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Sov landlords are the only ones who "may" gain anything here.
Landlords install refining upgrades and renters request - landlords up the rent to pay for upgrades.
Win win with moderate outlay and no risk.

The time to mine the stuff doesn't go away. Transport time and cash however does. A 20% bonus plus shorter logistics and less isk spent on that transport all factor in. We can be supplying front line battleships for 20 mil less than it costs to import them.


We have run the maths on this, mining in null is worth it after these changes.

Mine stuff in highsec, transport from highsec to null station, transport from refinery to forge, transport to market

Mine in null next door to refinery, transport to refinery, transport from refinery to forge, transport to market.


Which one of these has lower costs and takes less time?

The first one takes more time.

But what takes less time than either one, is buying high-sec ice/ore (compressed or not) and hauling it to a null sec refinery for a 20% increase in yield.

When you do this in sufficient quantity, the amount you can move and refine for a 20% markup results in more total minerals for the same time spent than either of the above. This because the amount of ice/ore you can fit in a freighter multiplied by the time it takes to move it, becomes less than the time required to sit in a belt mining for that same amount of ore/ice. For lack of a better term, lets call this "Market Mining".

This was already happening before in the form of compressed gun shipments. Now it changes form to compressed ice/ore shipments, and has a higher total mineral yield than compressed guns did, due to the refining efficiency changes. So the same behavior as before, is to be expected hereafter, except the commodity being moved changes. This also was touted as one of the "reasons" that null actually mining its own space was considered unworthwhile. However, since this element is not being removed, is simply changing, and is now more efficient than gun compression hauling was, it stands to reason it will remain as a damper on null sec mining and become even more prevalent than it was before.

Furthermore, as to the point of this incentivising mining in null sec, that comes with the invariable rent cost.
The higher potential profits that a miner can hope for, if he has access to refining personally, are mitigated by the rent cost of having access to those facilities in the first place. To a net result that they may still just as well remain just as profitably in mining in high-sec in safety, selling to market, as they would doing so in null sec to a better refinery, but having to pay rent for the privilege.

All of this to the net result that it is infact manufacturing and refining which becomes more lucrative in null.
And that is well and fine and I totally support that.

But what this does not really incentivise much, once one perceives the implications of it all, is actual null mining.
The change is touted as a "incentive for miners to move to null, and for null to begin utilising its own resources", but I don't think that is actually what the changes enact to any substantial degree.

Ofc it is possible (and even something I personally would recommend if anyone cares about my noob perspective) for Corps operating in Null to devise their own internal incentive programs to help leverage this change so as to incentivise more miners and indys to make the move to Null, in the form of lowered rent for example in return for a guaranteed flow of minerals. The change itself however, I don't think provides much incentive.

No it doesnt depend, A mack is a mack, they mine the same everywhere. Are you going to truthfully answer or are you just going to try and worm out of answering like you have been every other answer you dont like?

No they don't actually.. A mack in highsec can on an average day, out mine one in nul. He doesn't have to warp to a pos every time a neut enters system.

How do you figure it will fall, are Goons going to upgrade all their refining stations for free? Are renters going to have their stations upgraded for free??
Is the ore and minerals going to be hauled for free?

Yes the Trit has changed hands many times 'and' each time it changes hands someone has to make a profit.

I'm not usually one to agree with viewpoints expressed by GSF but baltec1 does have a point. There has been a large campaign by the nullsec community to get better refining facilities for quite a while now. If the proposed changes are implemented it will be far more likely that the nullsec community will look to be far more self sufficient and complete more of the cycle within their own space. The majority are harping on about ferrying in compressed ore from high sec but they fail to realise the alternative.

Also on a separate note I haven't read all sixty-odd pages of comments (Yet.... ;) ) but is anyone mentioning that unrefined ore takes up more space than minerals in a freighters hold? This will be one of many possible costings to take into account for high sec miners to take into account if compressing ore in high sec becomes the predominant method.

Never did I claim that mining in null will now suddenly blossom, i don't think it will (no change there). But you are being overly negative about the new layers of specialization and even seem to add mutual exclusive processing paths to make the list longer.

The point is, large producers will already have good standings for their faction and they will be the ones to put up raw ore buy orders. They can offer a better price then compression specialist middleman, meaning the chain with losses is not as long as you claim. Only null bear alts can undercut big producer prices. But economically hoarding minerals in null has its limit, and it is impractical to bring minerals back to high sec after that. There exists no mineral compression anymore.

What could happen is that null bears buy up ore, compress it, then ship it and produce stuff in null. There is a cap on how much they can produce per station in the form of manufacturing slots. Then they can bring back the end-products to high sec for sale. The price of exploitation of the better refining comes with several costs...compression, shipping, loss of available manufacturing capacity and shipping again. The last shipping part is next to free as it can be done in the same ships that pick up the compressed ore in the first place. Still there is time invested there and competitive priced modules is not bad for high sec i would say.

What we will see is likely these chains:

1. Miner does no compression -> Sells to nearby producer who does compression if hauling time makes that worth doing.

Short chain, least amount of losses, both parties benefit.


2. Miner does compression and hauls to hub -> Sells to null bears that ship it to take advantage in their outposts.

Compressed ore is likely to be available in hubs in huge amounts for the same reasons minerals are found there.
For the miner that always sold minerals in Jita these steps are easier then before, no more mineral balancing. Less volume to ship. The only downside...need of a pos, where before compression was done in stations. Upside, no need for manufacturing skills, nor station standings other then the point of sale (= more mobility)


As for the Rorqual, i agree it is an odd ship with ill defined use. Compression is certainly not its number one selling point anymore. As for clone bays, well, wouldn't a POS structure be more logical there too? Regardless of how changes will be implemented, needing Industrial "Siege" to be of any use is a big downside in my opinion. You can get close to the same with an Orca deploying a temporary Pos to do compression. A pos that is needed anyway to stay safe.

You havent seen our SRP bill this week.

60 bil investment is nothing when you look at the long term savings.

Comrades, most of my fellow starter and intermediate rookies have not had their consciousness raised sufficiently to participate in this thread, therefore as a rookie I should like to offer my perspective which I think is coincident with theirs:

The subtle corollary of the Refining* amendments ie. to dislodge the parasitic capitalists of Highsec, is laudable; however I cannot support the changes as they stand as I foresee that the greatest burden of the changes will fall on the most disadvantaged of New Eden citizens, namely, Rookies.

At the moment, Rookies, of limited means and in NPC corps may refine to the best of their ability with 5/4/1, losing perhaps 2.5% thru imperfect standings. After the change, each ore commonly found in Highsec shall require further training of approx. 125hrs for V/Sc/Py/Pl and 250 hrs for O. The Highsec anomaly ores K/J/Hem require 250 hrs, and Hed 375. Thus, the average Rookie player with a smattering of +3/+2 implants who has already trained 5/4/1 will require another approx 31 days training in order to refine the belt-sourced ores - yet to an inferior degree to which they can presently. (The 4% implant is out of the reach of most Rookies, even if they know it exists, and so expensive as to require a jump clone which also will be out of the reach of the average NPC member Rookie). In order to have perfect refining for all Highsec ores, the average Rookie will need to spend a total of approx. 80 days training.

Established comrades may take these extra training times in their stride (esp. with powerful implants) - but they are a grave impost on Rookies who are scrabbling to acquire skills to be functional and safer in the hostile world of New Eden. In short, few Rookies will be able to achieve efficient levels of refining of even those ores which they mine themselves. They will necessarily give up profitability and market share to established players both in mineral sales and manufacturing. Their efforts to break out of the low-paid drudgery of mining will be thwarted, as will their efforts in exploring some of the other occupations New Eden offers.

Depending on the productivity of low/null sec in relation to total productivity, the increased yield there (of say, 15%) may cause further disadvantage to new comrades struggling to get ahead in New Eden. If it is appreciable, it will reduce the pull of minerals/ore from Highsec and depress prices. Already, many miners are exploited by long-term low-priced ore buy orders, and the fruits of their labours are appropriated by wealthy established rentiers and shipped to low/null sec. Some Rookies offer resistance to these exploiters and refine their own ore, selling their minerals directly or using them in manufacture - Comrades, this is about to be taken away and Rookies will be forced to into long term mining servitude!

Do not let a subjugated underclass of Rookies chained to rocks and competing with bots, be created! **






*'Reprocessing' as an umbrella term is a poor choice, imo. One may refine both ore and other things, and one may reprocess manufactured goods, but one may only reprocess ore that has already been processed at least once :/

** (( Obviously it won't be, 'cos if playing how they want to play is too onerous or efforts to progress are in vain, new players won't persist ))

((Suggestion: One possible amelioration to the excessive training time and disadvantage the change will cause new players
Skills:
Standard High Sec Ore Processing (x1) .... includes V/Sc/Py/Pl/O
Anomaly HIgh Sec Ore Processing (x3) ..... includes K/J/Hem/Hed ))