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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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El 1974
Green Visstick High
#1381 - 2014-03-23 15:11:46 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I see. So in order for this to be an incentive to come to null for my alt as a miner, I also need to be a refiner and have access to a null refinery or rorq.

No, not necessarily. You could try to join a corp that has all that ready for you. Note that the ice in nullsec also contains more ice products, so it's more valuable.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1382 - 2014-03-23 15:13:18 UTC
Querns wrote:

So, you're saying that one should not fly any spaceship unless it's been built by their own hands? What nonsense is this?

Also, you seem unusually concerned about the fomenting of entitlement in an organization or organizations to which you don't belong. I can't really see why this would matter to you.


No, I do not say that you should build your ships on your own, that is nonsense and what industrialists and miners are for. But thanks for trying to turn my words into your favor. What I say is that people should not be entitled to a life with a silver spoon in the mouth, but to earn their living.

Because these organizations try to shape the game in way it's favorable to them, not for the game. For instance. So I have every right to be concerned and concern myself with the matters, because I don't pay money to fund your game. Roll

--

baltec1 wrote:
If there is more than enough reward outside of high sec why are the vast bulk of miners in high sec? Christ even the bots are almost totaly located in high sec and they are all about getting the most isk for their time.


Because not everyone is wiling to invest as much time and money into living in 00 for reasons that better money there cannot compensate (family, job, social life, other hobbies, other games, ...). Not everyone can and wants to dedicate themselves to a live in constant motion, but just wants to enjoy spaceships. That is something you cannot have in 00 all the time; 00 demands your dedication because of wars, CTAs, defense fleets, etc. (I repeat myself here)
Because botters in 00 need more maintenance than in High sec and can be easily disrupted.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1383 - 2014-03-23 15:21:58 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
A 20% bonus to your income right on your doorstep is worth the risk.


Yes, but null gets that 20% bonus regardless of where the ore/ice originates from.

Though there is an increased incentive to mine in null, that same time spent mining can also be spent instead in hauling compressed high-sec ore/ice for the same 20% bonus in null refineries.

So the status quo and incentive on actually utilising null resources, is still mitigated by that same time instead being spent in hauling from high-sec, as was the case before the change.

Whereas before that activity involved hauling compressed guns for reprocessing into minerals in null, the same activity now continues instead as hauling compressed ice/ore with an additional profit due to the refining rates that exceeds that which was possible with gun compression hauling.

Subsequently it also becomes possible for null to manufacture that direct increased refining yield of compressed ice/ore from high-sec into products, which can then be compressed and re-shipped back to high-sec markets for sale at a margin that high-sec manufacturing cannot feasibly match due to high-sec not being able to compete with the ice/ore refine yield in minerals garnered by null from the compressed ice/ore they imported from high in the first place.

What actual mining activity this might incentivise in null, would be for the ore types that are not available in high, which again, due to the refining change, can be added to the base minerals garnered efficiently from refining of imported high-sec compressed ice/ore, manufactured, compressed, and re-shipped to high-sec again for a margin that cannot be met by high-sec not only due to their local reduced refinery rates, but also due to their inability to access "cheap" rarer ores in high-sec, and even if they could, they could only refine them at a lower efficiency.

Furthermore, due to the reprocessing nerf, null actually becomes even more dependant on minerals acquired through other means. Though this to a small degree incentivises mining in null for those minerals instead, as I demonstrated above, they can and will still be aquired from high-sec instead.

Am I correct in any of this?

So though it incentives null mining (of rare ores) to a small degree, the real profit and efficiency is still in importing compressed high-sec ice/ore (whereas before it was compressed guns) refining that at an increased efficiency, manufacturing it, and then re-selling product in high-sec at a margin that high-sec manufacturers cannot match due to their own native lower refinement rates.

I don't think this is necessarily "bad" for high-sec, but I think the incentive for null actually finally utilising its own domestic resources to the full is a bit overstated in many interpretations of this change. The best efficiency and profit, to my understanding, is still in importing high-sec ice/ore, which infact is now more efficient in mineral yield than gun compression ever was, not in mining domestically in null.

I don't think we will really see a substantial degree of null utilising its own ore resources as a result.

If compressing high-sec ice/ore was restricted, yes, that would certainly massively incentivise domestic mining in null, but that is not the proposed change.

Alts of null-dwellers can continue to mine in the safety of high-sec, compress and haul their ice/ore to null, get an increased efficiency yield in minerals, manufacture, and sell back to high-sec. At every stage of this process the profits accumulate above and beyond what was the case today, and it doesn't even require you to mine in null instead.


that's very good read and nice argumentation.

i would like invite everyone to look at it from other angle:

that refining change (particularly outpost buff - they would be best) looks very good addition if sov space holder is interested to get as many as possible renters renters.

renters actually pay isk to use null space already.

confusing part is that sov holding alliances refuse to use that space because it is too bad and need buff, but renters like it enough to pay for possibility to use (not the best) sov space.

who are renters you may ask? why they want that space if even holding alliances members better running lvl4 missions in high sec? so after summer there will be one more reason to join null as renter

remember CSM and words from one of them some time ago - if you going to remove moon goo then we need "farm & fields". there is one step to that direction and a lot of eve players very vocal about bottom - up income - so be careful what do you wish.


The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1384 - 2014-03-23 15:24:17 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Querns wrote:

So, you're saying that one should not fly any spaceship unless it's been built by their own hands? What nonsense is this?

Also, you seem unusually concerned about the fomenting of entitlement in an organization or organizations to which you don't belong. I can't really see why this would matter to you.


No, I do not say that you should build your ships on your own, that is nonsense and what industrialists and miners are for. But thanks for trying to turn my words into your favor. What I say is that people should not be entitled to a life with a silver spoon in the mouth, but to earn their living.

Because these organizations try to shape the game in way it's favorable to them, not for the game. For instance. So I have every right to be concerned and concern myself with the matters, because I don't pay money to fund your game. Roll

So, players should never strife to build a life for themselves where they don't have to toil in squalor to get what they want? This is ridiculous. All the perceived largesse and silver spoonery was wrought by our hands from nothing. If you want that, put in the work. You know, that "work" stuff you keep insisting is necessary in order to properly play the game.

Quote:

baltec1 wrote:
If there is more than enough reward outside of high sec why are the vast bulk of miners in high sec? Christ even the bots are almost totaly located in high sec and they are all about getting the most isk for their time.


Because not everyone is wiling to invest as much time and money into living in 00 for reasons that better money there cannot compensate (family, job, social life, other hobbies, other games, ...). Not everyone can and wants to dedicate themselves to a live in constant motion, but just wants to enjoy spaceships. That is something you cannot have in 00 all the time; 00 demands your dedication because of wars, CTAs, defense fleets, etc. (I repeat myself here)
Because botters in 00 need more maintenance than in High sec and can be easily disrupted.

I don't know what alliance you're basing that nonsense about CTAs and whatnot on, but it sure as hell ain't my alliance. If that is your perception of 0.0, get a better alliance.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1385 - 2014-03-23 15:28:46 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

Because botters in 00 need more maintenance than in High sec and can be easily disrupted.



Yea,neither of those things are true.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1386 - 2014-03-23 15:34:44 UTC
Querns wrote:
I don't know what alliance you're basing that nonsense about CTAs and whatnot on, but it sure as hell ain't my alliance. If that is your perception of 0.0, get a better alliance.


You've already forgotten about the lengthy fights in B-R and HED? Your Hell Camp of N3s staging system in Detorid? Your funny token system for fleet participation, and if not done sufficiently you get booted from the alliance? This is the stuff I am talking about and this is "sure as hell" your alliance. Blink

Giving people rewards in form of SRP is not what I disagree with; apparently everyone needs to be nannied these days. But I disagree with providing excessive SRPs, with taking away every work from the players so that they can fidge along and have way too much time at their hand, which they don't know how to spend, while others do all the work for them. This mindset is what I disagree with and which needs to be changed in order for benefactors to keep in mind that everything has a price and doesn't just fall from trees or comes floating into your mouth from milk and honey rivers.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1387 - 2014-03-23 15:36:01 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Querns wrote:
I don't know what alliance you're basing that nonsense about CTAs and whatnot on, but it sure as hell ain't my alliance. If that is your perception of 0.0, get a better alliance.


You've already forgotten about the lengthy fights in B-R and HED? Your Hell Camp of N3s staging system in Detorid? Your funny token system for fleet participation, and if not done sufficiently you get booted from the alliance? This is the stuff I am talking about and this is "sure as hell" your alliance. Blink

Wrong.

I personally did not participate in B-R and HED, nor any of the hellcamps, or indeed ANY of the south action at all. I'm still in my alliance.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1388 - 2014-03-23 15:43:38 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Querns wrote:
I don't know what alliance you're basing that nonsense about CTAs and whatnot on, but it sure as hell ain't my alliance. If that is your perception of 0.0, get a better alliance.


You've already forgotten about the lengthy fights in B-R and HED? Your Hell Camp of N3s staging system in Detorid?


None of these were CTA OPs, we never have CTA OPs.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1389 - 2014-03-23 15:53:16 UTC
I particularly enjoy it when someone on the outside tries to step in and tell us how we run our alliance. It's adorable.

Also, I guess I don't see the problem with taking away the horrible money making parts of the game to encourage people to do the fun parts (PVP). The carrot is always more effective than the stick.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1390 - 2014-03-23 15:54:38 UTC
Right, your coalition call it strat ops ... Oh wait ... Roll ... CTA Strat Op even... Are we really down to letter picking now?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1391 - 2014-03-23 15:57:48 UTC
that thread already was locked and cleaned so lets keep on topic and without any personal attacks.

do sov holding alliances need more industry oriented players as members?

do sov alliances feel shortage on modules/ships?

do sov space is more dangerous than npc null, wh, low sec from pve perspective?

do sov holding alliances need more pve oriented players?

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1392 - 2014-03-23 16:01:29 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Right, your coalition call it strat ops ... Oh wait ... Roll ... CTA Strat Op even... Are we really down to letter picking now?


Go find one for BATs.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1393 - 2014-03-23 16:10:58 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Right, your coalition call it strat ops ... Oh wait ... Roll ... CTA Strat Op even... Are we really down to letter picking now?

I said alliance, not coalition. Now who's twisting the words in their favor?

I didn't even click on those links. Hint: Goonswarm Federation does not use evemail to conduct its business. We have out of game comms for that.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Lucy Riraille
Taxeva
#1394 - 2014-03-23 17:24:39 UTC
Reread this crappy ideas "devblog"!!!

Noticed a few things:

First, Nulsec gets ANOTHER Vamp. CCP folks simply don't get it.

Check your numbers and statistics please! Mining isn't done in Nulsec, it is done in Hisec. Why? Logistics, accessability, rentability. Drone space didn't have a single miner as alloys could be reprocessed in way larger scale any mine could ever mine!

What are CCP's plans now? introduce ANOTHER money printer for Outpost rulers: using a ferining service in nul may give more yield, but htese services will have to be paid for, so miners will still be exploited.

Furthermore, most of "cheap" mission loot is being reprocessed where? In Hisec, as space is rare for a nulsec ratter, he usually picks the most expensive items and disregards the rest.

With the recently nerfed loot drop rate and further nerfed reprocessing results, hisec missionrunning will also become less profitable.

The trouble is: CCP thinks it is a great idea as this might push more players into nulsec space, which is failry empty and mostly boring, interrupted only by short periods of ridiculous hotdrops and some "epic" space battles...

The harsh reality is this: as long as poeple in nulsec are forced to spend the most of their online time wating in CTA, fleet ops, will they be crap poor as the cannot spend their time making money ratting or mining. SRP is financed by the various income sources of larger nulsec entities. It is a tool to keep the power by keeping the "normal" habitant poor.

Now CCP will use the same method on ALL hisec residents?

LOL! People will rather quit and play Elderscrolls online or other space games before they go to nulsec.

The powerblocks there need to get resized and "ratting rights" shouldn't be able to sell, but as long as there's an idiot to buy crap, so long crap will be sold for gold.
Dalketh
DRRUSSEL
#1395 - 2014-03-23 17:32:24 UTC
Apologies in advance if I missed the answer to this, but if someone already owns a Medium Intense Refinery, will it automatically be converted to the new Compression Array?
Darkblad
Doomheim
#1396 - 2014-03-23 17:42:08 UTC
Dalketh wrote:
Apologies in advance if I missed the answer to this, but if someone already owns a Medium Intense Refinery, will it automatically be converted to the new Compression Array?
The devblog suggests that by stating "That is why we are turning the previous Medium Intensive Refinery into a Compression Array". Other than that, there was no further confirmation regarding that by CCP in this thread.

NPE – ISD – RIP
TravelBuoy
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1397 - 2014-03-23 17:59:55 UTC  |  Edited by: TravelBuoy
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Big changes coming! Big smile


Picture from this nerf :http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65852/1/Reprocessingrates.png (compared datas before and after)

And the nerds will be happy, when this crap nerfbat come.
CCP Fozzy aka. Pandemic Legion exmember Raivi, why dont go to.... with ur nerfs ????
Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
Gooseflock Featheration
#1398 - 2014-03-23 18:10:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Lionel
Also its not good that the PoS module assumes max skill. Why train 200 days of skills if I can just use a PoS for almost max skill refine? And what about the rorqual? Where is its role now?

Also isn't the now required 200 days training time a bit much? Maybe shrink it down alot?

Right now you have to put about 5.5 million SP in resorce processing, after this it will be almost 20 million. BIG JUMP. More so than tech 2 guns even.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#1399 - 2014-03-23 18:14:26 UTC
Did someone mention botting in nullsec?
Darkblad
Doomheim
#1400 - 2014-03-23 18:22:16 UTC
TravelBuoy wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Big changes coming! Big smile


Picture from this nerf :http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65852/1/Reprocessingrates.png (compared datas before and after)

And the nerds will be happy, when this crap nerfbat come.
CCP Fozzy aka. Pandemic Legion exmember Raivi, why dont go to.... with ur nerfs ????
you missed the 1/0.724 buff part

NPE – ISD – RIP