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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#1201 - 2014-03-22 10:25:03 UTC
TJ Grimes wrote:
I'm a fresh player to Eve and I would like to set up my own business where I mine, reprocess and then use the minerals to make products to sell.

I wanted to do it in the safety of high security space until I have a better understanding of low security space.

So from what I can see, high security miners will lose minerals (and in turn ISK) from a lower reprocessing yield but to balance the ISK loss they are given easy methods to compress ore.

Low/Null security space miners get the better yield, but lose out on the "425mm cannon transporting method" allowing the high security space miners to monopolize and make up for their lower reprocessing yield and generally keeping the same average income of ISK.

But what about people like me who want to keep their minerals to make products, the cost to make a product is higher for me in a sense as some of my minerals are going waste, is my only option to move to low/null security space?

I feel like these changes will force me to charge slightly more for a ship or module I make from high security space as it's cost me slightly more minerals/ore to make it in the first place.

Am I being ignorant and missing something here?

Edit: Are these changes taking into account high security space players who want to use ore/minerals to make ships and modules, or is it being assumed that everyone mines to sell minerals/ore.


In this thread you have a number of self-important Goons carrying out is intellectual masturbation, they think they are so so clever but most people reading their posts see them as so far up themselves its embarrassing. And they are so arrogant that they fail to see that. But of course they are full of themselves because they have got what they wanted, so triumphant posting on their part says a lot doesn't it.

You question hits the nail on the head, a lot of new players do what you are doing and also a lot of older players who do not want to operate within these 0.0 cartels, in one stupid ill thought out change which was applied to get rid of extra materials on BP'sCCP just shafted all those people, for me it doubles the amount of grinding I have to do to make a ship. I hope CCP will think about this a bit more because most of the group I am with are rather annoyed with this, but CCP only listen to the 0.0 controlled CSM and shrills like these self-proclaimed economic Goons.

The 0.0 cartels want to screw over hisec, however reasonable people like myself saw no reason why those 0.0 sov stations couldn't be upgraded to be as good as hisec, but saw no reason to nerf hisec, by cutting refining efficiency to make you grind more, with the changes to ore amounts its not as bad as it may first appear, but for those that reprocess modules for minerals it is catastrophic.

As you can see they are also hogging this thread and posting lots of pap in here to hide people coming up with issues like you,and insulting people that is again part of their strategy, again they are very good at it and CCP will fail to note your concerns due to their hogging of this thread with their pap.

So what are my options, I could cancel my paid for accounts and have as my leaving reason this change, wait a couple of days and then re-sub, at least it will get past the Goons blocking it here, there is no point in saying anything in Assembly Hall or speaking to the CSM as they ignore people like you and me.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#1202 - 2014-03-22 10:32:12 UTC
I love all these terrible lore reasons for making highsec the be-all do-all end-all. "It has better technology because order!!" "It's empire technology!""


Here's a few to consider:


Rampant corruption taking your extra

Capsuleers are inherently superior, empire sucks balls

Rubicon blah blah crossing boundaries breaking free of empire's grasp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1203 - 2014-03-22 10:36:29 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
TJ Grimes wrote:
I'm a fresh player to Eve and I would like to set up my own business where I mine, reprocess and then use the minerals to make products to sell.

I wanted to do it in the safety of high security space until I have a better understanding of low security space.

So from what I can see, high security miners will lose minerals (and in turn ISK) from a lower reprocessing yield but to balance the ISK loss they are given easy methods to compress ore.

Low/Null security space miners get the better yield, but lose out on the "425mm cannon transporting method" allowing the high security space miners to monopolize and make up for their lower reprocessing yield and generally keeping the same average income of ISK.

But what about people like me who want to keep their minerals to make products, the cost to make a product is higher for me in a sense as some of my minerals are going waste, is my only option to move to low/null security space?

I feel like these changes will force me to charge slightly more for a ship or module I make from high security space as it's cost me slightly more minerals/ore to make it in the first place.

Am I being ignorant and missing something here?

Edit: Are these changes taking into account high security space players who want to use ore/minerals to make ships and modules, or is it being assumed that everyone mines to sell minerals/ore.


In this thread you have a number of self-important Goons carrying out is intellectual ************, they think they are so so clever but most people reading their posts see them as so far up themselves its embarrassing. And they are so arrogant that they fail to see that. But of course they are full of themselves because they have got what they wanted, so triumphant posting on their part says a lot doesn't it.

You question hits the nail on the head, a lot of new players do what you are doing and also a lot of older players who do not want to operate within these 0.0 cartels, in one stupid ill thought out change which was applied to get rid of extra materials on BP'sCCP just shafted all those people, for me it doubles the amount of grinding I have to do to make a ship. I hope CCP will think about this a bit more because most of the group I am with are rather annoyed with this, but CCP only listen to the 0.0 controlled CSM and shrills like these self-proclaimed economic Goons.

The 0.0 cartels want to screw over hisec, however reasonable people like myself saw no reason why those 0.0 sov stations couldn't be upgraded to be as good as hisec, but saw no reason to nerf hisec, by cutting refining efficiency to make you grind more, with the changes to ore amounts its not as bad as it may first appear, but for those that reprocess modules for minerals it is catastrophic.

As you can see they are also hogging this thread and posting lots of pap in here to hide people coming up with issues like you,and insulting people that is again part of their strategy, again they are very good at it and CCP will fail to note your concerns due to their hogging of this thread with their pap.

So what are my options, I could cancel my paid for accounts and have as my leaving reason this change, wait a couple of days and then re-sub, at least it will get past the Goons blocking it here, there is no point in saying anything in Assembly Hall or speaking to the CSM as they ignore people like you and me.



You will be earning exactly the same isk as a miner in high sec in the summer as you do right now. CCP are not nerfing high sec miners income at all. Everything you just put is rubbish based upon incorrect assumptions.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#1204 - 2014-03-22 10:37:31 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
TJ Grimes wrote:
I'm a fresh player to Eve and I would like to set up my own business where I mine, reprocess and then use the minerals to make products to sell.

I wanted to do it in the safety of high security space until I have a better understanding of low security space.

So from what I can see, high security miners will lose minerals (and in turn ISK) from a lower reprocessing yield but to balance the ISK loss they are given easy methods to compress ore.

Low/Null security space miners get the better yield, but lose out on the "425mm cannon transporting method" allowing the high security space miners to monopolize and make up for their lower reprocessing yield and generally keeping the same average income of ISK.

But what about people like me who want to keep their minerals to make products, the cost to make a product is higher for me in a sense as some of my minerals are going waste, is my only option to move to low/null security space?

I feel like these changes will force me to charge slightly more for a ship or module I make from high security space as it's cost me slightly more minerals/ore to make it in the first place.

Am I being ignorant and missing something here?

Edit: Are these changes taking into account high security space players who want to use ore/minerals to make ships and modules, or is it being assumed that everyone mines to sell minerals/ore.


In this thread you have a number of self-important Goons carrying out is intellectual ************, they think they are so so clever but most people reading their posts see them as so far up themselves its embarrassing. And they are so arrogant that they fail to see that. But of course they are full of themselves because they have got what they wanted, so triumphant posting on their part says a lot doesn't it.

You question hits the nail on the head, a lot of new players do what you are doing and also a lot of older players who do not want to operate within these 0.0 cartels, in one stupid ill thought out change which was applied to get rid of extra materials on BP'sCCP just shafted all those people, for me it doubles the amount of grinding I have to do to make a ship. I hope CCP will think about this a bit more because most of the group I am with are rather annoyed with this, but CCP only listen to the 0.0 controlled CSM and shrills like these self-proclaimed economic Goons.

The 0.0 cartels want to screw over hisec, however reasonable people like myself saw no reason why those 0.0 sov stations couldn't be upgraded to be as good as hisec, but saw no reason to nerf hisec, by cutting refining efficiency to make you grind more, with the changes to ore amounts its not as bad as it may first appear, but for those that reprocess modules for minerals it is catastrophic.

As you can see they are also hogging this thread and posting lots of pap in here to hide people coming up with issues like you,and insulting people that is again part of their strategy, again they are very good at it and CCP will fail to note your concerns due to their hogging of this thread with their pap.

So what are my options, I could cancel my paid for accounts and have as my leaving reason this change, wait a couple of days and then re-sub, at least it will get past the Goons blocking it here, there is no point in saying anything in Assembly Hall or speaking to the CSM as they ignore people like you and me.




lmao "grinding" to make a ship? Maybe if your idea of "industry" wasn't an inefficient shitfest it could survive a balance patch. Any self-respecting company is going to ignore your prattling inefficiency when struggling to BALANCE AN ENTIRE ECONOMY'S MINERALS
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#1205 - 2014-03-22 10:48:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Both of the people who responded to me did the typical deflect away from my issue, the first Baltec ignores the reprocessing of modules and correctly points out that there is little difference in refinery rates in 0.0 and hisec, however it is enough to give 0.0 manufacturers the advantage over hisec ones, which is crucial for their renting empire. This is why they are so full of themselves.

The second one, uses insults, without any understanding of the point I raised, I operate in NPC 0.0, mining is not an option, its impossible, so gun mining is really the only way, while earning ISK with bounties, but he is too stupid to work that out and throws an insult to make him feel all superior, a legend in his own lunchtime. I was talking about the excessive nerf to module reprocessing!


Earlier in this thread we had Baltec and Weasoler both allude to additional changes coming through, now I thought Myanna was subject to a NDA, but they are so sure of themselves that they make it evident that they know what else is coming in spite of their rep being subject to a NDA. But of course CCP will ignore this, because they have a working relationship, its not surprising that many people start calling the Goons out on this by saying that they have CCP in their pockets, when two people who are not CSM members know what is coming and can indicate that they know it without any fear of a reaction from CCP. When I called these Goons stupidly arrogant, one understands that sometimes being overly triumphant can have repercussions, but like many I have no expectations that CCP will even react to this.

So you guys either know what is coming and wanted to show your superiority or you are pretending you know tyo make you feel more important, by doing either says quite a lot about you.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#1206 - 2014-03-22 10:53:18 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Both of the people who responded to me did the typical deflect away from my issue, the first Baltec ignores the reprocessing of modules and correctly points out that there is little difference in refinery rates in 0.0 and hisec, however it is enough to give 0.0 manufacturers the advantage over hisec ones, which is crucial for their renting empire. This is why they are so full of themselves.

The second one, uses insults, without any understanding of the point I raised, I operate in NPC 0.0, mining is not an option, its impossible, so gun mining is really the only way, while earning ISK with bounties, but he is too stupid to work that out and throws an insult to make him feel all superior, a legend in his own lunchtime. I was talking about the excessive nerf to module reprocessing!


Earlier in this thread we had Baltec and Weasoler both allude to additional changes coming through, now I thought Myanna was subject to a NDA, but they are so sure of themselves that they make it evident that they know what else is coming in spite of their rep being subject to a NDA. But of course CCP will ignore this, because they have a working relationship, its not surprising that many people start calling the Goons out on this by saying that they have CCP in their pockets, when two people who are not CSM members know what is coming and can indicate that they know it without any fear of a reaction from CCP. When I called these Goons stupidly arrogant, one understands that sometimes being overly triumphant can have repercussions, but like many I have no expectations that CCP will even react to this.

So you guys either know what is coming and wanted to show your superiority or you are pretending you know tyo make you feel more important, by doing either says quite a lot about you.





I, too, admit to abusing a flawed system (gun mining), ignore the fix (this patch), and think I should be able to compete with people who strive for efficiency in my backwater system with no operation and one ship to my name


Confirming I know what changes are coming - hint hint nod nod
Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1207 - 2014-03-22 10:56:56 UTC
Mal Nina wrote:



On to refining skills.

If the argument is that to be good at something you should have to skill it should apply to every way that you do something regardless of where you live. My skill 4s and 5s should mean something if I am refining ore at my POS. That investment in training should mean something important. It should provide me with an advantage over the guy that has no skill. Regardless of where you are and what you are using, when you use it, whether its an AB, a 150mm gun or mineral refining, your skills should give you an advantage over the guy without skills.



I totally agree
Refining skills should have an effect in POS refining array
A char with no skill, no implants can get 75% refining yield
While a fully skilled char with implants get 72.4% in a high sec station!!!!
And if he uses the POS Refining array he ll get same yield as the unskilled char ....

This goes against the whole philosophy of CCP for this change. Rather than encourage ppl to skill up it will encourage them to ... Own a POS
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#1208 - 2014-03-22 10:58:00 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Both of the people who responded to me did the typical deflect away from my issue, the first Baltec ignores the reprocessing of modules and correctly points out that there is little difference in refinery rates in 0.0 and hisec, however it is enough to give 0.0 manufacturers the advantage over hisec ones, which is crucial for their renting empire. This is why they are so full of themselves.

The second one, uses insults, without any understanding of the point I raised, I operate in NPC 0.0, mining is not an option, its impossible, so gun mining is really the only way, while earning ISK with bounties, but he is too stupid to work that out and throws an insult to make him feel all superior, a legend in his own lunchtime. I was talking about the excessive nerf to module reprocessing!


Earlier in this thread we had Baltec and Weasoler both allude to additional changes coming through, now I thought Myanna was subject to a NDA, but they are so sure of themselves that they make it evident that they know what else is coming in spite of their rep being subject to a NDA. But of course CCP will ignore this, because they have a working relationship, its not surprising that many people start calling the Goons out on this by saying that they have CCP in their pockets, when two people who are not CSM members know what is coming and can indicate that they know it without any fear of a reaction from CCP. When I called these Goons stupidly arrogant, one understands that sometimes being overly triumphant can have repercussions, but like many I have no expectations that CCP will even react to this.

So you guys either know what is coming and wanted to show your superiority or you are pretending you know tyo make you feel more important, by doing either says quite a lot about you.


I, too, admit to abusing a flawed system (gun mining), ignore the fix (this patch), and think I should be able to compete with people who strive for efficiency in my backwater system with no operation and one ship to my name

Confirming I know what changes are coming - hint hint nod nod


So you are a Goon then, or your reading and comprehension skills suck even more than I first thought Roll

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1209 - 2014-03-22 10:59:36 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Dracvlad wrote:
Both of the people who responded to me did the typical deflect away from my issue, the first Baltec ignores the reprocessing of modules and correctly points out that there is little difference in refinery rates in 0.0 and hisec, however it is enough to give 0.0 manufacturers the advantage over hisec ones, which is crucial for their renting empire. This is why they are so full of themselves.

The second one, uses insults, without any understanding of the point I raised, I operate in NPC 0.0, mining is not an option, its impossible, so gun mining is really the only way, while earning ISK with bounties, but he is too stupid to work that out and throws an insult to make him feel all superior, a legend in his own lunchtime. I was talking about the excessive nerf to module reprocessing!


Earlier in this thread we had Baltec and Weasoler both allude to additional changes coming through, now I thought Myanna was subject to a NDA, but they are so sure of themselves that they make it evident that they know what else is coming in spite of their rep being subject to a NDA. But of course CCP will ignore this, because they have a working relationship, its not surprising that many people start calling the Goons out on this by saying that they have CCP in their pockets, when two people who are not CSM members know what is coming and can indicate that they know it without any fear of a reaction from CCP. When I called these Goons stupidly arrogant, one understands that sometimes being overly triumphant can have repercussions, but like many I have no expectations that CCP will even react to this.

So you guys either know what is coming and wanted to show your superiority or you are pretending you know tyo make you feel more important, by doing either says quite a lot about you.


We did what you didnt.

we read the dev blog. We have spent the last 66 pages correcting people who have not read the dev blog. All our info is in that dev blog.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#1210 - 2014-03-22 11:21:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Both of the people who responded to me did the typical deflect away from my issue, the first Baltec ignores the reprocessing of modules and correctly points out that there is little difference in refinery rates in 0.0 and hisec, however it is enough to give 0.0 manufacturers the advantage over hisec ones, which is crucial for their renting empire. This is why they are so full of themselves.

The second one, uses insults, without any understanding of the point I raised, I operate in NPC 0.0, mining is not an option, its impossible, so gun mining is really the only way, while earning ISK with bounties, but he is too stupid to work that out and throws an insult to make him feel all superior, a legend in his own lunchtime. I was talking about the excessive nerf to module reprocessing!


Earlier in this thread we had Baltec and Weasoler both allude to additional changes coming through, now I thought Myanna was subject to a NDA, but they are so sure of themselves that they make it evident that they know what else is coming in spite of their rep being subject to a NDA. But of course CCP will ignore this, because they have a working relationship, its not surprising that many people start calling the Goons out on this by saying that they have CCP in their pockets, when two people who are not CSM members know what is coming and can indicate that they know it without any fear of a reaction from CCP. When I called these Goons stupidly arrogant, one understands that sometimes being overly triumphant can have repercussions, but like many I have no expectations that CCP will even react to this.

So you guys either know what is coming and wanted to show your superiority or you are pretending you know tyo make you feel more important, by doing either says quite a lot about you.


We did what you didnt.

we read the dev blog. We have spent the last 66 pages correcting people who have not read the dev blog. All our info is in that dev blog.


Nice try, I did read it and all 66 pages of this thread, the fun part is that its a good defence on your part, but the context in which you and that other Goon used it indicated that you actually knew what is coming to shut someone up in terms of their argument. So it was bluster was it?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Bunnie Hop
Bunny Knights
#1211 - 2014-03-22 11:28:51 UTC
When is the summer expansion anyway?
TJ Grimes
Doomheim
#1212 - 2014-03-22 11:31:12 UTC
Seen two posts quoting my questions and thoughts, but they also quote the first response to my questions and thoughts, so I guess they aren't directed at me? Hard to tell when someone quotes two seperate posts, so I'll ask again.

Is CCP making the assumption that people mine in high security space to sell minerals and ore?

It seems that way as they are offering the easier ore compression methods to "hi-sec" players to make up for their lower yield, allowing them to sell this compressed ore and in turn make no real dent on ISK income.

But I love the idea of collecting various materials in "hi-sec" and then turning them into the end products be it modules or ships, I'm even collecting "hi-sec" gas to one day turn into synth boosters when I have the means to do so in "low-sec".

But these changes seem to tell me that if I want to be self sufficent and mine ore, reprocess and then build things to sell, by doing it in "hi-sec" I'm going to potentially make a loss due to my low reprocessing yield, either that or my profit won't be as high as a "low-sec" players ships and modules. I could charge slightly more to make up for the larger quantity of ore needed but then I'll just be pricing myself out of the market.

Will my only option be to start selling ore in compressed form?
Jagoff Haverford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1213 - 2014-03-22 11:35:47 UTC
So, other than the ever-present "GRRR Goons!" thing -- which is really getting tiresome -- what about the idea of buffing the mineral content of things that one can only obtain by salvaging? This could be meta 1-4 loot, or new and varied forms of metal scraps (or both).

I don't think this would (necessarily) take us all the way back to "gun mining", since I don't get the sense that gun mining is really a big deal at the moment. Just buff the mineral content of loot drops so that a max-skilled refiner can extract roughly what they are getting today from these items (perhaps a bit less).

As long as these items couldn't be player-manufactured, it would be pretty impossible to use them (at least at any large scale) for mineral compression.

That way, the mineral value of salvage could remain useful, and mineral compression would still be nerfed.

Personally, I like the idea of meta 1-4 items getting a slight uptick in their mineral content, but remaining mostly useful for their role as improved versions of meta 0 modules. The buff to mineral content could instead be rolled into new forms metal scraps. If it was done in a balanced way, this would retain the usefulness of salvaging without allowing huge amounts of compressed minerals into the game.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1214 - 2014-03-22 11:52:02 UTC
If it gets tiresome, get out of there, otherwise deal with it. Sandbox and meta game, you know? Roll After all, it's your own fault that so many people bash you.

And an increase in minerals for meta loot drops would undermine the obvious shift to more actual mining and less gun mining. If the gun mined minerals are just a bit less than their current values, it's not going to discourage this kind of activity at all. Whereas, if the gun mined minerals are only roughly half as much as their current values, it's going to take a lot more time and grind to get them. Time that can be spent by properly incorporated, integrated and with proper incentives provided miners into alliances. Blink

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#1215 - 2014-03-22 11:52:23 UTC
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
So, other than the ever-present "GRRR Goons!" thing -- which is really getting tiresome -- what about the idea of buffing the mineral content of things that one can only obtain by salvaging? This could be meta 1-4 loot, or new and varied forms of metal scraps (or both).

I don't think this would (necessarily) take us all the way back to "gun mining", since I don't get the sense that gun mining is really a big deal at the moment. Just buff the mineral content of loot drops so that a max-skilled refiner can extract roughly what they are getting today from these items (perhaps a bit less).

As long as these items couldn't be player-manufactured, it would be pretty impossible to use them (at least at any large scale) for mineral compression.

That way, the mineral value of salvage could remain useful, and mineral compression would still be nerfed.

Personally, I like the idea of meta 1-4 items getting a slight uptick in their mineral content, but remaining mostly useful for their role as improved versions of meta 0 modules. The buff to mineral content could instead be rolled into new forms metal scraps. If it was done in a balanced way, this would retain the usefulness of salvaging without allowing huge amounts of compressed minerals into the game.


Its only Grrr Goons because they make it so by their Grrr hisec or Grrr anyone who does not agree with them, so feel free to define it however you want to make it simple for you.

Gun mining is not a big deal to you, it is to some niche players like me and we find this nerf catastrophically excessive, that being said I respect your suggestion because it is a very sensible way to reduce the pain on new players and niche operators like me.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1216 - 2014-03-22 11:52:28 UTC
Any redesign for player built outposts in the pipe? If you can't solve destructible outposts, maybe at least let us change one kind of outpost into another?
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1217 - 2014-03-22 11:54:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


We arnt going to tax away that 20% because nobody would bother mining if we do. Our tax system is more advanced than that and we value getting cheaper ships to pvp with over taxing a miner.

as for why reward the risk takers, why wouldnt you? With no reward for taking on the higher risk why would you leave high sec?

There is nothing to gain from refining in null that high sec doesnt offer right now.



of course you are not going tax away 20%, but these changes let you get your tax (one more "alliance lvl income" as your grunts used to believe) and grunts will get the same or a bit more than in pos or highsec station.

and with better refine rates you automatically will get more profit from manufacturing ships for your grunts because you can more efficiently refine imported low grade ores from highsec and noone (refering to your renters and grunts) will try export high end ore to highsec and refine there.

Even wh residents will get more benefit just selling compresed ore to null outpost owner because you can offer better price than they can get reprocesing them by self at pos. Only limiting factor - jump freighter fuel costs but i bet some people already calculated possible profit from it (before official dev blog) and these percents was approved (noone from CSM complain about removing high rate mineral compresion with some modules).

where did i complain about rewarding greater risk taker? though risk / reward arguments may work on some folk who never lived outside highsec, but we both know that there is options to reduce risk to minimum value and if you got ganked - thats your own mistake.

then answer - who takes bigger risk:

a) pilot fly from lowsec (highsec) to null to mine some ore and take that ore back to lowsec (highsec) to refine
b) pilot lives in nullsec, has docking rights at outpost, intel channel, alliance/corporation members in surrounding and same systems

how about risk / reward?

do wh miners take less risk than null miners? why they cant get the same refine rates? maybe wh logistic a lot easier than in k-space?

why you and your alliance live in null if there is no reason (no reward) to live there?

why we have null sec renters if there is no reward?

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....
Ispia Jaydrath
Reib Autonomous Industries
#1218 - 2014-03-22 11:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ispia Jaydrath
TJ Grimes wrote:
Seen two posts quoting my questions and thoughts, but they also quote the first response to my questions and thoughts, so I guess they aren't directed at me? Hard to tell when someone quotes two seperate posts, so I'll ask again.

Is CCP making the assumption that people mine in high security space to sell minerals and ore?

It seems that way as they are offering the easier ore compression methods to "hi-sec" players to make up for their lower yield, allowing them to sell this compressed ore and in turn make no real dent on ISK income.

But I love the idea of collecting various materials in "hi-sec" and then turning them into the end products be it modules or ships, I'm even collecting "hi-sec" gas to one day turn into synth boosters when I have the means to do so in "low-sec".

But these changes seem to tell me that if I want to be self sufficent and mine ore, reprocess and then build things to sell, by doing it in "hi-sec" I'm going to potentially make a loss due to my low reprocessing yield, either that or my profit won't be as high as a "low-sec" players ships and modules. I could charge slightly more to make up for the larger quantity of ore needed but then I'll just be pricing myself out of the market.

Will my only option be to start selling ore in compressed form?


The volume of stuff that highsec markets move is huge. In order for them to be influenced in a meaningful way by the changes there would have to be a large number of people willing to put in a mind-numbing amount of work in order to get ore out to null, build stuff, and then take the completed products back to highsec. The margins do look reasonable, and I'm not saying some people don't do it, but it will be an exercise in boredom and frustration. There aren't a lot of people who love isk enough to put up with those working conditions.

The amount of ore you have to mine in order to build something won't change. Neither will the isk per hour you make mining.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1219 - 2014-03-22 12:01:57 UTC
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
So, other than the ever-present "GRRR Goons!" thing -- which is really getting tiresome -- what about the idea of buffing the mineral content of things that one can only obtain by salvaging? This could be meta 1-4 loot, or new and varied forms of metal scraps (or both).

I don't think this would (necessarily) take us all the way back to "gun mining", since I don't get the sense that gun mining is really a big deal at the moment. Just buff the mineral content of loot drops so that a max-skilled refiner can extract roughly what they are getting today from these items (perhaps a bit less).

As long as these items couldn't be player-manufactured, it would be pretty impossible to use them (at least at any large scale) for mineral compression.

That way, the mineral value of salvage could remain useful, and mineral compression would still be nerfed.

Personally, I like the idea of meta 1-4 items getting a slight uptick in their mineral content, but remaining mostly useful for their role as improved versions of meta 0 modules. The buff to mineral content could instead be rolled into new forms metal scraps. If it was done in a balanced way, this would retain the usefulness of salvaging without allowing huge amounts of compressed minerals into the game.


Idealy the only way to get minerals should by from mining. Miners only have one thing going for them while combat players have several which are better anyway.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#1220 - 2014-03-22 12:14:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
So, other than the ever-present "GRRR Goons!" thing -- which is really getting tiresome -- what about the idea of buffing the mineral content of things that one can only obtain by salvaging? This could be meta 1-4 loot, or new and varied forms of metal scraps (or both).

I don't think this would (necessarily) take us all the way back to "gun mining", since I don't get the sense that gun mining is really a big deal at the moment. Just buff the mineral content of loot drops so that a max-skilled refiner can extract roughly what they are getting today from these items (perhaps a bit less).

As long as these items couldn't be player-manufactured, it would be pretty impossible to use them (at least at any large scale) for mineral compression.

That way, the mineral value of salvage could remain useful, and mineral compression would still be nerfed.

Personally, I like the idea of meta 1-4 items getting a slight uptick in their mineral content, but remaining mostly useful for their role as improved versions of meta 0 modules. The buff to mineral content could instead be rolled into new forms metal scraps. If it was done in a balanced way, this would retain the usefulness of salvaging without allowing huge amounts of compressed minerals into the game.


Idealy the only way to get minerals should by from mining. Miners only have one thing going for them while combat players have several which are better anyway.


Melting down scrap for metal is totally realistic, I cannot see any reason for this not to be possible, and in any case as module drops are so poor in anoms most don't bother, its belt ratting and level 4 missions that do this, something that a high and mighty Goon has no idea of because its so beneath his kingly gaze...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp