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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#241 - 2014-03-24 06:00:03 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
I do agree with the idea as it would mean more htfu in wspace. Wspace people can make a lot of isk and the space does not have local. It should be mysterious and unknown. I do understand people position to farm in peace but i do not understand your spirit of wspace.


So if anyone was wondering why nothing really got done in WH's in the last term of the CSM it was because poor James had to bring his inbred half cousin to the dance and let him speak.

Seriously Chitsa if this was an idea you advocated at CSM summits when it was passed by you then you have not listened to a word of your constituents in the last year.

But then we are talking about a guy who called a mini town hall meeting knowing it was his birthday and he was going to be ****-faced so no real surprises I guess.

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity
AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#242 - 2014-03-24 06:05:42 UTC
To Two Step and others who think anyone farms virtually risk-free you're wrong. People who have 20-30 person ratting fleets plus 60+ available on pings rat virtually risk free ........... oh wait that would be you Two Step and you Chitsa and ........... whoa look at all the names who are for this and fit the criteria.


And get this damn thing off of the stickies. Nature lets cream float to the top and **** sink.

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#243 - 2014-03-24 06:17:03 UTC
I just don't get why it wasn't returned to how it was before. It went from one end of the spectrum to the other.

No trolling please
Adarnof
Kingsparrow Wormhole Division
Birds of Prey.
#244 - 2014-03-24 06:22:28 UTC
tl;dr The isk:risk ratio in lower holes is pretty bad as is, no need to make it worse.

While I concede the immediate notification of a new signature via the discovery scanner makes farming a bit too safe, I feel this proposed system leans too heavily towards ganking. If someone is not paying attention they deserve to die, what this delay system would change is that no matter how much effort you put in to staying "safe", someone will catch you. Even now I hear about farmers getting jumped so apparently it is still possible with the instant notification, delaying that on the order of minutes puts far too much power in the hands of the aggressors.

Couple this with the recent deflation in ribbon prices and I'd be surprised if people chose low-class holes over incursions or missions. If it's possible to pull upwards of 100M/hr in highsec with minimal risk, aside from the whole "your own corner of space" aspect there'd be little incentive to keep smaller groups in w-space and out of mission hubs. I think we can all agree that more people in wormholes makes for a better experience, without farmers to gank I know a few people who'd get mighty bored.

If you have a flight of probes out, you should be able to immediately scan every signature. Groups willing to take this extra step should be rewarded, survival of the fittest and all. I'm sure people would come up with ways to adapt, but I feel this change is more detrimental to content than creating any.

And I'm still bitter about ore anomalies.
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#245 - 2014-03-24 06:25:38 UTC
Stormbringer999s wrote:
What’s the end game CCP Fozzie? Additional content for w-space? I think we would all agree that it’s desperately needed, but in this guise I’m afraid it falls a little short. Isn’t it going to be a little predictable, as in what’s going to happen to w-space if and when these changes are implemented? Ganking opportunities become more prevalent, with the larger Alliances eventually dominating w-space, which will end up like Null, boring all bar the occasional blobfest. Whichever way you look at it, it’s hardly adding new content to the game. Maybe that’s what you want, another Null Sec type environment? Either way you’re looking at a hard sell from I’ve read thus far.

You made scanning easier to promote w-space activity, but in the end it provided little additional content. You changed or added various other game mechanics in recent patches, like ghost sites (damn straight their ghosts, never seen one myself), again with little to no effect in adding game content or increasing w-space occupancy.

Reverting back to previous models just induces boredom. Put your hands up if you actively sought out the scanning role. Yeah, that’s what I thought. Point made.

I appreciate the fact that you are constantly looking at how Eve as a whole can be improved, but this forum post should give you an indication of where you’ve been going wrong. If you want to create additional content for w-space you need to form a w-space group, CSM like, made up of the various Alliances heads to hash out ideas in an appropriate environment. This in my opinion is the only way you’ll get any additional content into the game that works for all involved, will promote growth into the area and will maintain the original vibe of w-space, that it can be a dangerous place to be in at any given time.

On a personal note, I myself farm sites to enable my character to grow as needed. Sometimes the isk I generate is invested into PvE, other times PvP. My point is the isk I generate remains in w-space, albeit the raw materials etc need to make whatever it is I purchased off market, but the net result is the same, the isk remains in w-space. This is where I live, this is where I believe the isk should remain. All of the pilots I know in w-space are of similar minds. There’s a message in there somewhere, has no relevance to this discussion, but it’s there nonetheless : )


*Hand up* It's actually the thing I miss most about older W-Space. The thrill of having to drop probes somewhere hidden, sometimes when there is nowhere. Having to dscan the rough angle and distance and get your probe group there for that single pass 100%

this won't end up a buff to larger groups unless the timer is something crazy like 10 minutes. The bigger the group the longer it takes to get orgainsed. What this boosts is the small and solo gangs and even then it's only a head start. It takes time, longer than most people think to track someone down and get in position. It means those out there who are truely adept at the scouting arts get rewarded for being good.

We already have a group, it's called the CSM and there are 2 current WH members on it. Go vote in CSM9 for the WH guy who you agree with or run yourself if you don't agree with any of them. If enough people agree with your position you'll get in.
Armakoir
Entity 42
#246 - 2014-03-24 06:29:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Armakoir
Ziirn wrote:
... decrease time spent in POS or cloaked [and increase PVP interaction].

This is the problem and goal.

The proposed idea is not the solution.

That being said, I support delaying K162s spawning on the probe scanner, but I do not support the inability of proactive players to defend themselves.

Afterthought: The depth of the 'proposed' changes (i.e. the inability to actively discover new K162s) will negatively effect smaller wspace entities that are already willing to PVP. I am a C3 dweller who is willing to fight, lose, and learn the ropes; however, if I am faced with the loss of ships due to both engaging in PVP and getting ganked, chances are I won't be able to afford the former.

As for smaller PVE focused entities, there will no doubt be some that leave wspace. The rest will accept losses to ganking as a part of doing business. But, in general, I think they will be less effected by the changes than groups that are already interested in PVP.
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#247 - 2014-03-24 06:32:00 UTC
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:


That is kind of true, it would lead to less people activating wormholes because they could warp to it and see what type of space it leads to without jumping.


Yes - so far fewer incomings to higher class wormholes get spawned - especially when people are scanning down a chain. I also bet that very few N432s ever get opened.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2014-03-24 06:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Borlag Crendraven
If you wish to introduce more risk, it has to go both ways and actively monitoring your home hole must be rewarded with at least the chance of catching what is coming. Removing that chance only makes things worse, especially for the lower class residents and it wouldn't necessarily make it better for the would be gankers either, after all you're not rewarding them based on risk vs. reward, but rather removing the part of risk in the form of jumping into too much they could take. Have that happen? Safely close the hole before the residents even see a chance of driving the invaders out. Thus no risk of pvp, reward of gank. The obvious risk increasing option for both sides is making statics appear on both sides before activation and forcing you to use probes for all signatures outside anomalies, as it used to be. Wish to still keep this easy mode for hisec? Do this for wormhole space only.

Want to introduce more risk and more chances of content beyond that? Introduce second statics, either similarly to how they are now handled, or via my previous suggestion of having that static be random from a set pool of options as in the c5/6 "big leaguers" would get a static that varies between c5/6 each time it spawns (ie not always to either c5 or c6 but for both), lower class holes without already existing dual statics would get a static to c1-4, ones that have it need no change. Known space holes should be excluded from the pool of options for that static in order to not make logistics side any easier than it already is.
Random Woman
Very Professional Corporation
#249 - 2014-03-24 06:42:02 UTC
I would welcome a delay (or no appearance at all) on the scanner, but I wouldnt change the visibility with probes.

An all around delay would probably kill rage rolling fleets, and if someone puts the effort in pressing that scan button every 30 sec, well then he should be rewarded by seeing all sigs.
Shade Millith
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#250 - 2014-03-24 06:44:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Millith
I got out of the W-Space game a while back, but occasionally likes to dive for PVP, so I'm pretty nuetral as far as bias goes. My thoughts are that this is a dumb idea.

Does anyone really think that PVE in W-space needs a higher risk?

Delay for the Sensor Overlay is fine. But do not put the delay for probes.

Already you've messed W-Space mining up by making it an anom, don't screw the rest of it up.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#251 - 2014-03-24 06:47:56 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Something has to be done. But just when miners were getting excited about the possibilities of wh mining again based on compression arrays, now they will flee because their ore is all in anoms. I love ganking me some miners, but it hardly seems fair to leave them as sitting ducks for 2 minutes. They might as well warp to anom and set the self destruct timer.

I really hope any delay is no more than 30 seconds to a minute from when someone first jumps through the new hole. That is all the time needed to begin the scanning process. Unfortunately miners are particularly vulnerable do to the lack of scanning necessary for their sites. I recommend changing all in wormhole anomalies to signatures to provide at least a small level of security.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#252 - 2014-03-24 06:54:01 UTC  |  Edited by: unimatrix0030
It was balanced before the oddesy changes.
The sig didn't jump into you overview automaticly you needed to scan .
That made it possible to miss it, wich made it possible to catch someone off guard.
Now the first thing people do when seeing a new sig is instantly warp to safety.
Wich means less encounters between players.
Intel shouldn't come free instantly, you should have to work for it.
So show up the new sig after a few minutes.
If people have probes out , then the probes should get it with the scans.
That way people need to do a effort.
Scanning defensivly should be as rewarding as scanning offensivly. But both should take some effort.
Now it is to safe. If people are doing sites without capitals there are out of the site instantly when a sig spawns.
With capitals it takes 5 minutes max .
So safe site running for everybody .

No local in null sec would fix everything!
Akseli Jari
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#253 - 2014-03-24 07:00:40 UTC
I'll put something forward that isn't a Yes / No answer in regards to CCP Fozzie's proposal.

As stated the fact that an on the ball corp running escalations / soloing or running a site with a partner, cannot do anything to detect if they are about to get made dead by others. That seems to be the main issue raised with this proposal, i'm of the mind that it sounds pretty fun, I could get more ganks but those that run escalations are at a much higher risk.

I like the new discovery overlay / new d-scan / quality of life with having new sigs pop up, its more of what you'd expect in the eve universe when we're all flying around super advanced ships.

If this change to delay the signatures from appearing both on the overlay and by probe scanner is implemented then there needs to be a way to offset it as well. I'd take this as an opportunity to look at what this could do for the economy with a new module or deployable / pos module.

Here are some suggestions, and i'd certainly like to hear some others that could offset the available information disparity to those that wish to know exactly when they are being rolled into.


  1. Pos module that displays information as it happens to all inside the wormhole.

    • This module would consume some sort of fuel at a very high rate, perhaps w-space items / stront (I list stront as its hard to transport into w-space in large quantities, not because its cheap)
    • This module could only provide general information if it made it available to everyone in the system


  2. Deployable that offers information to a corp or individual that deployed it when signatures spawn immediately.

    • This should be expensive and could be offered in flavours for groups of wormhole classes with an increasing cost
    • It could be manufactured using W-Space loot, helping the crashing W-Space economy (my nano ribbon prices D:)
    • This would not be scoop-able
    • This would decay rapidly and appear as a warp-in on the overview such, easily destroyed.
    • This module has the potential to have flexibility in terms of what CCP could let it do if only transmitting information to the one that deployed it (ships that jump in / random messages from wormhole gods / chance of a WH appearing / chance of a new sig appearing updated at intervals / how likely the Joves are to visit your system soon)


  3. Go back to the old way of doing things

    • Personally feel like this is going backwards when CCP did a lot of work to get us here, I like new content not reverting back to outdated methods, though they did work.
    • Delays implemented on signature overlay only.
    • It will catch those who aren't paying to much attention out, and in some cases result in new cap kills.
    • One change suggestion is to reduce the amount of rats that scram / point to allow for higher chances of getting your ships out if you do the sites properly, though you'll only have a few ticks notice.



CCP Fozzie has indicated that there is a chance to change up and rework a mechanic in W-Space, i'm all for supporting the Devs when they have displayed an interest in our part of eve, not alienating the idea and telling them to F-Off. The danger there is that Devs may just give up and we wont get anything.

I'd like to see this change go live, but also acknowledge that if it does go forward that there will be tweaks required to alleviate the one-sidedness that an aggressor would have over people who actually are paying attention and doing there best to be diligent.

If you have something constructive to add or change please shout it out, but have more then "horrible idea, nuff said"

Jari

I'm aware my gamma and spering is horid.Shocked
jangofett76
Doomheim
#254 - 2014-03-24 07:03:18 UTC
Omygod, CCP have shares in Blood Union Cry

Quote:
Does anyone really think that PVE in W-space needs a higher risk?


+1

When dreads are in anomaly in siege you have a good chance to die before you can :
1 : Be out of siege
2 : Stop be pointed by npc
3 : Send your Warp Lol

Maybe upgrades in wh could be good to have more exit to 0.0 for example <3 (no c5 static 0.0 Pirate)
Daphnea Eystur
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#255 - 2014-03-24 07:09:58 UTC
Just dropping my 2 isk in here as a current wormhole resident.

Currently when a new K162 spawns when we are running sites in our static we have time to ship out of our blingy pve ships into a pvp fleet, get a scout in place to see who we are up against and make an informed decision about wither to fight or run and hide like the cowards we secretly are.

This means that all some of the larger and scarier WH corps have seen of us of late is the back end of an Orca as we roll our C5 static before they have time to find where we came from. Smaller and less scary corps find us ready with fast tackle.

What these change mean for us is that we'll have to be more circumspect. We'll get jumped more often. We'll lose more ships. We'll find it harder to get out of the way of fights we don't want to take. On the other hand we'll be able to be the aggressor more often as well and do to others as others would do unto us. There's plenty of smaller /similar sized fish than us which we don;t get to chew on because they are as awake as we are.

We'll get more fights. We'll lose more ships. We'll have to be more active to pay for replacements, and spend longer in each anom. because we'll be fitting our ships to better survive a hot drop we can no longer see coming in time to clear off and re-ship.

That said the actual delay needs to be tuned very carefully and you should not underestimate how fast a dedicated scanner can get the drop on someone.

Also see the post upthread about a local delay in nullsec. If I can;t see immediately when someone's come into my home through a K162, nor should our friends the other side of our nullsec static.

As for miners, well if you take a look at our killboard and see how many times a Venture got the initial tackle, there's tactics out there that can turn the fact mining sites are so easy to find into an opportunity. Bait procurers anyone?
Hanna Cyrus
Spessart Rebellen
#256 - 2014-03-24 07:25:15 UTC
Sorry, i like the way how W-space worked. Then the "overlay" hits the fan with **** for us (what noone wants in w-space). Now a delay on probe-scans?

This is a terrible idea, because it strenghten the big corps/allys. There is no more PVP, it leads to more ganks, much more ganks. Low class WH (1-4) normal inhabited by small corps, are the sacrifice. Small corps that are not as big, go to low w-space, they are often real life friends, that you can trust - most of us don't want strangers in their corp. When you ask why? It's the rights allocating that is still ****, how a about a rework for POS and corp-roles?

If you want "blueballing" and blobs, go annoy the nullsec guys. Ask them if it's cool to have no local + probe scan delayed. Ask how many will quit living there. It's now easy to enter a wh and log out, wait on an alt to see my gankbros (yay evewho) are on and log in on a save spot that they dont see on d-scan. You want to make it much more easier? If someone don't like the way it is now, i think he should go to k-space and fight with nullsec guys.

My suggestion:

1.) Go back! All sigs and all stuff in space should be scanned down, to warp there, one exception is the sun, no others.
2.) Don't punish guys, who playing active, probes out and hit the scan button.
3.) Balance nullsec and stay out of w-space balancing,if you don't live there
Anthar Thebess
#257 - 2014-03-24 07:33:28 UTC
Very bad idea.
WH space already have very limited number of people living there.
There is no point of reducing it more.

I feel that CCP want more players in higsec Shocked

I don't live in WH space.

Why you just not boost WH space?
Put more content there by allowing WH maintaining for longer periods.
Sleeper farming is boring as hell.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#258 - 2014-03-24 07:35:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Shilalasar
So this is how you get the faceless masses (and their npc alts) to post here, make a blue post. Lol Guess they are not affraid of getting ganked by CCP

Let´s have a quick look at the state sigspawning is now:

Group A rolls its hole, scans new sig down and initiates warp. At this moment it apears in group B´s system and on everybods overlay. No matter what ship you are in, no probes or clicks needed, no matter if cloaked, possed up or scrammed and neuted by sleepers.
Scanner from group A lands at range at the new hole, bookmarks it, puts it in the correct corpfolder, burns to the hole and let´s at least one of his buddies fleetwarp to him because corpbookmarks take time. Then he jumps through and loads grid.
By that time anyone has already Possed up and is scanning for the new sig. A competent scanner is already in warp and will see scanner A decloak while he is making his own bookmark.

The proposed system will lead to scanner jumping in and eigher have a fleet landing on your ratters before you can even see the sig or, if there is too much opposition on the other side, allow for 100% safe rolling.
No way to get better or more fights from this.
Even funnier with k162s into k-space. You will be in local before your grid is loaded and you will be 2 systems out before the sig shows up.

Also people will just be combatprobing like crazy for new sigs/ships then.
While I´m all for dead ratters this is not a good aproach.


Just making the sig show up after loading grid or decloaking would be a good way to cut down the warningtime by a lot.
Ofc, if that would mean no k162 spawning until you jump through that would benefit the homeratters even more...

Also, I remember posts about not bringing all the k-spacetimers into here, you want to create our own artificial timers now?

If you want more dead escalationrunners just set the T2 siegetimer to 10 minutes too, that will work wonders.


mynnna wrote:

Instead, leave the overlay as is, but remove the ability to loot and salvage sleeper wrecks. In its place create a new structure that does it for you but has a relatively lengthy access time, say five minutes or so, long enough that if someone does come through that newly spawned hole, they'll find ya. Then you do have the choice to flee, but doing so means losing what you've made farming.

In essence I'm proposing a wormhole version of the ESS, except because I always hear wormholers telling me how much more hardcore than anyone else they are, it's mandatory, keeps 100% of earnings in it, and doesn't actually confer any additional bonus.


So you are talking about a noctis, right? I´m pretty sure that is how it is already.
And since you mention the ESS, how hard are you pushing to fix that thing not sitting in fully triggered anoms? So it has actually a use besides boosting rattingincome? Blink



Quote for the funniest post on the forums for a while:
Desimus Maximus wrote:
I'm sure this came about from 'leet' pvpers whining about not having enough targets that won't/can't fight back.

W-space has no local. This is it's inherent danger. Don't punish players for being efficient at game mechanics such as scanning down signatures quickly and keeping d-scan up. Stop rewarding whiny pvpers who only have the balls to attack soft targets with easier and easier mechanics.

If a w-space corp is lazy then they will be punished appropriately by losing many many assets.

If you want to fight go to low or nullsec you pussies. Or just live with the perfectly fine scanning mechanics as is. You will find all the pvp you want... Problem is, you are AFRAID. You are the REAL carebears of Eve.
MadbaM
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#259 - 2014-03-24 07:49:18 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:

I don't live in WH space.

Sleeper farming is boring as hell.


Thank you for your invaluable contribution to this topic, i was originally in favor of a change along the lines suggested but your argument has persuaded me that it is indeed very bad idea.
The Fong
Machiavellian Empire
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#260 - 2014-03-24 08:01:39 UTC
DoToo Foo wrote:
Allowing a mobile scan inhibitor to hide a sig would even be acceptable.


This is an idea that merits further exploration. What I'm hearing from larger WH entities is they want fights to result from rolling hole and they like the suprises of unknown space. Regular C5/6 connections are not providing that at the moment because quick scouting by both parties and information symmetry leads to stand downs. Home team cap superiority contributes to some extent also.

Imagine this for a moment: a new deployable you anchor in your home system which lasts for 6 hours and prevents any OUTGOING connections from registering a K162 in their target system for, say, 3-15 minutes. However, any ship that passes through has its dscan disabled for that period as well as sig scanning for ALL ships in the target system.

For the timer haters out there, this is one timer.

You could imagine the C5/6 v. C5/6 standoff looking something like this:
The attacking side's covops or multiple covops would enter a newly rolled static and have their dscan inhibited. They have the option of either launching combat probes or scouting out anomalies and POS's silently/manually while the dscan inhibition clock counts down. If the attacking fleet attacks a target(s) of opportunity, some degree of information superiority is now granted to the defenders who are not dscan inhibited. The home team defenders can choose to fleet up and take a fight or burn their existing fleet back through the chain home without a head count from the attackers (due to the signature scanning disability in system). Fights are more likely to happen somewhere in system rather than on a WH connection; which is a nice change of scenery after years of T3 fleet/capital standoffs occurring on a WH.

Things I haven't thought through:
- How or whether this applies to lower class wormholes.
- How the sig scanning disability would be implemented and how the penalty would be obscured from pilots in the target system.

Take information assymetry from the attackers, and apply it to both sides and C5/6 combat will burn bright. Reward the bold and the risk takers :)