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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#101 - 2014-03-23 23:06:28 UTC
Joran Jackson wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Joran Jackson wrote:
I want to make a longer post.

Laziness is a huge factor. Spamming probes is not all it is cracked up to be and there are plenty of times where someone doesn't do it as often as they should, or goes AFK, or is dumb and decides to run shorthanded and second clients the scout.

I think even going back to the spamming probes method is a huge improvement because it forces activity out of the farming fleet. And as everyone in this thread knows there's plenty of opportunities that happen in those seconds before a button push. I think there's pros and cons to going further than that, but at a minimum that is where the conversation should start.

The status quo isn't good for wormholes.


If somebody is lazy, or unskilled, or messes up, then that's the time when they should be ganked. If somebody is paying attention then there's an opportunity for both sides to have a fight they will enjoy, rather than stacking the cards to one side in order to allow large groups to gank smaller ones.


If you're entire point is to have the permanent probe delay removed? Fine, I agree with you. Only if you agree to have the sensor overlay delayed until you get a probe hit. I'd be perfectly happy with a change that takes us back to pre-Odyssey.


Yeah, that sounds good to me. Require you to at least scan the system to know a sig is there, I'd be fine with going back to that.
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#102 - 2014-03-23 23:06:41 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Team Five O has been working on a few concepts for improvements to wormhole mechanics and we wanted to run one idea by you all to start some discussion in the community. This idea has already been discussed with the CSM, and we don't currently have specific plans to implement it but we think it's at least worth getting discussion started.

We have been thinking about and discussing the way that the Sensor Overlay has affected Wormhole life, mainly in the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing (which often indicates that the entry of hostile players may be imminent).
We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source.

The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.

This change would make life in wormholes a bit less safe, and increase the sense of real danger that unknown space should include. The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.

The delay could take a few potential forms, either a set timer of a couple minutes, a timer that has random elements or even one that is variable depending on the amount of mass that passes through the wormhole.

This would obviously be a very significant change to wormhole mechanics, and we think it may be a very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience.

I'd like to repeat that this change is currently not planned for any specific release, but we would like to start community discussion on the idea and see where it goes.

Let us know what you think in this thread, and we'll be watching closely.
Thanks!
-Fozzie



This is a great proposal, its fair and does bring the required level of danger into w-space. Doooooooo it.
Joran Jackson
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#103 - 2014-03-23 23:07:52 UTC
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Joran Jackson wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Joran Jackson wrote:
I want to make a longer post.

Laziness is a huge factor. Spamming probes is not all it is cracked up to be and there are plenty of times where someone doesn't do it as often as they should, or goes AFK, or is dumb and decides to run shorthanded and second clients the scout.

I think even going back to the spamming probes method is a huge improvement because it forces activity out of the farming fleet. And as everyone in this thread knows there's plenty of opportunities that happen in those seconds before a button push. I think there's pros and cons to going further than that, but at a minimum that is where the conversation should start.

The status quo isn't good for wormholes.


If somebody is lazy, or unskilled, or messes up, then that's the time when they should be ganked. If somebody is paying attention then there's an opportunity for both sides to have a fight they will enjoy, rather than stacking the cards to one side in order to allow large groups to gank smaller ones.


If you're entire point is to have the permanent probe delay removed? Fine, I agree with you. Only if you agree to have the sensor overlay delayed until you get a probe hit. I'd be perfectly happy with a change that takes us back to pre-Odyssey.


Yeah, that sounds good to me. Require you to at least scan the system to know a sig is there, I'd be fine with going back to that.


Joran Jackson, Uniter.
Alisyana
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#104 - 2014-03-23 23:08:12 UTC
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Alisyana wrote:
Disable sig overlay and D-Scan. Problem solved.


Are you suggesting disabling D-Scan in wormholes?


Yes.

Remove the d-scan and the sig overlay and you go back to the mechanic that existed before, where you had to do something (scan with probes) to find a signature, and by removing the d-scan you make it more uncertain for both sides when they meet.

Just fight it out and see who wins.

**Definition of "SD" (Self Destruct) = "It's like running up to someone to kick them in the balls, they see you and proceed to kick themselves in the balls, and then laugh at you for denying someone a chance to kick them in the balls." ** - Celery Man
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#105 - 2014-03-23 23:08:47 UTC
Joran Jackson wrote:
I want to make a longer post.

Laziness is a huge factor. Spamming probes is not all it is cracked up to be and there are plenty of times where someone doesn't do it as often as they should, or goes AFK, or is dumb and decides to run shorthanded and second clients the scout.

I think even going back to the spamming probes method is a huge improvement because it forces activity out of the farming fleet. And as everyone in this thread knows there's plenty of opportunities that happen in those seconds before a button push. I think there's pros and cons to going further than that, but at a minimum that is where the conversation should start.

The status quo isn't good for wormholes.

How about make it so you need to press the scan button in order to get the refreshed list of signatures? No probes needed (just like now), but being active and pressing that button is (just like pre-odyssey).

I'm a leaf on the wind, watch how I--THE CAPACITOR IS EMPTY

Youtube: /asayanami

Twitter: @asayanami

wormholefundamentals.com
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#106 - 2014-03-23 23:09:11 UTC
Alisyana wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Alisyana wrote:
Disable sig overlay and D-Scan. Problem solved.


Are you suggesting disabling D-Scan in wormholes?


Yes.

Remove the d-scan and the sig overlay and you go back to the mechanic that existed before, where you had to do something (scan with probes) to find a signature, and by removing the d-scan you make it more uncertain for both sides when they meet.

Just fight it out and see who wins.


I'm not even sure if I should dignify that idea with a response.
Faxanadu Phantasm
Magister Mortalis.
#107 - 2014-03-23 23:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Faxanadu Phantasm
James Arget wrote:


This change would be very very powerful for the spawning party



Yep

What course of action to you suggest a 10 man c5 corp do to avoid losing all our caps? I personally own 4 and can fly 3 at a time

If youre proposing that I just roll over and die because I should be able to afford to replace them.. I have some rather harsh words for you

As long as there's something we can do to continue to operate under these proposed changes, then its fine

but if you just expect us to have more 'operational costs' i think this idea isnt very well thought out. This change will need to be offered along with something to balance it

A change like this without any counterbalancing will have an impact on smaller groups like ours
Moe Lesture
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#108 - 2014-03-23 23:12:40 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.



Number of jumps / amount of mass passing through it affecting appearance time sounds good.

Also, The amount of mass being WARPED to the wormhole could affect it. This way, if a capital is warping to the wormhole, it will immediately register on your scanners v0v but a frigate class wouldn't even phase it. HICS may use their mass reduction to exploit this but a HIC cant solo tank sleepers forever...

A balance between scouts having time to look around vs gank fleet passing through may be a good compromise.

sig here
Bum Shadow
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#109 - 2014-03-23 23:13:34 UTC
I'd say, hidden from sensor/probes for 2-4 minutes. UNLESS, someone warps OFF the grid (IE came through hole, is now warping off the grid of the K162 side towards his target. OR the hole has gone through a stage change within the initial 2-4 minute "hidden" period.


So, this allows a scout to jump into the hole within the 2-4 minute hidden period, Do a bit of D-scanning without warping, maybe get a quick and simple initial "feel" for the system.

Once that scouts warps away from the WH, the site becomes "Active" regardless of the current timer status.

If nobody warps off the WH, BUT enough ships enter through to cause a stage change, I'd also make this trigger the signature/overlay as active.

I'd say this gives some room for manoeuvre without making it unreasonable on the prey.

2-4 minute timer forces the aggressors group to be quick and proficient to secure a successful ambush, any **** ups on their part and the signature becomes active for the prey to discover, either by a hasty scout, too large of an initial ambush team, or delayed reactions on the aggressors side.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#110 - 2014-03-23 23:14:23 UTC
Moe Lesture wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.



Number of jumps / amount of mass passing through it affecting appearance time sounds good.

Also, The amount of mass being WARPED to the wormhole could affect it. This way, if a capital is warping to the wormhole, it will immediately register on your scanners v0v but a frigate class wouldn't even phase it. HICS may use their mass reduction to exploit this but a HIC cant solo tank sleepers forever...

A balance between scouts having time to look around vs gank fleet passing through may be a good compromise.


Hics can't warp while under the effect of their bubbles, so the amount of mass being warped to it couldn't be changed. If it was jump related then it could be done in the same way as closing a crit hole.

Not that I agree with the idea in general.
ROSSLINDEN0
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#111 - 2014-03-23 23:17:29 UTC
******** idea imo, it not showing on overlay is good but not being able to probe it is way too powerful to the person who opened it, i could scout the full system and see how many and what ships they have online and form a gank fleet in the time it takes for the sig to show....
devian chase
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2014-03-23 23:19:02 UTC
You guys all want easier ganks .
But if you cant get a fleet going in the 2-3 minutes it takes for a pve fleet to clear a site of pointing sleepers you dont deserve the kill :)
Ganking shouldnt be made easier ...
We just need more ppl in wh space , since incursions you can get the same isk/h and group pve totaly safe in high sec or get more doing the FW thing
K-space ppl dont go up for day trips to wh space at all anymore
there just isnt a reason for ppl to come up to wh space , everything up here takes way more effort and coordination

if you want to improve wh space :
1 remove escalation waves ,will force ppl to do sites in small pve fleets again outside of their capital infested home
2 add c1-3 site spawns to c5 classes as well , so ppl dont need the 6+ gang to do stuff
3 add pointy sleepers to all c1-3 sites
4 small buff to the loot of all sleeper sites
5 add more content like ded plexes / sansha stuff to wh space
Intana Kreis
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#113 - 2014-03-23 23:21:33 UTC
ROSSLINDEN0 wrote:
******** idea imo, it not showing on overlay is good but not being able to probe it is way too powerful to the person who opened it, i could scout the full system and see how many and what ships they have online and form a gank fleet in the time it takes for the sig to show....


and if they have too much, roll in the time it takes for the sig to show.
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#114 - 2014-03-23 23:21:53 UTC
Schwa Nuts wrote:

I completely disagree with the notion that you can farm wormholes nearly risk free. Twice in two months I've lost my C5 capital fleet to logoff traps, and I had friends evicted from theirs just a few weeks ago. The merits of the change I'm still vascillating on, but the statement that it's nearly risk free to farm wormholes is, in my opinion, just not true.

There seems to be a lot of angry ranting from gankers who feel like they should be given as many advantages as possible in order to win a fight. If there is enough preparation on the side of those looking for the fight, they have, as it stands, a pretty clear advantage already.



And I will give you reasons for why you have lost your fleet:

-Log off trap is currently the only way you can catch someone running their sites as ANY other method lights up a big sig on everyone's overlay (at least people had to fit scanner probes on their lokis before)

-You are not a w-space group, you are a bunch of null dwellers who grabbed a w-space system in order to make some ISK. That does NOT make your opinion invalid, what it does is make you an easy target. People who perform logoff traps on you know that there is little to no retaliation coming, they know its just a couple of guys with a few alts.

In a realistic scenario, this change is aimed towards actual w-space dwellers, people who spend tons of time in w-space, in those cases you can't even do a logoff trap because you know that they will have a massive capital superiority just a ping away.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#115 - 2014-03-23 23:22:49 UTC
Intana Kreis wrote:
ROSSLINDEN0 wrote:
******** idea imo, it not showing on overlay is good but not being able to probe it is way too powerful to the person who opened it, i could scout the full system and see how many and what ships they have online and form a gank fleet in the time it takes for the sig to show....


and if they have too much, roll in the time it takes for the sig to show.


Yeap. As I was saying earlier, it removes almost all the risk from rolling out a hole you don't want, as the people on the other side can't scan it down and get stuff there to crossjump or catch you.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#116 - 2014-03-23 23:29:41 UTC
Nyx STeeLGamers wrote:
I don't know how this change in k162 appearance delay will affect the quality of pvp for entities already willing to fight. I do know that this will lead to a decrease in Wh population for people living just for pve. The same sort of thing happened to c6 space where big groups purged pve entities in c6's. Don't think c6 is better off as a result. From what you are proposinf ccp fozzie, the quality of consensual pvp will remain unchanged but Wh ganking will increase. I'm not sure that's best for W-space. But hey, if you go through with this, we'll adapt.

confirming we'll make necessary adjustments here.

rolling with the punches.

o7

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Castor Troyy
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#117 - 2014-03-23 23:30:41 UTC
TLDR:
Sensor Overlay delay---who cares (I don't think anyone does)
Probe Delay..no way...if the offenders open the door, the defenders need to see it too without any delay


This change is good if you are one of the few wormhole juggernaut corps/alliance that actively role their statics to gank pve farmers.

There are however far more smaller corps/alliances that simply just don't have the numbers to counter anything that this delay would cause.

I'm speaking typical of c5/c6 space now:

Overlay Delay / Probe Delay... What is the difference? If you roll into a system where pve is taking place. PVPers should be ready to go anyway. Maybe a minor fleet comp change b/c of wh system effects [probably not b/c we have taken armor fleets into pulsars several times with success.]. But what is the point to leave the "soon-to-be-victims" in the dark further?

The only folks in favor of this change are members of the above mentioned large corps/alliances. All this change would help is more successful ganks in lower space whs...because the success of capital escalations ganks are pretty high already. Mabye the gankers don't get the whole fleet....but it is likely they will get a few capitals.

What will happen way down the line is all this isk that these farmers earn will be put back into buying new farming fleets. Then..when their isk runs out [because they get ganked more often]....they will just abandon the notion that wh space is a good source of income and leave. Cause and Effect..keep it in mind

Think of everyone when making this change...not only the folks that primarily enjoy wh space for pvp, but also the ones who enjoy the pve aspect of it too.
Laryk
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2014-03-23 23:31:14 UTC
For the most part, I really like this change. Any change to WH space that increases the chance for PVP, and makes PVE harder is in my opinion a good thing for WH space.

Definitely removing the K162s from the overlay is a plus. I never liked the idea of ships being able to see any of the sigs in system without actually have probes out. This feature is broken IMO.

From the aggressors standpoint, having a delay on the sig appearing is a neat idea. I almost feel that it needs to have some limitations. Someone suggested being unable to warp off hole until it appears. Something along those lines is reasonable.

Another idea would be to allow the sig to be hidden for a period of time, unless a substantial amount of mass comes through the hole. My concern is that, even the most diligent of corps could potentially have a cap wave seeded in their system without them even noticing. If you have a group that actually pays attention to the sigs in their system, an opposing foe should be unable to drop a cap fleet into their system without any possibility of finding out. Sub-caps however, would be less of a concern.

This of course is my opinion and how it pertains to my play style and what I enjoy in game.
Shyzandra
EyEs.FR
#119 - 2014-03-23 23:31:43 UTC
I think that would be a very bad way to give to wh pvp'ers like me "something to eat". We rarely found active people in W-Space and when we do they're farmers doing some site. The mechanics changes you're proposing will be short term solutions as it will only lead to W-Space depopulation... In other words a small increase of pvp (mostly farmer ganking) followed by a greater decrease...
What you want to do is increase wh population by offering something interesting (nothing in mind beside isk) but some capsulers explained it way better than me. More capsulers in WH mean more collapsing, more ship traveling and thus more potential danger.

Now about the mechanic itself, how would it work with a wh leading to a null sec? The pilots would see us in D-scan, in local, but not see the signature? That would be odd.
What if a X702 open in your home? The null sec residents would actually have an advantage on the W-Space residents? That would be wrong...

When you think about it on a bigger scale, it would give big advantages to K-space capsulers against W-Space, and none to W-space against K-space...
And in my opinion, W-Space should be in comparison to K-Space "where unknown death come from" and not a " Easy kill area" for the HS/LS/00 ppl...
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2014-03-23 23:32:19 UTC
The big problem I have is that many WH sites are anoms. This basically gives the invader complete surprise so long as they act quickly. Even with a mass restriction they could just pop in with bombers for a quick kill.

Perhaps another approach, what if random signals popped up in WH space from time to time? When scanned down they would just be random materials that somehow emitted a signal. It is unknown WH space after all. These random signals would have similar difficulty and the same unknown status as WH's to scan down.

This would mean that each new signal might prompt the players to scan, but they wouldn't be sure if it was a K162 or a random anom.