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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1501 - 2014-03-24 18:24:43 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Wow, the amount of butthurt from all the people that have been using an obviously broken/abused mechanic for years is mind-boggling.

Compression has been a blight on the face of nulsec industry for years. I'm glad to see it getting nerfed.

As for scrapmetal reprocessing, I agree that people looting and reprocessing is going to take a hit. Rather than a blanket nerf, I would like to see meta-level taken into account when reprocessing stuff. 50% for meta 0, and +2.5% more per meta level. This would ensure that player-built meta 0 items still get the nerf bat, while NPC-spawned meta items are still more valuable, without being nerfed into the ground.

Alternatively, why not just keep current reproc rates for meta 1 and higher, while setting meta 0 at 50%?

Miners should be rejoicing. With mineral compression and reprocessing nerfed, there will be more demand for compressed ores, especially Veldspar and Scordite. Nulsec miners (they exist) will now have a good reason to mine Spodumain. This means a net buff for ores and mining. A Compression Array can easily fit on a small POS. If you have a Rorqual, it will still work, plus the benefit of mining links.

Mine ore. Haul ore to POS. Compress ore. Haul compressed ore to Station. Sell compressed ore. How much easier do you want it to be?

Mad that you have to actually train skills to get that awesome refine rate? Boo-hoo. HTFU. Your days of free brats and beer at the neighbor's BBQ are over.



Problem is u don't need to skill up to refine, free beer is still flowing!
A max skilled char at a station gets 72.4
A fresh char at a pos gets 75
Elfi Wolfe
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1502 - 2014-03-24 18:49:18 UTC
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AudGQtGeO0GpdDMyVDdDc2tvR3lBa0IzVGdQdUFYMXc&usp=docslist_api
Added pages for the summer changes.

Pages starting with summer2014 have the upcoming changes.

If you want to edit the skills or mining, copy to your own Google docs and then you can change data.

The ISK/m3 Ore price depends on items for sale in Jita, if there is no ore sold, that entry will be 0.

"Please point to the place on the doll where the carebear touched you."

Machiko Agota
Magota Industries
#1503 - 2014-03-24 19:33:06 UTC
Lots of changes and I like them! I think the Ore/Ice Buff and compression array will make my life much easier Big smile. But the Rorqual is going to need some serious love; otherwise what's it purpose (other than Jump Clones).

Photon Ceray
Palmyra Universal Enterprise
#1504 - 2014-03-24 20:34:47 UTC
Sounds good, HOWEVER!

The new UI might need time to be worked on, but it seems you have done all the work on the new reprocessing processes and skills,

why wait to implement that till summer?

This is a benefit that can be made available to the players now, holding it off just to have more content for summer expansion sounds like a lame idea to me.
pyronatic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1505 - 2014-03-24 20:49:35 UTC
Yay rig prices are gonna go up even more -_- , Seriously just leave it where it is.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1506 - 2014-03-24 20:50:45 UTC
Harah Noud wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Wow, the amount of butthurt from all the people that have been using an obviously broken/abused mechanic for years is mind-boggling.

Compression has been a blight on the face of nulsec industry for years. I'm glad to see it getting nerfed.

As for scrapmetal reprocessing, I agree that people looting and reprocessing is going to take a hit. Rather than a blanket nerf, I would like to see meta-level taken into account when reprocessing stuff. 50% for meta 0, and +2.5% more per meta level. This would ensure that player-built meta 0 items still get the nerf bat, while NPC-spawned meta items are still more valuable, without being nerfed into the ground.

Alternatively, why not just keep current reproc rates for meta 1 and higher, while setting meta 0 at 50%?

Miners should be rejoicing. With mineral compression and reprocessing nerfed, there will be more demand for compressed ores, especially Veldspar and Scordite. Nulsec miners (they exist) will now have a good reason to mine Spodumain. This means a net buff for ores and mining. A Compression Array can easily fit on a small POS. If you have a Rorqual, it will still work, plus the benefit of mining links.

Mine ore. Haul ore to POS. Compress ore. Haul compressed ore to Station. Sell compressed ore. How much easier do you want it to be?

Mad that you have to actually train skills to get that awesome refine rate? Boo-hoo. HTFU. Your days of free brats and beer at the neighbor's BBQ are over.



Problem is u don't need to skill up to refine, free beer is still flowing!
A max skilled char at a station gets 72.4
A fresh char at a pos gets 75


Hmm... you're right. Though I wouldn't call a POS free, even a small one. And I don't think an unskilled player should get a better yield out of a POS array that a fully-skilled player does out of a station. I suppose the offset is to make operating the POS just as cost effective as using station services.

IMO Refining Arrays should take player skill into account. Perhaps as some have guessed, old POS code is at fault here.


http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#1507 - 2014-03-24 21:00:09 UTC
Well there's no reason to stay subscribed for just skills - CCP's now established a track record of obsoleting a skill set every 6 months. Why waste the money?
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1508 - 2014-03-24 21:08:16 UTC
pyronatic wrote:
Yay rig prices are gonna go up even more -_- , Seriously just leave it where it is.

What? Nevermind that the new hacking sites have sent rig prices crashing to historic lows; this change does not affect salvage at all, only minerals being returned from refining mission/anom loot.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1509 - 2014-03-24 21:29:17 UTC
is this a good time to ask that we can show info on ore and see the mineral yields per batch of ore?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Brent zhal
For the Love of Evil
#1510 - 2014-03-24 21:31:57 UTC
So if I understand correctly and my math is right:

After summer patch 1 compressed arkonor yields

69050 Tritanium
1147 Zydrine
2300 Megacyte

So when I refine that single compressed block of arkonor at a POS i should get:

69050*0.781 = 53928~ Tritanium
1147*0.781= 896~ Zydrine
2300*0.781= 1796~ Megacyte


Is this correct?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1511 - 2014-03-24 21:47:54 UTC
Brent zhal wrote:
So if I understand correctly and my math is right:

After summer patch 1 compressed arkonor yields

69050 Tritanium
1147 Zydrine
2300 Megacyte

So when I refine that single compressed block of arkonor at a POS i should get:

69050*0.781 = 53928~ Tritanium
1147*0.781= 896~ Zydrine
2300*0.781= 1796~ Megacyte


Is this correct?


unless the per batch yield is improved like i think they will be.

think the idea is to have u yield approx the same now. but with uber skills and equipment u get even better yield...

no?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1512 - 2014-03-24 21:48:35 UTC
Brent zhal wrote:
So if I understand correctly and my math is right:

After summer patch 1 compressed arkonor yields

69050 Tritanium
1147 Zydrine
2300 Megacyte

So when I refine that single compressed block of arkonor at a POS i should get:

69050*0.781 = 53928~ Tritanium
1147*0.781= 896~ Zydrine
2300*0.781= 1796~ Megacyte


Is this correct?


Max skills plus implant at an NPC station gives u 72.4%
No skills or implants at POS in high sec gives u 75.3% , in low sec at a POS u get 78.1%
In null sec full skills and implants and in a fully upgraded minmatar station u ll get 86.8
Darkblad
Doomheim
#1513 - 2014-03-24 21:56:10 UTC
Brent zhal wrote:
So if I understand correctly and my math is right:

After summer patch 1 compressed arkonor yields

69050 Tritanium
1147 Zydrine
2300 Megacyte

So when I refine that single compressed block of arkonor at a POS i should get:

69050*0.781 = 53928~ Tritanium
1147*0.781= 896~ Zydrine
2300*0.781= 1796~ Megacyte


Is this correct?
Correct for an Intensive Refining Array. Though the minerals before reprocessing in the devblog are calculated in a way that doesn't take into consideration that one would get more minerals when reprocessing the raw ore, like stated above.

NPEISDRIP

Adunh Slavy
#1514 - 2014-03-24 22:07:38 UTC
CCP, are you really going to allow minerals to be created, above and beyond what is contained in ore?

Your formulas show rates of above 100%. Is 100% the hard limit, or are you just going to be silly and poof minerals out of thin air and harm the economy?

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1515 - 2014-03-24 22:37:43 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
CCP, are you really going to allow minerals to be created, above and beyond what is contained in ore?

Your formulas show rates of above 100%. Is 100% the hard limit, or are you just going to be silly and poof minerals out of thin air and harm the economy?

Those are relative percentages. They're relative to today's yields. Their plan is to adjust the amount of minerals inside of ore to be much higher than they are today, but lowering the maximum efficiency of player refines so they only get a percentage of that "ideal" refine. For highsec 50% stations, all this math is a wash; with all fives in the relevant reprocessing skills and the +4% implant, you'll get the same amount of minerals you do today.

This is being done to allow pos refineries and nullsec outposts to enjoy a bonus refine amount, as well as provide room for tweaking ore mineral composition upwards or downwards without having a hard cap on the upper amount.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Inspiration
#1516 - 2014-03-24 23:07:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Harah Noud wrote:
lol, stop with the motive and conspiracy. i m stating what i support up front!!
all what i am saying is an untrained unskilled char shouldn't be able to outperform a skilled char.

now u ignored all what i said about CCP's philosophy for this change. i think this is the key issue here. not what you think, or what you think my true motives are :D

what about the unskilled VS skilled? u didnt specify what was the career the first is better at?

u keep bring corp into this
fine
what about a corp that want to be better at refining what can it do? recruit skilled char? encourage its pilot to skill up? what?
they can just get a POS and that s it. no skill route to progress LIKE WHAT CCP SAID this whole change is about! a point that you keep ignoring!

u speak of safety and corp hard work up front? what hard work ? a POS takes like 30 min to set up? skilling a char takes months . a corp encouraging ppl to skill, and giving them the resources take months

let me recapp:
u just want an easy solution to refining for char and for corps. rendering all skills irrelevant WHICH GOES aginst what CCP said this whole damn change is about!!!


An unskilled character cannot outperform a skilled one doing the same thing, i already wrote that. The skilled char has more options and is more flexible. You just cherry picked one unlikely and extreme and unequal situation and start drawing far stretching conclusions from that.

A corp requires quite some skill, time and investment in order to be able to anchor a POS in high sec. You talk as if its essentially, the act of buying and anchoring one. If you base your balancing on this, you would be wrong again.

Refining skills are irrelevant in just one situation, a situation that has to be created and cost a lot of effort to achieve. More so then getting personal standing with a corporation and training some skills. Corp standing with a faction is hard to get and keep and takes time.

I am serious!

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1517 - 2014-03-24 23:22:10 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
CCP, are you really going to allow minerals to be created, above and beyond what is contained in ore?

Your formulas show rates of above 100%. Is 100% the hard limit, or are you just going to be silly and poof minerals out of thin air and harm the economy?

Yes, they are currently allowing minerals to poof out of thin air with their proposed change. In order to actually do this change without doing that, they would have to run a script to auto convert all ore reserves into minerals at some predefined (probably 100% refining) rate when they take the server down for the update.
So everyone starts from 0 on the ore and has to mine it.

Otherwise they give free minerals to Null Sec. & pretty much only null sec, the high sec margins aren't overall significant.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1518 - 2014-03-24 23:25:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
I think that compression has to be moved into station, and here is why: http://i.imgur.com/OzN40XM.png
What you're looking at is a calculation of approximately one jump freighter full of compressed minerals: a decent amount, but not a huge amount of minerals: sufficient to build a good number of battleships or the like or do an initial seed of the market. Nothing crazy though: you certainly couldn't build a titan with that.

That one jump freighter of minerals requires forty eight round trips in a freighter (at least, I just eyeballed it) to get the ore to a pos for compression. That's insane: that's an obscene amount of work even if all the ore is already located in the system itself. It's far, far more than you need right now (as the ore is bulkier than the minerals you'd haul before to compress).

That's a ludicrous amount of insanely boring grunt work - that you can't even pay someone else to courier because it has to go to a pos. It doesn't add any content for anyone else: a freighter warping to and from a station is invulnerable as long as they can be bothered to dock up if someone tries to agress their freighter. It just adds a lot of unneeded human misery to the game that can't be fun for anyone.

I think there's value in maintaining pos as a possibility (or even an improvement): let people compress with the bpos in station, requiring them to waste slots on their alts and in the station, and making it take time. That will encourage people to use a pos (or put one into their routine, unloading into the pos instead of a station) but allows people to work with ore that someone's put on the market in a way that isn't pointlessly cruel to the poor sucker who does forty eight round trips in a charon and pretends he's having fun in a video game.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1519 - 2014-03-24 23:35:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Weaselior wrote:
I think that compression has to be moved into station, and here is why: http://i.imgur.com/OzN40XM.png
What you're looking at is a calculation of approximately one jump freighter full of compressed minerals: a decent amount, but not a huge amount of minerals: sufficient to build a good number of battleships or the like or do an initial seed of the market. Nothing crazy though: you certainly couldn't build a titan with that.

That one jump freighter of minerals requires forty eight round trips in a freighter (at least, I just eyeballed it) to get the ore to a pos for compression. That's insane: that's an obscene amount of work even if all the ore is already located in the system itself. It's far, far more than you need right now (as the ore is bulkier than the minerals you'd haul before to compress).

That's a ludicrous amount of insanely boring grunt work - that you can't even pay someone else to courier because it has to go to a pos. It doesn't add any content for anyone else: a freighter warping to and from a station is invulnerable as long as they can be bothered to dock up if someone tries to agress their freighter. It just adds a lot of unneeded human misery to the game that can't be fun for anyone.

I think there's value in maintaining pos as a possibility (or even an improvement): let people compress with the bpos in station, requiring them to waste slots on their alts and in the station, and making it take time. That will encourage people to use a pos (or put one into their routine, unloading into the pos instead of a station) but allows people to work with ore that someone's put on the market in a way that isn't pointlessly cruel to the poor sucker who does forty eight round trips in a charon and pretends he's having fun in a video game.


This vividly illustrates a point I've been bringing up now and again -- compression is so key to the new mining economy that it needs to be available in stations. I agree that there should be some cost or time consideration for using the "station compression service" as well, to keep a POS compression array a competitive option.

edit: I guess I should shotgun out some suggestions to keep this post from being too much of a "me too!" post. I'm not really sure about the viability of any of these; they're unfiltered, straight from my brain into a post.

* Keep compression BPOs, use standard industrial lines (and remove skill requirements for these BPOs, if they even have them (not sure))
* Charge a fee for station compression
* Make new "compression" RAM lines that don't require skills
* Require a skill for compressing ore in a station, but don't require it for POS

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
#1520 - 2014-03-25 00:16:50 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Harah Noud wrote:
lol, stop with the motive and conspiracy. i m stating what i support up front!!
all what i am saying is an untrained unskilled char shouldn't be able to outperform a skilled char.

now u ignored all what i said about CCP's philosophy for this change. i think this is the key issue here. not what you think, or what you think my true motives are :D

what about the unskilled VS skilled? u didnt specify what was the career the first is better at?

u keep bring corp into this
fine
what about a corp that want to be better at refining what can it do? recruit skilled char? encourage its pilot to skill up? what?
they can just get a POS and that s it. no skill route to progress LIKE WHAT CCP SAID this whole change is about! a point that you keep ignoring!

u speak of safety and corp hard work up front? what hard work ? a POS takes like 30 min to set up? skilling a char takes months . a corp encouraging ppl to skill, and giving them the resources take months

let me recapp:
u just want an easy solution to refining for char and for corps. rendering all skills irrelevant WHICH GOES aginst what CCP said this whole damn change is about!!!


An unskilled character cannot outperform a skilled one doing the same thing, i already wrote that. The skilled char has more options and is more flexible. You just cherry picked one unlikely and extreme and unequal situation and start drawing far stretching conclusions from that.

A corp requires quite some skill, time and investment in order to be able to anchor a POS in high sec. You talk as if its essentially, the act of buying and anchoring one. If you base your balancing on this, you would be wrong again.

Refining skills are irrelevant in just one situation, a situation that has to be created and cost a lot of effort to achieve. More so then getting personal standing with a corporation and training some skills. Corp standing with a faction is hard to get and keep and takes time.

You can buy a corp with standings for 100 million. Player skill should matter more than a post module.