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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

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Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#881 - 2014-01-16 00:40:25 UTC
Querns wrote:
An example: http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=15766
A FN 10mn afterburner destroys 4 million isk for every 12,000 LP used to make it.


How many manhours were destroyed working on the ESS?

No sig.
Nyan Lafisques
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#882 - 2014-01-16 00:42:30 UTC
Why not just add LP for killing rats in Null, or something similar ?
Droneland is already bad, and now we have to deal with even worst bounties ? Obviously nobody's gonna use the ESS so...
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#883 - 2014-01-16 00:44:08 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
Querns wrote:
An example: http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=15766
A FN 10mn afterburner destroys 4 million isk for every 12,000 LP used to make it.


How many manhours were destroyed working on the ESS?

Fortunately, anyone with any actual experience in this field knows that manhours are both A) a poor way to measure software development efficacy, and 2) are not generally fungible between different programming projects, so this sort of question is useless at best.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#884 - 2014-01-16 00:44:11 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

How out of date are those minutes again?

They are the most recent minutes and there has been no significant changes to nullsec ratting between then and now that would suppose it was out of date. SoniClover is wrong about isk faucets being a problem, and I know that because the independent CCP employee whose job it is to look at the data and understand what it means reviewed the data closely and said so.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Jase Fairimor
Doomheim
#885 - 2014-01-16 00:44:14 UTC
I keep hearing that if you use it correctly you gain 5%.

I have to argue that is most likely not true as the time it takes to manage it and protect it are keeping "steel from target "so to speak and is time you aren't ratting therefore ...

Overall isk/hr will go down in most cases I feel.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#886 - 2014-01-16 00:46:16 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

How out of date are those minutes again?

They are the most recent minutes and there has been no significant changes to nullsec ratting between then and now that would suppose it was out of date. SoniClover is wrong about isk faucets being a problem, and I know that because the independent CCP employee whose job it is to look at the data and understand what it means reviewed the data closely and said so.

The same independant employee that said tech was fine?
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#887 - 2014-01-16 00:47:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.


Now we're getting somewhere. I'd ask for figures on the breakdown on ISK generated by bounties to demonstrate what proportion was generated by 0.0 as opposed to lowsec and highsec, but I don't expect those figures to be forthcoming.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#888 - 2014-01-16 00:48:30 UTC
Kais Fiddler wrote:
Angry Mustache wrote:
The Weaselior/Aryth dunktrain has no brakes

It relies on bad posting by ccp devs, however. Which gradually will ground to a stop, sadly.


After the economist report dunking I'll be shocked if we get another. I just don't understand the outright refusal to even consider that this might have been a bad idea.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#889 - 2014-01-16 00:48:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
PotatoOverdose wrote:

The same independant employee that said tech was fine?

I don't know, you find me a specific quote like I found and we'll discuss. But even assuming you find one (and I doubt it, I assume you've got no idea what you're talking about) tech was not an economic problem, which is EyjoG's specialty, it was a game balance problem, which is not. SoniClover claimed the bounties were an economic problem, and he's wrong.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#890 - 2014-01-16 00:48:44 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.


the amount of ISK you can make in Nullsec is still pretty damn low if you look at the work and coordination it takes to be able to harvest it, especially compared to income based on highsec missions, wormhole PvE and Factional Warfare ( i know that FW is an ISK-sink)

If you want to minimize inflation you should increase the costs for other stuff in the game. especially the prices for production lines in highsec stations are ridiculously low and could easily be increased by a factor of 100 without hurting anyone producing anything in highsec
CCP SoniClover wrote:

This is subjective. Some will feel the risk is not worth the gain, some will feel the gain is worth the risk.


nope, it's not. it's to low for anyone to seriously consider putting down an ESS without having two blue regions in each direction.

once again:

The idea is great, the numbers need tuning. if you want to minimize inflation, take money from highsec industrialists by increasing the cost of production lines and/or sales tax
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#891 - 2014-01-16 00:51:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
It's absolutely stupid to argue with a Dev about whether or not he's correct in that a huge amount of ISK (bounties) come in from nullsec.

They have the numbers. We don't.

That doesn't make the ESS any better of an idea, though.

This game needs more simplified and streamlined. understandable mechanics.

Not weird, arbitrary oddities...
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#892 - 2014-01-16 00:53:25 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

The same independant employee that said tech was fine?

I don't know, you find me a specific quote like I found and we'll discuss. But even assuming you find one (and I doubt it, I assume you've got no idea what you're talking about) tech was not an economic problem, which is EyjoG's specialty, it was a game balance problem, which is not. SoniClover claimed the bounties were an economic problem, and he's wrong.


even if SoniClover was right, the solution he proposes is still wrong ;)
Omanth Bathana
Doomheim
#893 - 2014-01-16 00:54:42 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:

They have the numbers. We don't.

That doesn't make the ESS any better of an idea, though.


This is entirely the point Weaselior is trying to make. The same numbers CCP has from its in-house economist were shared with the CSM and subsequently made public. The entire point is that, according the player's understanding of the role of the CSM, we have the same numbers.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#894 - 2014-01-16 00:55:22 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
It's absolutely stupid to argue with a Dev about whether or not he's correct in that a huge amount of ISK (bounties) come in from nullsec.

They have the numbers. We don't.

That doesn't make the ESS any better of an idea, though.

This game needs more simplified and streamlined. understandable mechanics.

Not weird, arbitrary oddities...

CCP has the numbers. That doesn't mean SoniClover looked at them, or understood what they mean. That's why I'm pointing to a CCP employee who did look at the numbers, did understand what they mean, and said the opposite of what SoniClover is saying here.

I don't have the numbers, but EyjoG does.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#895 - 2014-01-16 00:58:48 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Weaselior wrote:

SoniClover claimed the bounties were an economic problem, and he's wrong.

Ah yes, I forgot that Goonswarm receives the same up to the minute metrics from CCP that are available to the devs. My apologies, Goonsire. Clearly, that's how you know he's wrong, right? Right? Roll

Honestly, most of the posts in this thread can be summed up as:
"Boohooohooo, I don't want to fight for my 5%"
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#896 - 2014-01-16 00:59:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Weaselior wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
It's absolutely stupid to argue with a Dev about whether or not he's correct in that a huge amount of ISK (bounties) come in from nullsec.

They have the numbers. We don't.

That doesn't make the ESS any better of an idea, though.

This game needs more simplified and streamlined. understandable mechanics.

Not weird, arbitrary oddities...

CCP has the numbers. That doesn't mean SoniClover looked at them, or understood what they mean. That's why I'm pointing to a CCP employee who did look at the numbers, did understand what they mean, and said the opposite of what SoniClover is saying here.

I don't have the numbers, but EyjoG does.


Doesn't the quote say "as of 2012?"

Maybe there's been a severe botting outbreak since then - who knows. Similar things have happened in other games I have played in the past.

Giant mechanic changes would come with a huge priority given to edging bots out of the market.

My favorite anti-bot addition was in Path of Exile -- they added supermobs that randomly and rarely spawn that are much tougher, stronger, and equipped with better than AI than normal mobs.

Bot killers, basically. Active players never minded them much because they had increased rewards.

But that's a solution that adds content to the game -- instead of a weird contrived anchorable widget thing and system-wide bank accounts.
commander aze
#897 - 2014-01-16 01:02:19 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Turelus wrote:


* Why the 5% loss in bounties instead of just making the module appealing on its own?


Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.

Turelus wrote:

* Why isn't it a seeded BPO/BPC instead of buy it now item?


That is mostly for lore reasons - the empires are coughing up money themselves because they´re hoping to draw null sec pilots back into the fold.


Turelus wrote:

* Why should we risk 20% of our members income for such a small gain?


This is subjective. Some will feel the risk is not worth the gain, some will feel the gain is worth the risk.


Wow drones lands blew from the start thanks for making it suck worse... thanks for that ... Also countering inflation by hitting ratting is like live trapping rats... people will continue to do it they will find ways to do it that male more isk. And in addition there going to still make that money plus more.

It's a bad idea gone worse...that some sort of perceived benefit makes you think it's the way to do. You want to fight inflation. Alliance level taxing. In addition to that alter high sec office fees. High sec tax rates.

The deployable will be destroyed in every system or stolen from via ceptards because they don't have to hack it or anything. And they have enough time to get out before a fleet can get after them... it's stupid and silly.

Commander Aze For CSM XII

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=506400

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Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#898 - 2014-01-16 01:02:36 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
It's absolutely stupid to argue with a Dev about whether or not he's correct in that a huge amount of ISK (bounties) come in from nullsec.

They have the numbers. We don't.

That doesn't make the ESS any better of an idea, though.

This game needs more simplified and streamlined. understandable mechanics.

Not weird, arbitrary oddities...


Regardless of whether or not more ->bounties<- come from null, more ->value<- to the individual comes from using the Osmon level 4 agent. That is reflected by the entire active population of Vale of the Silent (both GENTS and PBLRD sov space) being below Osmon and its surrounding couple of systems (where the runners also get sent).
Turelus
Utassi Security
#899 - 2014-01-16 01:03:44 UTC
I'm not posting this to be an ass but your posts have been somewhat contradicting in regards to the ISK sink.

CCP SoniClover wrote:
If you use an ESS as a ratter your income will be higher than pre-1.1. If hostiles enter the system you have various choices in how to respond, some of them can lead to fights, it´s up to you. Don´t assume that anyone that stumbles into the system will automatically be able to steal everything, again, the likelihood of this is up to you. It´s only a nerf if you choose it to be.


CCP SoniClover wrote:
Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.


If the goal of the 5% decrease in bounties received is to reduce ISK coming into the game why are you developing a module which you're telling everyone will increase their income from what it is now.
The only way this would work as an ISK sink is as someone else posted earlier you make the ESS so repulsive that no one wants to use it and just takes the 5% income hit.

You can't tell us you're worried about inflation and income of ISK while producing modules which are going to increase that if used correctly. Imagine if against all the laws of EVE everyone made a pact to not mess with each others ESS, you then just increased the ISK coming into the game.

I think CCP needs to put its hand up and admit that right now the ESS is not something which should be released in Rubicon 1.1 and take it to F&I to work over with the community. If there is an inflation issue speak openly about it with the community and tell us you need to take steps to fix it which will actually fix it. We don't want to see the economy go to hell any more than you.

I will once again say that if you want this as an ISK sink make it turn ISK into LP like myself and others have said.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#900 - 2014-01-16 01:06:18 UTC
Turelus wrote:
I'm not posting this to be an ass but your posts have been somewhat contradicting in regards to the ISK sink.

CCP SoniClover wrote:
If you use an ESS as a ratter your income will be higher than pre-1.1. If hostiles enter the system you have various choices in how to respond, some of them can lead to fights, it´s up to you. Don´t assume that anyone that stumbles into the system will automatically be able to steal everything, again, the likelihood of this is up to you. It´s only a nerf if you choose it to be.


CCP SoniClover wrote:
Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.


If the goal of the 5% decrease in bounties received is to reduce ISK coming into the game why are you developing a module which you're telling everyone will increase their income from what it is now.
The only way this would work as an ISK sink is as someone else posted earlier you make the ESS so repulsive that no one wants to use it and just takes the 5% income hit.

You can't tell us you're worried about inflation and income of ISK while producing modules which are going to increase that if used correctly. Imagine if against all the laws of EVE everyone made a pact to not mess with each others ESS, you then just increased the ISK coming into the game.

I think CCP needs to put its hand up and admit that right now the ESS is not something which should be released in Rubicon 1.1 and take it to F&I to work over with the community. If there is an inflation issue speak openly about it with the community and tell us you need to take steps to fix it which will actually fix it. We don't want to see the economy go to hell any more than you.

I will once again say that if you want this as an ISK sink make it turn ISK into LP like myself and others have said.


Because he is trying to invent excuses for the creation and botched implementation after the fact.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.