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[Rubicon 1.1] Mobile Micro Jump Unit and Mobile Scan Inhibitor

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Author
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#461 - 2014-01-08 06:15:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
There's a big difference between having extra protection and having every advantage there is.


Bullshit. Thats what you bear-rats have had for years. How do you think you are entitled to blow up another player that doesn't make any mistakes?

Why should aggressors have all the advantages? If anything, defenders should have the advantage. God forbid pirates should have to take any real risks, right?Roll
Sorry kids, 100% intel days are over. Time to HTFU.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049

Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#462 - 2014-01-08 06:23:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Erasmus Phoenix
Priestess Lin wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
There's a big difference between having extra protection and having every advantage there is.


Bullshit. Thats what you bear-rats have had for years. How do you think you are entitled to blow up another player that doesn't make any mistakes?

God forbid pirates should have to take any real risks, right?Roll

Sorry kids, 100% intel days are over. Time to HTFU. Adapt or die.


Yes, because not being prepared to fight and not stopping whatever you're doing and getting prepared to defend yourself or at least hide when someone comes in is not making a mistake. Of course.

I live in a goddamn wormhole. We have little enough information as it is. This is taking too much.
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#463 - 2014-01-08 06:37:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
There's a big difference between having extra protection and having every advantage there is.


Bullshit. Thats what you bear-rats have had for years. How do you think you are entitled to blow up another player that doesn't make any mistakes?

God forbid pirates should have to take any real risks, right?Roll

Sorry kids, 100% intel days are over. Time to HTFU. Adapt or die.


Yes, because not being prepared to fight and not stopping whatever you're doing and getting prepared to defend yourself or at least hide when someone comes in is not making a mistake. Of course.

.


This is just what i'm talking about, just because you come into the system, everyone is forced to stop what they are doing and wait you out. Getting into any ships to fight you causes you to flee. MSI takes away the power your mere presence has and forces you to take a risk for a greater chance at a reward. You can't pick and chose all your engagements anymore if you want to be an aggressor. Risk/reward should be for all, and MSI is an excellent balancing tool.

I can't believe you are complaining about wormholes. As an aggressor, you have the advantage of gathering intel on your opponents that they don't have, you know where they live and can get their numbers. With a little preparation, you shouldn't have any problems catching people and avoiding what you can't handle. But you EVE pirates have never been known for being very bright, just for having it easy.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#464 - 2014-01-08 08:10:54 UTC
Lin, do you legitimately think that repeating the same stuff over and over, post after post, really accomplishes anything?

As a change of pace, please just answer one thing: do you believe that requiring alts or a large gang to have any intel will lead to interesting player interactions? If so, why and how?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#465 - 2014-01-08 09:04:14 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
There is no positive aspect to the MSI as far as PVP is concerned.

It is certainly not going to encourage more PVP.



It could be interesting if it was made alongside local changes. For a complete metagame change. But as it is.. is just another ave the failbears" module.
But the greatest offfender is the other.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#466 - 2014-01-08 09:05:52 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
22 pages and the response thus far has been clearly lackluster or outright negative. Standard CCP dev policy will thus be to leave this for another week without comment, make a minor (read: token) adjustment - all the while indicating that testing and feedback indicate the new mobile structures will perform as intended (and that we can't see the "full" picture). Meanwhile, preparations to essentialy roll these out for Rubicon 1.1 in their present state proceed uninterrupted...



It is just a vocal minority spamming the thread with one-sided nonsense. They are absolutely livid and afraid over the thought that EVE might get a little harder for them and that they might actually have to use their brain to get kills. The MSI is an excellent tool that will force aggressors to take risks for a change while simultaneously providing a much needed layer of protection for PVE ops. Adapt or die.



No, its a wise group of people postign with supporting examples of breaking effects.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Tyby
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#467 - 2014-01-08 09:07:49 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
There's a big difference between having extra protection and having every advantage there is.


Bullshit. Thats what you bear-rats have had for years. How do you think you are entitled to blow up another player that doesn't make any mistakes?

Why should aggressors have all the advantages? If anything, defenders should have the advantage. God forbid pirates should have to take any real risks, right?Roll
Sorry kids, 100% intel days are over. Time to HTFU.


are you trolling?if so, pls stop
if not... let me give you a piece of advice: stay in high sec! there are no risks there.... oh wait, in fact there are some risks even there...
s let me try another piece of advice: don't undock! you may lose your ship, you know...
Jori McKie
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#468 - 2014-01-08 09:14:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
Mobile Micro Jump Unit
Makes kiting ships obsolete in most combat formats, except very large 0.0 fleet fights when you can instantly kill the Unit. In solo, small and med scale this Unit is a get out of jail for free card for the non kiting ships.
Even if you increase the spool up time to something like a 60sec or more, it will be still broken. The only way to balance this Unit is you can't use it, if you are pointed or scrammed. Implementing it without both tackle methods preventing the use of the Unit will kill any kiting engangments in non large 0.0 fleet fights.

Mobile Scan Inhibitor
This will be balanced, if you forbid the use in deadspace (any space that has to be accessed via an acceleration gate) and WH environment.


The MMJU will have a very bad impact on combat if you don't balance it correct.
One example:
4x brawling ships gang including 1x Rapier/Huginn vs 3x kiting ships gang.
Usually the Rapier is the linchpin, if the Rapier can web one of the kiting ships and the kiting ships can't kill the Rapier in time, it's more or less over. Assume the kiting gang can kill the Rapier and get an advantage over the brawling gang, the brawling gang has now the get out of jail for free card using the MMJU. There is no risk at all for the brawling gang anymore.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#469 - 2014-01-08 09:14:43 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Theon Severasse wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
[quote=Gizznitt Malikite]
Instead it creates an increased need for intel gatherers, and that's very much for the better.



There honestly is one area that I can think will directly alter solo travels. When you see this on scan by a gate, and hostiles in local, it becomes very difficult to know whether you can warp to that gate (more often than not, you shouldn't). But these are static, meaning they are easily bypassed. They have a 30 km's radius, can't be within 75km's of a gate or station, nor 40 km's of a POS. This means it will only obfuscate those campers on a catch bubble. Anyone with mild preparation (i.e. having bookmarks in yoru roaming area) can still warp to the area, check out what's up, and fly about.



When I solo I will often pick a point in deep null that I haven't necessarily been to before, it's just somewhere that has quite a bit of activity (players in system, rats killed, whatever). What you are essentially saying is that before roaming somewhere I should scout it well in advance in a nullified T3?

The fact that I am competent at using D-Scan suddenly becomes useless, I may as well not even have the window open for all the good it will do me if these are released.


If you are hunting, it means your prey could potentially setup a trap for you, assuming you rashly warp into an anomaly with one of these on scan. Their price & size is prohibitive enough to prevent endless spamming of these, so it is not likely to be there unless a trap is being laid.

If you are worried about escaping, These things DONT COVER GATES. 75 km's - 40 km's means any body "hidden" by an MSI is at least 30 km's off a gate. Don't warp gate to gate when you see this on scan, and bounce off an unaligned celestial.

I'm saying you need to use your head, and these things won't inhibit you at all!


What about hiding wormhole entrances? What about laying drag bubble traps on soem eclestials exaclty to catch peopel tryign to do what you describe?


The simple option of hiding a wormhole entrance is enough so that this should be blocked until its solved.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#470 - 2014-01-08 09:37:20 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:

Sorry kids, 100% intel days are over. Time to HTFU.


So you'd be fine of course if they nuked local at the same time as putting this mod in then right, I mean you're against 100% intel after all aren't you?

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Tertius Tallang
Ex Inanimento Prodeo
#471 - 2014-01-08 09:41:56 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:

Sorry kids, 100% intel days are over. Time to HTFU.


So you'd be fine of course if they nuked local at the same time as putting this mod in then right, I mean you're against 100% intel after all aren't you?


+1. I mean, if I find myself agreeing with a Grath post, there most be some truth in there.
Tyby
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#472 - 2014-01-08 09:47:13 UTC

the msi thing is basically "the bears wet dreams come true";
bye-bye solo/small roaming gangs running around;

if anything, this structure will encourage even more the "afk cloak camping"; instead of running around 100 jumps and catch nothing, it will be more easy/less time consuming/more rewarding to just get some t3 nullified/probbing alts in a farming constellation and use a covert cyno to jump/kill things Blink

about the mobile mjd unit:
did you finally just managed to get a good bubble on that pesky hac/t3/whaterver sniper gang,? time to ki... oh wait they are now 100 km away from your bubble...
sniping your tackle ...
and this ^^ is just one example;
this thing will make warp distruptor point kind of useless and with that the kitting ships also : you got tackled by a small ship that won't come in your web/scrambler range? don't worry, deploy the mjd thing and jump away...

i should, like allot of other ppl, say that thise structures are more game breaking that beneficial and not nedded;
i wont do that tho, since i know that ccp, will go ahead and deploy them anyway adding the customary "we will keep an aye on it and tune it if we see the need" Cry



oh, and speaking of keeping your eyes on stuff and that, are there any plans to "tweak" the mobile depot so that ppl cant use it to refit stabs in mid fight and run away? or is this "working as intended"?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#473 - 2014-01-08 10:00:39 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:

Sorry kids, 100% intel days are over. Time to HTFU.


So you'd be fine of course if they nuked local at the same time as putting this mod in then right, I mean you're against 100% intel after all aren't you?



That is the problem with the MSI, its being done in separate to a MUCH neede revamp of local. IF this was done with a remake on all intel systems, everythign would be ok.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#474 - 2014-01-08 10:02:23 UTC
Tyby wrote:

the msi thing is basically "the bears wet dreams come true";
bye-bye solo/small roaming gangs running around;

if anything, this structure will encourage even more the "afk cloak camping"; instead of running around 100 jumps and catch nothing, it will be more easy/less time consuming/more rewarding to just get some t3 nullified/probbing alts in a farming constellation and use a covert cyno to jump/kill things Blink

about the mobile mjd unit:
did you finally just managed to get a good bubble on that pesky hac/t3/whaterver sniper gang,? time to ki... oh wait they are now 100 km away from your bubble...
sniping your tackle ...
and this ^^ is just one example;
this thing will make warp distruptor point kind of useless and with that the kitting ships also : you got tackled by a small ship that won't come in your web/scrambler range? don't worry, deploy the mjd thing and jump away...

i should, like allot of other ppl, say that thise structures are more game breaking that beneficial and not nedded;
i wont do that tho, since i know that ccp, will go ahead and deploy them anyway adding the customary "we will keep an aye on it and tune it if we see the need" Cry



oh, and speaking of keeping your eyes on stuff and that, are there any plans to "tweak" the mobile depot so that ppl cant use it to refit stabs in mid fight and run away? or is this "working as intended"?


Simpoly ALL these structures shoudl ahve their deploy time increased severely. For all of the,

If you have prepared your battlefield in anteciptaion and deployed jump things and refit places.. ok.. all the pwoer to you.

But improvisign it at middle of a fight in 20 seconds.. it is NOT ok

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

erg cz
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#475 - 2014-01-08 10:08:14 UTC
We, rampaging solo carebears, welcome those new structures. Exactly the way they are suggested.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#476 - 2014-01-08 10:13:18 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
questions:
can you use those msi things to hide your combat probes from dscan? or at least a part of them? Roll

also: will npcs attack them if placed in a belt/anomally/mission ?
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#477 - 2014-01-08 10:25:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Sura Sadiva
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

The truth is, whenever you see these on scan, that will certainly mean someone is doing something they want to keep clandestine. That screams explore here for content to me, and is exactly why I think they are a good idea.


Let me try with an example.

I spend most of my EVE time (limited to few hours per week due to real life) roaming FW plexes searching for suitable a 1vs1 engagment.
9 out of 10 this resolve in people warping away as I enter the plex, but is fine so, when I find one the fun compensate all.

Now, if I see a MSI on scan is not going to be "wow, exciting, some secret activiting is going on here, let me explore this player created content".
I know what this secret, exciting actrivity is: someone is orbiting a button. So there're only 2 options:

1. he's alone but will not engage anyway (otherwise why to set up a MSI?) and will warp away (cause he see me, his d-scan is not nerfed like mine) helped further more by the added MSI delay.

2. is a blob trap and I'd be stupid engaging.

In repsect of this there's no incentive to find it out, what should I explore?? Is more exciting to keep jumping trough the Amamake-Ossongur gate. I will skip and warp to the next system. So it only translate in more time spent in warp and more room for the plexer to earn their LP undisturbed.

Is not a risk added (anyway I close the evening with some ship loss, is not relevant to me) or new tactic or opportunities, is simply less gameplay, more delays and deadtimes, more boredom.

In null will be similar. There's a belt covered by an MSI? What kind of clandestine activity is goin on? We already know: someone is mining and using the MSI to add a further delay for neutrals. Or is a blob trap.

People is not going to change their security procedures, they will keep docking as a neutral arrive, using bubble to prevent fast warp in belt and so on. MSi only add more margin to this, add more safety discouragging neutrals/hostiles not due to added risk but trough added delay and boredom.

We can say this is good or needed. But please don't insult our intelligence trying to sell us as new gameplay opportunities, it is - sic et simpliciter - a buff to farming and a nerf for players interactions.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#478 - 2014-01-08 10:35:37 UTC
Despite the fact that I don't think this will influence anything, I'm going to offer some constructive feedback.

Quote:
Mobile Micro Jump Unit
Right now we have the base version set to 20s module activation time, 48hr lifetime, 25k ehp (mostly structure), 50m3 volume and a build cost of about 1m isk. Micro Jump spoolup is 12s like an unskilled MJD. Current activation range is 2500m but we're already leaning towards expanding that.

If this is primary intended as a "get-out-of-jail-free" card, then the EHP should be on par with the Mobile Tractor Unit. And I would be inclined to *not* increase the activation range.

Quote:
Mobile Scan Inhibitor
Current stats are 60s activation time, 2h lifetime, 45k ehp (once again mostly structure), 50m3 volume and a build cost of ~5m isk. Like I said above, it has an effective radius of 30km, meaning that even if you're at the edge, someone warping to 0 on it can still catch you fairly easily, especially with inties.

Since these are literally going to be plastered everywhere, I think they should have an abysmal EHP - something like 1k. I also think that attacking these should not generate any suspect or criminal flag, and NPCs should actively engage and destroy these. I also like the suggestion that was made to inhibit D-scans while in one of these.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#479 - 2014-01-08 10:39:40 UTC
erg cz wrote:
We, rampaging solo carebears, welcome those new structures. Exactly the way they are suggested.



yet will continue to die liek sheeps.

The problem liies on peopel with brains enough to sue them well (and that exclude carebears).



The Deplyable jump thing is what will [email protected]##[email protected] the game.

It furthers push the game into blasters range only. I know current generation of devs love blasters. But this is getting ridiculous.

9 km is the new LONG range now, since anything over that and ANY ship can escape. Since no ship can defeat gallente ships at that range..

WELCOME to the most stupidly unbalanced metagame of eve history. Also say goodbye to solo and near solo pvp because short poitns have too short range to get anyone at gates except by sheer luck.

These jump structures are the most overpowered thing ever suggested in this game. They make the remote trough cyno AOE doomsdays look like wellt ought and balanced devices!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Theon Severasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#480 - 2014-01-08 11:11:03 UTC
Priestess Lin's claim of a vocal minority spamming this thread is correct. She is the vocal minority.

You can't take anything that she says seriously, since nothing that she says is grounded in reality. But what else can you expect from someone who posts on a 15 day old alt?