

Are you telling me that one of the most well known and bigger pvp groups in w-space doesn't do some active intel gathering of someone they might potentially gank before trying to kill them?
http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=57587

Let me guess that BR was a surprise oh we risked a lot to get a few kills we didn't know what they would log on?

Smell that? Yep its bull ****. Oh surprise coming from you.

You can have a full amount of intel gathered before you start a fight regardless of log off traps. If you choose not to gather intelligence its your own fault you lose ships. Don't come at me with your weak arguments. What is ridiculous is that ccp is even considering giving any entity any sort of intel advantage from active intel gathering sources just so you can have your gank and call it f pvp. Take your whiny elitist bull**** and shove it straight where the sun don' t shine.