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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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Hedge Fox
Apolitical
#381 - 2014-03-24 18:23:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Hedge Fox
Ravcharas wrote:
Hedge Fox wrote:
CCP Development Plan: Focus on ISK-sink creation. We need to blow up more ISK so we can sell more PLEX. Pirate

How is this an isk sink?


When ships blow up, ISK vanishes in varying quantities.
Some may get looted or salvaged, but a percentage of it is removed from circulation entirely. Thus, ISK Sink.

Enabling more mechanics making defensive strategies less effective, would in affect, indirectly consequent in more ships lost, thus adding to the ISK sinks.

Much like making interceptors immune to bubbles and increasing warp speeds for them, makes them prime hunters in 0.0 to catch ratters. More death, more money for CCP.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#382 - 2014-03-24 18:27:38 UTC
Schwa Nuts wrote:
Two step wrote:
No, the hilarious part is the nullsec farmers coming out and complaining about losing ships to logoff gangs.



You don't know anything about me and are making bad assumptions based off my corp tag. I am not complaining, just stating fact to counter to the argument that it is "risk-free farming."

Additionally, while I have great respect for the big w-space pvp alliances, it is quite obvious that such a change benefits them more than anyone else. Those that suggest this change would lower w-space population are right.


I'm inclined to agree. This is a power shift in the wrong way. It should not be (roll hole, find target, gank pve wimp with gang, roll hole, find target, gank...).

This is blowing the whole concept of a roam if all you do is sit and roll holes (it ain't exploration, you just turn wormhole space into the WOW Dungeon Group Finder).

If you want combat, you have to make wormhole space itself have a value. At that point, people will want to TAKE YOUR WORMHOLE away. It sucks to say that what wormhole space needs is a structure grind, but it does, but that Structure Grind has to provide an actual point and/or value (right now, the only reason to grind pos's is to evict people). This is a completely different topic though.

We want combat and a purpose. Wormholes need a value, once it has that, there is no real need to worry about signature delays, auto cloaking holes, because people will come in to fight or to cause fights.

Yaay!!!!
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#383 - 2014-03-24 18:42:14 UTC
Hedge Fox wrote:
Ravcharas wrote:
Hedge Fox wrote:
CCP Development Plan: Focus on ISK-sink creation. We need to blow up more ISK so we can sell more PLEX. Pirate

How is this an isk sink?


When ships blow up, ISK vanishes in varying quantities.
Some may get looted or salvaged, but a percentage of it is removed from circulation entirely. Thus, ISK Sink.

Enabling more mechanics making defensive strategies less effective, would in affect, indirectly consequent in more ships lost, thus adding to the ISK sinks.

Much like making interceptors immune to bubbles and increasing warp speeds for them, makes them prime hunters in 0.0 to catch ratters. More death, more money for CCP.

Ships being blown up are not an isk sink. They are isk faucets, because of insurance payouts.
Von Keigai
#384 - 2014-03-24 18:45:52 UTC
SambaSol wrote:
the biggest thing I hate about WH PVP is trying to get my pod back into the WH when I lose...

Yes. And they should fix it by giving us a medical clone bay thingie to put on POSes. But that's another conversation.

vonkeigai.blogspot.com
Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#385 - 2014-03-24 18:46:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Bjurn Akely
Phoenix Jones wrote:

I'm inclined to agree. This is a power shift in the wrong way. It should not be (roll hole, find target, gank pve wimp with gang, roll hole, find target, gank...).


This.

This is what will happen should a delay be implemented.

I'm all for PvP, small scale is the way I roll. But I find the thrill of the chase quite a big part of the whole experience. Sneaking in, probing ships down, waiting for the right opportunity... It's a game within the game.

A delay of sigs will just mean the hunter will have to hurry. I see little fun in that.

Also, why should higher classes have higher delays, should delays be implemented? Does it take longer to probe/scan down capitals? Does it take longer to jump into a carrier than a HAC? Or is it just to be nice to the *noobs' in the lower class holes?

Do you guys do realize that class of hole you live in is more a choice of where you want to liver rather than living in as high of a class you can? I've seen big alliances with over ten POS in a class 2. There are class 1's with several capitals in them.
Tyrant Scorn
#386 - 2014-03-24 18:57:40 UTC
Ali Aras wrote:
So having talked to several other people about this, I'm convinced of the necessity for the change (and of the shittiness of spamming probes). That said, there are still issues with it, so I want to instead echo a suggestion I heard elsewhere of a mass/time delay on incoming k162s instead of a pure time delay. That is, a k162 will not show on probes or system scanners for either x seconds pass or y grams of ship transit, where x is on the order of 120 or 180 or so, and y is on the order of 2-3 covops worth of mass. These values should be a percentage of the mass/time limits on the wormhole itself, to scale them by wormhole class and allow for some logical consistency to the mechanic (after all, the invisibility is like a little microcosm of the mother wormhole's lifetime).

A mass/time delay would resolve the following issues a time-only delay leaves unsolved:

C1-4 residents can no longer be ganked by a fleet without being able to see the fleet or their incoming signature. In C1-4 space, a cloaky t3 gang can cause serious issues for a farming fleet, particularly on the lower side of that range. Should a K162 spawn off d-scan from where the fleet is, the defenders would have literally no warning. Even on d-scan, the available time to detect a cloaky fleet's existence is short, and spamming d-scan is no more fun than spamming probes.

Carebears can't roll their holes in perfect safety. If a hole is time-limited only, some carebears good with rolling ships can hop in and out inside the timer, and the hungry PvPers they've inadvertently rolled into have no opportunity to attempt a gank or slip a scanning alt through.

It maintains the freedom from probe spamming and increased risk to the defenders (who are now alerted when the fleet is jumping in, not when the scout first warps to the hole) without adverse side effects introduced by the pure delay, and the complexity issues fit easily with the rest of wormhole space mechanics.


I am sorry Ali but I don't know who you talked to but I seriously doubt you've seriously considered all options. The change is going to be terrible and only favors PvP. if CCP only wants to favor PvP, they should never have introduced PvE in wormholes in the first place but the fact is that it's there in large bulks.

I am sorely disappointed by the post you just made...

The Tyrant King

YouTube | Twitter | Twitch
AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#387 - 2014-03-24 19:10:36 UTC
Tyrant Scorn wrote:


I am sorely disappointed by the post you just made...



Drama much?

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#388 - 2014-03-24 19:14:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
1. Remove Discovery Scanner automagical sig pop-up and let probes pick up as usual.
2. Add J-space ESS with these features:
- Provides automagical sig pop-up exactly as now.
- Does not work if a ship is within x km radius (so no sitting on it). Or just leave bubble in place.
- Creates some tags for [insert faction, CONCORD, whatever] from Sleepers.
- Expensive and limited life span. Get rid of upgrade concept so it is a single use deployable.

This would allow ratters to avoid the clicks of probe/dscan spam, provide opportunity for combat and traps on the deployable, and reward scouting activity (get the tags).

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#389 - 2014-03-24 19:29:46 UTC
Zappity wrote:
1. Remove Discovery Scanner automagical sig pop-up and let probes pick up as usual.
2. Add J-space ESS with these features:
- Provides automagical sig pop-up exactly as now.
- Does not work if a ship is within x km radius (so no sitting on it). Or just leave bubble in place.
- Creates some tags for [insert faction, CONCORD, whatever] from Sleepers.
- Expensive and limited life span. Get rid of upgrade concept so it is a single use deployable.

This would allow ratters to avoid the clicks of probe/dscan spam, provide opportunity for combat and traps on the deployable, and reward scouting activity (get the tags).


Then I assume it also warp scrams whoever is near it, requires time to access, and broadcasts the identity of everyone who approaches it?
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#390 - 2014-03-24 19:33:04 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Zappity wrote:
1. Remove Discovery Scanner automagical sig pop-up and let probes pick up as usual.
2. Add J-space ESS with these features:
- Provides automagical sig pop-up exactly as now.
- Does not work if a ship is within x km radius (so no sitting on it). Or just leave bubble in place.
- Creates some tags for [insert faction, CONCORD, whatever] from Sleepers.
- Expensive and limited life span. Get rid of upgrade concept so it is a single use deployable.

This would allow ratters to avoid the clicks of probe/dscan spam, provide opportunity for combat and traps on the deployable, and reward scouting activity (get the tags).


Then I assume it also warp scrams whoever is near it, requires time to access, and broadcasts the identity of everyone who approaches it?

You can work out the details. :) I don't do PvE but I do hate clicks enormously.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#391 - 2014-03-24 19:33:45 UTC
Zappity wrote:
1. Remove Discovery Scanner automagical sig pop-up and let probes pick up as usual.
2. Add J-space ESS with these features:
- Provides automagical sig pop-up exactly as now.
- Does not work if a ship is within x km radius (so no sitting on it). Or just leave bubble in place.
- Creates some tags for [insert faction, CONCORD, whatever] from Sleepers.
- Expensive and limited life span. Get rid of upgrade concept so it is a single use deployable.

This would allow ratters to avoid the clicks of probe/dscan spam, provide opportunity for combat and traps on the deployable, and reward scouting activity (get the tags).


I wish they would introduce a way to -1 people on these forums for posts like this. Any suggestion of bringing the ESS to wormholes (after they flopped mightily except to boost ratting income in null) is stupid from a gameplay standpoint and a lore standpoint (why would ANYBODY pay for tags for killing sleepers? It makes no sense)
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#392 - 2014-03-24 19:42:12 UTC  |  Edited by: unimatrix0030
On of the first things i did when joining a pvp wormhole alliance was to sign up the the probers class.
First we learned how to use d-scan to find someone of the alliance at a planet.
Then we learned how to find a pos.
At that time we were in a c5 with static c3.(no mapping tools existed yet, no corp bookmarks, and no not this alliance i am in now)
After that the alliance rolled the static hole and told me and an other newbie to go and scan the static.
After a few hole we finaly got a hit on sleepers wrecks.
Trying to find the combat site with d-scan was no easy for someone who just found it.
My class mate found them, while i found one of the residents pos. While we both just used d-scan.
This took at least 5-10 minutes .
After this the alliance dictor was warped to the site after the other classmates slowboted to them in his covert ops frig.
We caught some of them, while i was seeing them reship at a pos to counter attack, i relayed the info.
Thanks to the info we brought in some form of support to break their reinforcement fleet.
The prober class was a succes never seen before in the alliance!

Today this story is not possible.
The new sig spawns instantly, the hostiles instantly warp out and nothing happens.
Even with capitals still in siege/triage you have an average of 2.5 minutes to find a site, warp to it, get into position to bring in a dictor/hic and pray that the warps are short or the targets get away.
A interceptor can't handle sleepers so we can't use that. A cloaky T3 is the only option, but they lock so slow... .
Even the best scanners have trouble getting into position in that small timeframe.
Today is a farmers paradise.
I remember the last time we went on an expedition we didn't even saw an enemy fleet because there was nothing there for them to kill.... .
So the only places to get people now is an eviction, on a wormhole or a pi-ship, less targets for everyone.
While i would love something like an ess to be able to get fights, they should first fix the ess.
Because thanks to some clever use of site and npc spawn mechanics the ess is very broken now.
It does not generate fights because of that. So all carot and no stick.

Besides gankes can go wrong check these out :
http://disavowed.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=22564540
https://zkillboard.com/related/31001971/201403231700/

So what would be the solution ?
I see 2 options:

1) in w-space sigs don't appear on the overview+overlay unless you scanned them(d-scan and/or probes).

2) if you still want a delay, make it so that scanning with probes also show the delayed ones.
The principle should be that offensive and defensive scanning should be rewarded.
The offensive ones get a delay for the ones not paying attention.
The defensive ones see it before the delay is over.
all is in balance that way

Also i wouldn't mind if ore sites become a scannable again. Maybe they should be so strong that you can see it is a ore site but just can't warp to it unless scanned.
That way new players still see o, there are ore sites, but they need to get probes.
Wich is always a good idea in w-space... .

No local in null sec would fix everything!
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#393 - 2014-03-24 19:44:09 UTC
Ali Aras wrote:
So having talked to several other people about this, I'm convinced of the necessity for the change (and of the shittiness of spamming probes). That said, there are still issues with it, so I want to instead echo a suggestion I heard elsewhere of a mass/time delay on incoming k162s instead of a pure time delay. That is, a k162 will not show on probes or system scanners for either x seconds pass or y grams of ship transit, where x is on the order of 120 or 180 or so, and y is on the order of 2-3 covops worth of mass. These values should be a percentage of the mass/time limits on the wormhole itself, to scale them by wormhole class and allow for some logical consistency to the mechanic (after all, the invisibility is like a little microcosm of the mother wormhole's lifetime).

A mass/time delay would resolve the following issues a time-only delay leaves unsolved:

C1-4 residents can no longer be ganked by a fleet without being able to see the fleet or their incoming signature. In C1-4 space, a cloaky t3 gang can cause serious issues for a farming fleet, particularly on the lower side of that range. Should a K162 spawn off d-scan from where the fleet is, the defenders would have literally no warning. Even on d-scan, the available time to detect a cloaky fleet's existence is short, and spamming d-scan is no more fun than spamming probes.

Carebears can't roll their holes in perfect safety. If a hole is time-limited only, some carebears good with rolling ships can hop in and out inside the timer, and the hungry PvPers they've inadvertently rolled into have no opportunity to attempt a gank or slip a scanning alt through.

It maintains the freedom from probe spamming and increased risk to the defenders (who are now alerted when the fleet is jumping in, not when the scout first warps to the hole) without adverse side effects introduced by the pure delay, and the complexity issues fit easily with the rest of wormhole space mechanics.



OMG what is it with CSM's chiming in with bad ideas. Where to even begin.

1. Spamming probes and/or dscan is part of WH life. The whole concept of moving away from this mechanic (aka discovery scanner) is what got us into this mess and created this thread. If I want to farm isk without needing to spam probes or dscan I'd go farm anoms in 0.0.

2. Your concept does not resolve the above issues at all.

a. Whether the k162 sig shows up after just a set time or when the fleet jumps through makes little difference. The attacker still has plenty of time to send thru a covert ops (without triggering the sig) and get a warpin. The only thing that changes in your scenario is that the sig will show up at the same time the ships are in warp to the site runners. And keep in mind the discovery scanner only scans once per minute so there is enough of a delay that the attackers may still land on grid before the sig actually shows up.

b. Since the "carebears" dont trigger the sig with the covert ops jumping thru they have time to get their hole rolling ships read. It is very easy to then jump ships through quickly and the hole gets rolled before the sig is scanned down.

Who said we want or need the freedom from probe spamming or dscanning? Heck ya know sometimes I'm annoyed living out of a POS so why don't you throw stations in WH systems while you are at it. It would make about as much sense.

If you are running again you are at least down one vote.
Einar Matveinen
Mahe Ratu
#394 - 2014-03-24 19:45:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Einar Matveinen
I have lived in w-space for a year, i think the wandering w-space capsuleer idea is utopic: players live in w-space systems in POSes, there they store their ships, their loot, make reactions, refine ore and build things. They're wormholers because they have chosen that, maybe because they hate alliance warfare or maybe because they want build tech 3 stuff. Being a wormholer and living in w-space need a bigger ISK investment and have more risk than living in the typical null sec alliance with dozen outposts, jump bridges and intel channels. I don't know exactly why is it necessary charging wormholers with more difficulties instead of helping them with a POS revamp for example.
Swidgen
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#395 - 2014-03-24 19:46:40 UTC
Can we get some confirmation from the devs that K162s spawn now only when a player initiates warp to the WH on the other side of said K162? Seems to me we should know how it works now before being asked to comment on proposed changes.

I might have missed it upthread, but it has long been speculated by players that a K162 doesn't spawn until someone warps to the other side, but afaik it has never been confirmed that that's how it works. Over the last few years there were significant discussion and argument threads about this mechanic. We players think we finally figured it out, but some confirmation from CCP would be nice here.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#396 - 2014-03-24 19:46:54 UTC
unimatrix0030 wrote:
On of the first things i did when joining a pvp wormhole alliance was to sign up the the probers class.
First we learned how to use d-scan to find someone of the alliance at a planet.
Then we learned how to find a pos.
At that time we were in a c5 with static c3.(no mapping tools existed yet, no corp bookmarks, and no not this alliance i am in now)
After that the alliance rolled the static hole and told me and an other newbie to go and scan the static.
After a few hole we finaly got a hit on sleepers wrecks.
Trying to find the combat site with d-scan was no easy for someone who just found it.
My class mate found them, while i found one of the residents pos. While we both just used d-scan.
This took at least 5-10 minutes .
After this the alliance dictor was warped to the site after the other classmates slowboted to them in his covert ops frig.
We caught some of them, while i was seeing them reship at a pos to counter attack, i relayed the info.
Thanks to the info we brought in some form of support to break their reinforcement fleet.
The prober class was a succes never seen before in the alliance!


Hate to break it to you, but this wasn't possible before the overlay scanner either unless the farmers were being lazy/stupid.
Qalix
Long Jump.
#397 - 2014-03-24 19:55:40 UTC
Not to whinge too much, since I have no opinion on the point of discussion, but...

This thread really ought to be in Features and Ideas. You guys have been putting all the "discussion of the future" threads there and that's where everyone goes now. I know it makes some sense to put it here because of the topic, but if that's the logic being used, why isn't the logic applied in the other subforums? Had this thread not been posted to EN24, I would never have known it existed. It's very confusing when you guys use inconsistent methodologies.

/Whine concluded
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#398 - 2014-03-24 19:56:29 UTC
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
Zappity wrote:
1. Remove Discovery Scanner automagical sig pop-up and let probes pick up as usual.
2. Add J-space ESS with these features:
- Provides automagical sig pop-up exactly as now.
- Does not work if a ship is within x km radius (so no sitting on it). Or just leave bubble in place.
- Creates some tags for [insert faction, CONCORD, whatever] from Sleepers.
- Expensive and limited life span. Get rid of upgrade concept so it is a single use deployable.

This would allow ratters to avoid the clicks of probe/dscan spam, provide opportunity for combat and traps on the deployable, and reward scouting activity (get the tags).


I wish they would introduce a way to -1 people on these forums for posts like this. Any suggestion of bringing the ESS to wormholes (after they flopped mightily except to boost ratting income in null) is stupid from a gameplay standpoint and a lore standpoint (why would ANYBODY pay for tags for killing sleepers? It makes no sense)

I'll admit that I don't really care about lore. The rest of your post is pointless arm waving with no actual reasoning.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#399 - 2014-03-24 19:59:48 UTC
Swidgen wrote:
I might have missed it upthread, but it has long been speculated by players that a K162 doesn't spawn until someone warps to the other side, but afaik it has never been confirmed that that's how it works. Over the last few years there were significant discussion and argument threads about this mechanic. We players think we finally figured it out, but some confirmation from CCP would be nice here.
As to my findings, it's like you say. Speculated but not outright confirmed. The closest thing next to a confirmation just recently came from CCP Goliath in this thread. But "the [very noticeable] absence of K162 wormholes" lacks the reason why they're absent.

NPE – ISD – RIP
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#400 - 2014-03-24 20:04:06 UTC
Qalix wrote:
Not to whinge too much, since I have no opinion on the point of discussion, but...

This thread really ought to be in Features and Ideas. You guys have been putting all the "discussion of the future" threads there and that's where everyone goes now. I know it makes some sense to put it here because of the topic, but if that's the logic being used, why isn't the logic applied in the other subforums? Had this thread not been posted to EN24, I would never have known it existed. It's very confusing when you guys use inconsistent methodologies.

/Whine concluded


They/you should just make a post in that area of the forums, with a link to here.

No trolling please