Wormholes

1) It is great that CCP is paying attention to WHs and want to make them better.

2) The immediate and automagical propagation of new signatures needs to go, at least in Wspace. This where the delay should be. They should still appear eventually, because its a nice user-friendly thing and we need that to increase the WH population, but they should not appear instantly.

3) Forced delay even when using probes is a bad idea because it prevents people from gathering information even through their own active endeavour. In sum: passive intel is bad, active intel is good. This is why we hate local so much - you dont need to do absolutely anything and it serves you perfect and up to date intel which cannot be avoided. And it is also why we respect combat scanning - its a learned skill that requires effort and patience and can be countered by vigilant victims, so the scanner actually needs to be good to succeed.

4) Delayed signature appearance would favour existing strong groups over smaller ones. WSpace should reward being sneaky and clever, not about getting advantage through numbers by arbitrary mechanics. This would also hurt groups in lower WH classes.

5) Proposed change would make seeding and quick defensive rolling uncounterable and usually even undiscoverable - again hurting active players. I'm especially worried about the rolling part. Engaging someone who just connected to our hole and wants to get rid of it is already very difficult and has very short time window. Preventing us from seeing it and scanning the connection altogether would make it nigh impossible and would make defensive rolling perfectly safe - which is very very bad. Wormhole pvpers do not find their content only in their static, we need incoming connections with which to interact as well.

6) This gets me to the overall aim of the proposal. It seems to be tailored towards ganking c5/c6 escalation runners but it is very narrow and without consideration to both other activities and to other WH classes. Imho the real problem of the often mentioned ease of avoiding pvp in wspace is NOT seeing the new connection (esp. if their automagical apperance on the overlay gets fixed) but how easy it is to get rid of it.

Rolling wormholes with capitals is just too safe, too risk-free. This is what I think needs adjusting. People who want to avoid pvp can currently simply isolate their system from other players and prevent interaction. And even if new connection spawns, unless its already bubbled (which shows enemy presence and removes any surprise) they can simply warp their rolling fleet to 0, jump in, jump out, and its done. Only possible counters are cloaky carrier and/or crossjumping T3 blob and getting trapped, which is less than ideal and highly disproportional (we usually dont mind getting collapsed in, many actually love going balls deep, the issue is that even if you're willing to commit to this highly risky "maneuver" it still is difficult to time it right and requires luck/ignorance).

Wormholes need more interaction between all kinds groups, not giving one of them advantage. We need more connections between all classes and we need those connections to be more risky (but not more difficult) to sever. We need it to be more difficult to isolate yourself, not to actively defend yourself from people you might meet. There were already suggestions for multiple static C4s, more roaming connections, making K162 sides spawn automatically without the need to warp to the sig, even spawing extra connections to wormholes with current sleeper kills. Add to that some new mechanic for riskier rolling (like the warp-in deviation increasing with ship mass I suggested earlier, or anything else) and you have a very good WH shakeup. All these would I think be much better for fixing the "pvp avoidance issue" without collaterally screwing someone or something else up.

Well ok, just remove this bullshit of overlay everywhere in nullsec and go back to the previous system, i have no problem with that...

Are we ok ?

Yes, it's very possible, but (as talked about at the summit) it doesn't potentially handle the problem as comprehensively as this.

To clarify, delaying the appearance in just the overlay and delaying it in both the overlay and probe scans would likely take a similar amount of development time.

So far the bulk of the people I see supporting this change are the large w-space PVP corps -- the likes of AHARM, No Holes Barred, Verge of Collapse, and Sleeper Social Club. This is, of course, expected. All it does is give them an advantage. Hilariously, some of them even want a delay in appearing in local when exiting a wormhole into k-space -- an advantage no other area of New Eden gets.

Верхушку пищевой цепочки ВХ занимает русское сообщество. Смысла что то обсуждать тут, с теми кто живет в с1-с3 нет

Actually I'm starting to dislike this idea of delayed wormhole appearance on probe scan and overlay.

One good question about that is: What will happen when current wormhole exits collapse and new ones appear? They should be able to be scanned immediately or else people would be stuck in there.

I'm pretty sure that the current mechanics work good enough.