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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Rubicon 1.1] Mobile Micro Jump Unit and Mobile Scan Inhibitor

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Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#441 - 2014-01-08 03:38:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Erasmus Phoenix
Sure, both sides can benefit from the MSIs, but only in a way which is going to discourage combat. Discouraging combat is the last thing we need, particularly in a way that pushes everyone into blobs at the same time.

They will hurt a huge variety of people doing a huge variety of things.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#442 - 2014-01-08 04:21:31 UTC
There is no positive aspect to the MSI as far as PVP is concerned.

It is certainly not going to encourage more PVP.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#443 - 2014-01-08 04:23:48 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
There is no positive aspect to the MSI as far as PVP is concerned.

It is certainly not going to encourage more PVP.



Well... I suppose that depends if you count suiciding "Alts in shuttles" as PvP...
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#444 - 2014-01-08 04:55:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
There is no positive aspect to the MSI as far as PVP is concerned.

It is certainly not going to encourage more PVP.



Well... I suppose that depends if you count suiciding "Alts in shuttles" as PvP...


Don't be so afraid to lose your ship, its just pixels. MSI is about providing risk vs reward and balance. Its about time.

The MSI is easy enough to scan down. You can have probes in space less time than it would take to scan someone down normally, which means you have a better chance of getting the jump on them, IF you are willing to take a risk.

If you bear-rats want that SAFETY you are so accustomed to, you will have to send a scout first, in which case your prey will also be given time and options. Whoever thought of this mechanic should be given an award as this gives much needed balance to the game on more than one level.

Adapt or die.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#445 - 2014-01-08 04:57:18 UTC
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
There is no positive aspect to the MSI as far as PVP is concerned.

It is certainly not going to encourage more PVP.



Well... I suppose that depends if you count suiciding "Alts in shuttles" as PvP...

I can't decide if "Alts in Shuttles Online" is better than "OGB Alts Online".

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#446 - 2014-01-08 05:07:31 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
There is no positive aspect to the MSI as far as PVP is concerned.

It is certainly not going to encourage more PVP.



Well... I suppose that depends if you count suiciding "Alts in shuttles" as PvP...

I can't decide if "Alts in Shuttles Online" is better than "OGB Alts Online".


Everyone will now need a shuttle alt as well as their booster and falcon alts...
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#447 - 2014-01-08 05:07:51 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
There is no positive aspect to the MSI as far as PVP is concerned.

It is certainly not going to encourage more PVP.



Well... I suppose that depends if you count suiciding "Alts in shuttles" as PvP...

I can't decide if "Alts in Shuttles Online" is better than "OGB Alts Online".


or cry. pirate tears are the best tears. Bear

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#448 - 2014-01-08 05:08:24 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
There is no positive aspect to the MSI as far as PVP is concerned.

It is certainly not going to encourage more PVP.



Well... I suppose that depends if you count suiciding "Alts in shuttles" as PvP...


Don't be so afraid to lose your ship, its just pixels. MSI is about providing risk vs reward and balance. Its about time.

The MSI is easy enough to scan down. You can have probes in space less time than it would take to scan someone down normally, which means you have a better chance of getting the jump on them, IF you are willing to take a risk.

If you bear-rats want that SAFETY you are so accustomed to, you will have to send a scout first, in which case your prey will also be given time and options. Whoever thought of this mechanic should be given an award as this gives much needed balance to the game on more than one level.

Adapt or die.


yes, because it's the people doing the hunting that are safe, and because I am obviously somebody who never does PvE.

I'm looking at this from both sides. It's a bad idea.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#449 - 2014-01-08 05:13:43 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Don't be so afraid to lose your ship, its just pixels. MSI is about providing risk vs reward and balance. Its about time.

Repeating the mantra doesn't make it true. The MSI decreases risk to ratters, the group which is already at less risk between the two.
Also making the choice not to lose ships unnecessarily is not the same as being afraid to lose ships. For most of us winning fights is more fun than losing them pointlessly (not saying that can't be fun though).

Priestess Lin wrote:
The MSI is easy enough to scan down. You can have probes in space less time than it would take to scan someone down normally, which means you have a better chance of getting the jump on them, IF you are willing to take a risk.

Hahaha no. Because if there are more than one (you'd be stupid to deploy just one) that decreases the chance of getting the right one significantly. In any case ratters will see you coming long before you've scanned them down.
I should also mention that prior to this you could use regular core scan probes to find the complex, whereas now you'd need the Comcast scan probes to find the MSI.

Priestess Lin wrote:
If you bear-rats want that SAFETY you are so accustomed to,

What about the bears that want even more safety than they already have, who are clamoring for this change without any regard for balance?

Priestess Lin wrote:
you will have to send a scout first, in which case your prey will also be given options. Whoever thought of this mechanic should be given an award as this gives much needed balance to the game on more than one level.

Adapt or die.

They already have several options. I have never, as a ratter, thought that I needed to be safer.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#450 - 2014-01-08 05:16:12 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
There is no positive aspect to the MSI as far as PVP is concerned.

It is certainly not going to encourage more PVP.



Well... I suppose that depends if you count suiciding "Alts in shuttles" as PvP...

I can't decide if "Alts in Shuttles Online" is better than "OGB Alts Online".


or cry. pirate tears are the best tears. Bear

I only see stupid gloating from worthless carebear scrubs. The same people who would cry the loudest should CCP reconsider going through with this plan.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#451 - 2014-01-08 05:37:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Priestess Lin wrote:
or cry. pirate tears are the best tears. Bear

I'm not sure you understand. MSIs are the sort of mechanic that I would (and I will) abuse the hell out of to troll people and generally have a merry time ruining their fun. This goes alike for PvE and PvP.

A lot of people will use it to their advantage to either dissuade, escape, or destroy anyone who approaches their MSI-entrenched position. It is so powerful and so many people will use it that entire swathes of playstyles would be negatively affected. Ganking nullsec ratters aside, I expect negative impacts on: all PvP in FW space (complex shellgame), solo/smallgang PvP elsewhere (can't afford bringing a probe launcher all the time), any activity that involves conflict around missions, deadspace or other scanned locations (e.g. w-space, because core probes are automatically no longer sufficient), securing a nullsec system (and you thought AFK cloakers were problematic?), and a variety of other niches.

MSIs sacrifice all of this to benefit whom? Carebears, and PvPers who like to camp / lay traps for one-sided uninteresting brutal murders.

From where I'm standing, I see MSIs having the potential of wrecking a variety of dynamic player interaction while encouraging static gameplay. Eve does not need to be more boring and static.

So can all this jazz be labeled tears? Sure, look at them: Cry
But they're hardly "pirate" tears. More like "player who likes interacting with others" tears. Feel free to continue gloating about how you want less dynamic interaction in Eve, if that's what you think is good for the game.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#452 - 2014-01-08 05:38:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
The MSI decreases risk to ratters, the group which is already at less risk between the two.

I have never, as a ratter, thought that I needed to be safer.


Besides being wrong about who takes more risk, we aren't just talking about ratters, but nice try.

Are you going to also claim say that pirates are taking more risk than miners or any other pve profession that currently screams "BIG FAT TARGET" for any grief monkey that wanders into the system and presses D-scan? Do really think that is fair? That EVE should be a game where sheep are produced for slaughter at the press of a button?

The MSI is an excellent layer of protection from pirates who have it all too easy. For the first time in EVE, pirates will be forced to take risks if they want a better chance at the rewards. Why should aggressors have all the advantages after all?

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#453 - 2014-01-08 05:41:44 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Comcast scan probes

Not Xfinity scan probes? Those are much better! (they have a different skin)

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#454 - 2014-01-08 05:42:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Erasmus Phoenix
It's possible to add additional FUN tools for ratters without wrecking FW and W-space and making core scan probes completely and utterly useless for most things.

Pirates do take at least some risks. The most fun fight is a fair one. It's better to have people who are more likely to actually fight properly than to have a bunch of people hidden away. That's going to make the game more enjoyable for everyone
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#455 - 2014-01-08 05:47:39 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Comcast scan probes

Not Xfinity scan probes? Those are much better! (they have a different skin)

Haha, autocorrect.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#456 - 2014-01-08 05:48:24 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
For the first time in EVE, pirates will be forced to take risks if they want a better chance at the rewards.


You keep repeating that. Have you ever taken the risk of having no information at all? Minimize local, don't use d-scan, and try to calculate what "risks" you can take. Can you warp to that belt safely? Is there a guy waiting for you in that anomaly? Is this FW complex going to have just a rat in it, a farmer who just warps out, a solo pvper, or a gang of 10 guys who alpha you? Who knows?

So how can you overcome this? Scouting? What if you're solo, or if dedicating a ship of your gang to being a disposable scout would cripple the fleet? Use alts or have a bigger fleet? In other words, multiboxing and blobbing, both very dirty words for very limiting and unfriendly playstyles.


Just clarifying... that's the risk you're looking for, and its effects?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#457 - 2014-01-08 05:53:14 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:
For the first time in EVE, pirates will be forced to take risks if they want a better chance at the rewards.


You keep repeating that. Have you ever taken the risk of having no information at all? Minimize local, don't use d-scan, and try to calculate what "risks" you can take. Can you warp to that belt safely? Is there a guy waiting for you in that anomaly? Is this FW complex going to have just a rat in it, a farmer who just warps out, a solo pvper, or a gang of 10 guys who alpha you? Who knows?

So how can you overcome this? Scouting? What if you're solo, or if dedicating a ship of your gang to being a disposable scout would cripple the fleet? Use alts or have a bigger fleet? In other words, multiboxing and blobbing, both very dirty words for very limiting and unfriendly playstyles.


Just clarifying... that's the risk you're looking for, and its effects?


Really, these things are yet another change that will hurt solo PvP.
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#458 - 2014-01-08 06:01:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
less thoughtful pirates will say, " well whut if there is a bunch of MSI in the system, then the bears will have a lots of time to see the probes!! We will nevur catch em!"

If someone has invested into multiple MSI, cutting into their profits, they deserve the extra protection. This is just what you pirates are always telling your victims about taking precautions to not get exploded. If you want to counter this you can easily bring more people and then you will be able to scan down multiple MSI quickly and have a better chance of the probes not being detected. And these things only last 2 hours so its not like they are going to be everywhere at all times, if you see them, you will know something is going down.. You have the tools at your disposal but you refuse to use them. It is shameful how some people are opposed to these great mechanics that will bring more challenging game play and risk/ reward to the game for pirates where it hardly existed before.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#459 - 2014-01-08 06:07:51 UTC
There's a big difference between having extra protection and having every advantage there is.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#460 - 2014-01-08 06:08:03 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
people say, " well whut if there is a bunch of MSI in the system, then the bears will have a lots of time to see the probes!! We will nevur catch em!"

If someone has invested into multiple MSI, cutting into their profits, they deserve the extra protection. This is just what you pirates are always telling people about taking precautions to not get exploded. If you want to counter this you can easily bring more people and then you will be able to scan down multiple MSI quickly and have a better chance of the probes not being detected. You have the tools at your disposal but you refuse to use them. It is shameful how some people are opposed to these great mechanics that will bring more challenging game play and risk/ reward to the game for pirates where it hardly existed before.


The risk is that someone actually forms up to fight. Then everyone gets a good story, and some fun.

I absolutely hate people who repeatedly go for utterly defenseless targets, and I'm not a fan of AFK cloakers in systems. at all. But this is not the way to go about fixing things like that, because it just means that more people will be not fighting. And that's not risk or reward.