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[Rubicon 1.1] Omnidirectional Tracking Links

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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#181 - 2014-01-21 05:01:12 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

That suggests horrible, horrible things for range unbonused hulls: RS/DNI/Geddon etc.

I've uploaded a new spreadsheet with unbonused sentries and added pre-nerf Omnis for reference: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvCLlTV8bSxNdGYtUDdvUFpaYzF4cW5waXFiNXpUSUE&usp=sharing

It's not the end of the world for unbonused sentries.




As expected, Bouncers with their already good falloff, come off best in the scripted version.
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
#182 - 2014-01-21 06:22:19 UTC  |  Edited by: v3locity
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
v3locity wrote:
Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.

Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's

Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.

That is totally unacceptable.

So you are mad that you cant do 664 DPS(2 DDAs) @ 45km +12km falloff in a cruiser any more? Name any other cruiser that can do that kind of DPS at that range.


Yea, and it will just happen to cruisers.

And the vexor navy is such a widely used ship.
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
#183 - 2014-01-21 06:27:05 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
v3locity wrote:
Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.

Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's

Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.

That is totally unacceptable.

So you are mad that you cant do 664 DPS(2 DDAs) @ 45km +12km falloff in a cruiser any more? Name any other cruiser that can do that kind of DPS at that range.

Real question here. If it's performance wise at the same point as everything else, why use drones as a primary weapon considering their drawbacks?

Trade off for being destroy-able is, the grades will still hit harder at 34km +15km falloff than any other weapon a cruiser can use.


Where do you get 34 + 15 from. I couldn't hit crap at anything over 30.

Maybe you should actually test it on the test server.
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
#184 - 2014-01-21 06:31:35 UTC  |  Edited by: v3locity
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

That suggests horrible, horrible things for range unbonused hulls: RS/DNI/Geddon etc.

I've uploaded a new spreadsheet with unbonused sentries and added pre-nerf Omnis for reference: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvCLlTV8bSxNdGYtUDdvUFpaYzF4cW5waXFiNXpUSUE&usp=sharing

It's not the end of the world for unbonused sentries.



As expected, Bouncers with their already good falloff, come off best in the scripted version.


What are you actually getting, in a ship, on the test server.

Tracking reduced from 25% to 15%

Range reduced from 25% to 7.5%

That's a huge nerf. It effects all drones.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#185 - 2014-01-21 08:21:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
stoicfaux wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

That suggests horrible, horrible things for range unbonused hulls: RS/DNI/Geddon etc.

I've uploaded a new spreadsheet with unbonused sentries and added pre-nerf Omnis for reference: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvCLlTV8bSxNdGYtUDdvUFpaYzF4cW5waXFiNXpUSUE&usp=sharing

It's not the end of the world for unbonused sentries.



It's a pretty significant hit. My current rattler, for example, comparing todays optimal ranges and DPS will be doing about 80% of that DPS at FAR worse tracking at the same range. (Uses 2 omnis)

Furthermore, it is a pretty significant hit....for no clear reason. It's not like these hulls are agile and can dictate range in a meaningful way.

I shall have to ponder if they are worth the hassle at this point, having other options open. Which is a shame, because I found them fun What?


Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Trade off for being destroy-able is, the grades will still hit harder at 34km +15km falloff than any other weapon a cruiser can use.



Trouble is how that stacks up to battleship weapons? Because drone BS can't get any more damage out than those cruisers with their primary systems either. Cruisers able to field the same drone quota as a BS shouldn't be a case for an across the board nerfing.
Minnie Ryder
Flippin DaBird Corporation 2
#186 - 2014-01-21 12:33:00 UTC
On SiSi, Show Info doesn't take the new scripted omnidirs into account at all. Further numbers would be taken out of my arse, so I abstain.

Fitting window still shows dps of highest drone in the bay, not taking deployed drones into account at all.

Deployed drones show no sign of the Ishtar's bonuses, shows as if they were completely unbonused.
Diivil
Magellanic Itg
Goonswarm Federation
#187 - 2014-01-21 12:52:19 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Sentries are a weapon system with strong upsides and strong downsides, which is one of the best things about them from a design perspective. We do not want to homogenize them with other weapon systems. The downsides of Sentries, foremost of which are immobility and destructibility, require the weapon system to have strong upsides as compensation. However we believe that the best primary method to balance the upsides of Sentry Drones is through the drones themselves, rather than by giving them access to a weapon upgrade that is so clearly superior to competing modules.


Coming back to this I'd like to ask how are you ever going to find a balance when there's a ship class in the game that doesn't care about either of those two "downsides"? Or is the design goal here such that they get the upsides for free? Sure either of those things might be considered downsides for a ship that can only carry 15 drones and does actually move around. But for a capital pilot does not give a single **** about moving or having his drones destroyed because he can vomit out 3000 more without resupplying if he wants.
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#188 - 2014-01-21 13:11:59 UTC
Diivil wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Sentries are a weapon system with strong upsides and strong downsides, which is one of the best things about them from a design perspective. We do not want to homogenize them with other weapon systems. The downsides of Sentries, foremost of which are immobility and destructibility, require the weapon system to have strong upsides as compensation. However we believe that the best primary method to balance the upsides of Sentry Drones is through the drones themselves, rather than by giving them access to a weapon upgrade that is so clearly superior to competing modules.


Coming back to this I'd like to ask how are you ever going to find a balance when there's a ship class in the game that doesn't care about either of those two "downsides"? Or is the design goal here such that they get the upsides for free? Sure either of those things might be considered downsides for a ship that can only carry 15 drones and does actually move around. But for a capital pilot does not give a single **** about moving or having his drones destroyed because he can vomit out 3000 more without resupplying if he wants.


You have the same ships / drones available to you.

Quit being a coward cry baby and use them.
Diivil
Magellanic Itg
Goonswarm Federation
#189 - 2014-01-21 13:22:34 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:


You have the same ships / drones available to you.

Quit being a coward cry baby and use them.


What does me not using a carrier have to do with differences in weapon system balance between different ship classes? Or is it your opinion that carriers should only be fought with carriers? You have an odd view of balance if that's the case.
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#190 - 2014-01-21 14:39:06 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The results of this change for Omni balance are that pilots will now need to choose between having excellent range bonuses and excellent tracking bonuses. Like Tracking Computers Omnis will now provide stronger bonuses to tracking than to range.
Omnis will now provide a bonus to falloff instead of just optimal range, for the first time increasing the utility of sentry falloff in people's value judgements.


So your solution to this is:

copy Tracking Computer 1 -> Omnidirectional 1
copy Tracking Computer 2 -> Omnidirectional 2

Edit activation cost

done

So you take Omnidirectional 1 with 20% range and 20% tracking bonus and make it 5% range 10% tracking and add 10% falloff.

Omnidirectional 2 from 25% range and 25% tracking bonus and make it 7.5% range 15% tracking and add 15% falloff.

Scripted:

Omnidirectional 1 scripted tracking speed 25%, scripted optimal range 10% range and add 20% falloff

Omnidirectional 2 scripted tracking speed 30%, scripted optimal range 15% range and add 30% falloff

Falloff does not equal range and is a huge nerf. 15% range does not equal 2 mods with 25% range

Scripted tracking speed 30% does not equal 2 mods with 25%.


You haven't even come close to the line you're feeding us above.

Are you the only one working on this?
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#191 - 2014-01-21 14:44:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Arsine Mayhem
Diivil wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:


You have the same ships / drones available to you.

Quit being a coward cry baby and use them.


What does me not using a carrier have to do with differences in weapon system balance between different ship classes? Or is it your opinion that carriers should only be fought with carriers? You have an odd view of balance if that's the case.


N3/PL risks huge assets and you want to take them out with a big pile of unskilled junk ships. So you cry because you can't.

Risk vs reward. You are to scared to bring on the ships needed and then cry about it. Simple as that.
Nash MacAllister
Air
The Initiative.
#192 - 2014-01-21 14:56:28 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:

Well a few people have said the Domi in its current form is closer to a faction or pirate BS than a T1. TBH it would have made more sense if the bonuses of the Navy and the T1 Domi were reversed. As far as the rattler goes very few people train up for them anymore and the ones you now see are generally people that already flew them. Hence the massive price drop in Rattler hulls the last 12 months.


I concur with the Domi/DNI comment. Regarding Rattlers though, so what? The Rattlesnake requires one hell of a train to fly well and I don't much appreciate CCP's kick in the teeth on drones when what they need to fix are 2 hulls that they theoretically just "fixed" and created these issues. As far as PVE, most of the supposed issues are from people crying about not being able to AFK mission with sentries due to the AI changes, and I don't much care what they whine about as it really doesn't matter. But having significant SP in drones, and the associated Rattler skills, it is total BS to now have a ship and weapons system that is non-viable for all the wrong reasons.

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#193 - 2014-01-21 16:17:54 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Sentry falloff is not an issue. Why punish sentry users who must already must remain stationary to use their weapons?

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

The MSI could have been awesome for EVE but got ruined because of thoughtless nerfs.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#194 - 2014-01-21 18:23:08 UTC
I feel a bit cheated that a omni scripted for range will still have worse range than before, in addition to providing 0 tracking.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#195 - 2014-01-21 18:48:07 UTC
From what I'm reading it's a pretty bad nerf across the board. I'm not too sad because with the new drone aggro system they're already a PITA for PVE and the only PVP ships I have that use them is the Prophecy and Armageddon. I'll just fly something else if all what people are saying is true.

Part of me is sad because one of my pilots was a "Drone specialist" but what can you do... I'll write him a new bio Cool
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#196 - 2014-01-21 18:57:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Keuvo
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The results of this change for Omni balance are that pilots will now need to choose between having excellent range bonuses and excellent tracking bonuses. Like Tracking Computers Omnis will now provide stronger bonuses to tracking than to range.
Omnis will now provide a bonus to falloff instead of just optimal range, for the first time increasing the utility of sentry falloff in people's value judgements.


So your solution to this is:

copy Tracking Computer 1 -> Omnidirectional 1
copy Tracking Computer 2 -> Omnidirectional 2

Edit activation cost

done

So you take Omnidirectional 1 with 20% range and 20% tracking bonus and make it 5% range 10% tracking and add 10% falloff.

Omnidirectional 2 from 25% range and 25% tracking bonus and make it 7.5% range 15% tracking and add 15% falloff.

Scripted:

Omnidirectional 1 scripted tracking speed 25%, scripted optimal range 10% range and add 20% falloff

Omnidirectional 2 scripted tracking speed 30%, scripted optimal range 15% range and add 30% falloff

Falloff does not equal range and is a huge nerf. 15% range does not equal 2 mods with 25% range

Scripted tracking speed 30% does not equal 2 mods with 25%.


You haven't even come close to the line you're feeding us above.

Are you the only one working on this?


This is a 100% classic Fozzie heavyhanded nerf with the illusion of a possible buff to the drones themselves ("However we believe that the best primary method to balance the upsides of Sentry Drones is through the drones themselves") which of course does not happen at the same time as the nerf to their bonus mods. This buff will of course never come, or will come 2 years down the line.

It also ignores the fact that gun tracking can be modified by both tracking computers and tracking enhancers (mid and low slots) whereas drone tracking has only a midslot module to modify tracking and range.

I loled at you noticing the copy + paste aspect of this change. The last 2-3 expansions have been 90% copy and paste of existing crap or variable changes in the database.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#197 - 2014-01-21 19:22:21 UTC
And another thing, the 'competing modules' are attached to ships which can move and fire, which can manage the tracking through piloting. Sentry boats do not have that option - they can't minimize angular,transversal velocities.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#198 - 2014-01-21 23:15:34 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The rules:
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Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

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Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

30. Abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers is prohibited.

CCP operate a zero tolerance policy on abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers. This includes but is not limited to personal attacks, trolling, “outing” of CCP employee or ISD volunteer player identities, and the use of any former player identities when referring to the aforementioned parties.
Our forums are designed to be a place where players and developers can exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who attack or abuse employees of CCP, or ISD volunteers, will be permanently banned from the EVE Online forums across all their accounts with no recourse, and may also be subject to action against their game accounts.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Tika Hemah
Doomheim
#199 - 2014-01-22 00:04:58 UTC
Minnie Ryder wrote:
On SiSi, Show Info doesn't take the new scripted omnidirs into account at all. Further numbers would be taken out of my arse, so I abstain.

Fitting window still shows dps of highest drone in the bay, not taking deployed drones into account at all.

Deployed drones show no sign of the Ishtar's bonuses, shows as if they were completely unbonused.



Just went on sisi to test but can't get actually in game numbers.

1) Show info in station is not helpful because can't activate omni.

2) undock but show info still don't show effects of activated omni whether drones are in drone bay or out in space (in fact, out in space drone show no bonus from the hull neither).

Please fix this so we can get acutal in game numbers and effects of additional rigs like drone scope chip.
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#200 - 2014-01-22 01:37:21 UTC
Tika Hemah wrote:
Minnie Ryder wrote:
On SiSi, Show Info doesn't take the new scripted omnidirs into account at all. Further numbers would be taken out of my arse, so I abstain.

Fitting window still shows dps of highest drone in the bay, not taking deployed drones into account at all.

Deployed drones show no sign of the Ishtar's bonuses, shows as if they were completely unbonused.



Just went on sisi to test but can't get actually in game numbers.

1) Show info in station is not helpful because can't activate omni.

2) undock but show info still don't show effects of activated omni whether drones are in drone bay or out in space (in fact, out in space drone show no bonus from the hull neither).

Please fix this so we can get acutal in game numbers and effects of additional rigs like drone scope chip.


You assume the numbers the game shows will be what you actually get?

With the display of math skills so far I wouldn't count on it. You need to find something to shoot at and see what you effectively get at different ranges.