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[Rubicon 1.1] Mobile Micro Jump Unit and Mobile Scan Inhibitor

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Author
Tsobai Hashimoto
Perkone
Caldari State
#301 - 2014-01-07 14:04:05 UTC
Theon Severasse wrote:
Both of these things need to be stopped from being able to anchor in FW plexes, since they will essentially stop a lot of PvP from happening - who is seriously going to enter an FW plex that is scan cloaked unless they are in a blob?

They are also impossible to kill in practical terms by the ships that are able to enter them, since the MJU is about the EHP of a cruiser, whilst the MSI is about the EHP of a battlecruiser.



meh....really? your gonna bring 10 of these along in your hull, and drop one in each plex....costing you 5 mill isk each, to...what...make isk?

the guys that want to hide from pvp in fw will do the same ol stabbed fits....no need to stop you from scaning
WhyTry1
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#302 - 2014-01-07 14:06:32 UTC  |  Edited by: WhyTry1
Powers Sa wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Mobile Scan Inhibitor

This is the structure that caused the biggest buzz from the recent round of Chaos observation, time for some details that I think will significantly change how you all see it.

This structure prevents anything inside its 30km radius from appearing on either DScan or Probe Scans. The Scan Inhibitor structure itself however does show up on both types of scan and is very easy to probe down. So you can prevent people from knowing what is inside it but you can't prevent people from knowing that something is there.

Players inside the radius of the structure will be able to scan as normal, except that they won't get scan results from anything that's right beside them inside the radius.

Another single use structure, no rescooping.
Current stats are 60s activation time, 2h lifetime, 45k ehp (once again mostly structure), 50m3 volume and a build cost of ~5m isk.
Like I said above, it has an effective radius of 30km, meaning that even if you're at the edge, someone warping to 0 on it can still catch you fairly easily, especially with inties.
Can't be deployed within 75km of gates or stations, or within 40km of control towers. Can't be deployed within 40km of another scan inhibitor so you can overlap them but you can never use one to mask the central structure of another.


This is massively broken if the radius is bigger than 15km (30km diameter), and the build cost needs to be that of like a t2 medium bubble or a t1 large bubble.

With a 30km radius you can hide capfleets and super fleets.


But you cant really can you, i dont see the point of this unit. You can scan the unit down and warp to it, and then youll find whats there, so i dont get the point of it. or am i missing something.

The first thing you will do now is scan for these straighaway knowing they could be something there. i dont get it
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#303 - 2014-01-07 14:07:46 UTC

The cost doesn't matter. Corporations and alliances will manage to keep a number of MSI always up in their home and farming systems. is not like each ratter have to place an MSI in each belt; you place an MSI for each belt and ALL your ratters and miners gain safety.

This (added to the other usual safety tools like godlike intel from local, bubbles and so on) will allow to run 24/7 safe areas.


Sid Crash
#304 - 2014-01-07 14:15:46 UTC
This will be just as unbalanced as all the other "wouldn't it be cool if" ideas and it will, just as all the other ideas, create massive problems which you can't control because us players WILL find hilarious ways to break it and mess stuff up.

Seriously Fozzie, don't do this because once you introduce it you can't wish it away any more.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#305 - 2014-01-07 14:18:27 UTC
I'm not sure.

both have good points.

though I'm a bit concerned of the following:

The MJD unit:

not the unit itself, but the ripple efect that it might have.
I'm a bit concerned for Battleships, the new warp mechanics already kicked Battleships in the groin, the MJD was something that could help battles ships out a little, not much but it gave them a small edge, that will be gone. assault Battleships where already a joke since the warp changes, now is the small advantage of the MJD gone.

The Scan disrupter.

I'm quite afraid that it will become a tactical weapon, keeping from engaging eachother than that it will create more encounters.
and it's already quite hard to find a small gang encounters.

In large fleets it might have more potential as a real weapon, instead of scaring anyone from engaging anyone.


Don't know if that is enough to change them, though I think it's good to consider.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#306 - 2014-01-07 14:19:42 UTC
WhyTry1 wrote:
Powers Sa wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Mobile Scan Inhibitor

This is the structure that caused the biggest buzz from the recent round of Chaos observation, time for some details that I think will significantly change how you all see it.

This structure prevents anything inside its 30km radius from appearing on either DScan or Probe Scans. The Scan Inhibitor structure itself however does show up on both types of scan and is very easy to probe down. So you can prevent people from knowing what is inside it but you can't prevent people from knowing that something is there.

Players inside the radius of the structure will be able to scan as normal, except that they won't get scan results from anything that's right beside them inside the radius.

Another single use structure, no rescooping.
Current stats are 60s activation time, 2h lifetime, 45k ehp (once again mostly structure), 50m3 volume and a build cost of ~5m isk.
Like I said above, it has an effective radius of 30km, meaning that even if you're at the edge, someone warping to 0 on it can still catch you fairly easily, especially with inties.
Can't be deployed within 75km of gates or stations, or within 40km of control towers. Can't be deployed within 40km of another scan inhibitor so you can overlap them but you can never use one to mask the central structure of another.


This is massively broken if the radius is bigger than 15km (30km diameter), and the build cost needs to be that of like a t2 medium bubble or a t1 large bubble.

With a 30km radius you can hide capfleets and super fleets.


But you cant really can you, i dont see the point of this unit. You can scan the unit down and warp to it, and then youll find whats there, so i dont get the point of it. or am i missing something.

The first thing you will do now is scan for these straighaway knowing they could be something there. i dont get it


you are missing that there will be 10 or more of these in system. Each one with a drag bubble on it.. and smartbomb battlehips killing all your scouts trying to find the real fleet. At same time the real fleet can eve change locations.

ITs will nto be impossible.. but will be a HELISH pain in the ass and need suicidal people by the dozens.


"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Jureth22
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#307 - 2014-01-07 14:24:01 UTC
lol,i dont even.hey i have an ideea,what about mobile ecm unit.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#308 - 2014-01-07 14:24:37 UTC
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:

meh....really? your gonna bring 10 of these along in your hull, and drop one in each plex....costing you 5 mill isk each, to...what...make isk?

the guys that want to hide from pvp in fw will do the same ol stabbed fits....no need to stop you from scaning


Except that you will not be able to know who is plexing and where. You cannot relay ond-scan to find them: looks empty becuase nobody is there or because there's a MSI thing? you will have always to warp in ALL the plexes in the system to find out.

Already now the system is balanced to advantage plexers: I'm plexing, I see you warping to the gate, I decide: if I want to engage I stay otherwise I warp away. The MSI add a further advantage for the plexer.

Speedkermit Damo
Invicta.
Muffins of Mayhem
#309 - 2014-01-07 14:30:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Speedkermit Damo
Jepp wrote:
Luwc wrote:
Dear CCP,

TL'DR

Please fix your ******* Pos and SOV mechanics instead of putting out this childish and plain ******** bullshit.

and for the mercy of god...
stop adding crap that allows people to permantly run away.
I.e. mobile depots for instant warp core fit and now this ******* anti scan/MJD thing.

Too many cloaks.
Too much bubble immunity.

stop that.


wow, didn't think I'll ever like a post and agree with someone from FA


I also second this. There are already far too many ways to avoid or escape PvP. Even if you do somehow manage to get a lock on a nullified cloaky or Interceptor, chances are that fecking module activation delay will allow the target to escape anyway.

I haven't been playing Eve for very long, not even 18 months but I see the way things are going. null and low-sec gets safer and safer for those who don't want to PvP. These unwanted gimmick modules are another nail in the coffin of solo/small-gang PvP which was already on life support.

Fix nullsec, sov, POS's, lag, tidi, etc. Stop with these gimmicks.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#310 - 2014-01-07 14:40:43 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
I am impressed how people think the AOE cloak is the overpowered one. ITs power is nothing and illusory as long as local exist (because you know the location still).



Not if you're in a wormhole.

Currently, hiding from d-scan requires smarts. You can find places off d-scan to hide assets that can hide non-cloaked ships, and use cloakies with all the disadvantages therin. What you CAN'T do is hide an entire cap escalation fleet, or build up forces without the enemy being able to know composition.

There's nothing stopping a corp putting up ten or twenty with bubbles anchored within them, screwing over anyone hunting for more than long enough to allow disengagement from the sleepers or preparation for PVP. You need a lot of scouts, or you have to be using cloaky/nulli T3s which is just pushing one ship into being the only option for a particular role, something Eve is supposedly against.

It can simultaneously be used to remove even more of the risk from PvE and to add an advantage to an invading fleet, and while that might seem balanced all it's going to do is MAKE BOTH SIDES LESS LIKELY TO FIGHT. This is the exact opposite of what we need.

Okay, in k-space you know there's someone there, you know their NUMBERS, you know exactly where they could be coming from (barring wormhole exits), but in w-space there's a lot less information and a lot more variables, and this will allow non-cloaky ships to come through a wormhole without giving away exact composition, which is just going to mean more people hide behind their POS shields and we get less good fights. No longer does hiding from d-scan require a cloak or clever/lucky placement out of d-scan range. The enemy will know that SOMETHING is coming, but that could be one T1 cruiser from a high or nullsec entrance screwing with the big scary wormholers by anchoring a bubble on the hole, or it could be a fifty-man T3 gang with a bubble already anchored to pull your scout right into the middle of them, and you have physcally no way of knowing any more.
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#311 - 2014-01-07 15:02:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Terranid Meester
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Stupid stuff



They only last for 2 hours you dunderhead. How on earth are you going to fill a system with 100 before their timer expires.
Personally I wish they didn't have timers, which leaves the fact that you can use your own MSI's to hide yourself, they can be blown up and that you will have to warp to wherever the enemy is anyway, so if they are an active d-scanner it won't make much of a difference anyway [unless you have your own msi network in place]

Also if they put down a new one, you might know where they are instantly as a new one appears on scan.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#312 - 2014-01-07 15:22:31 UTC
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
I am impressed how people think the AOE cloak is the overpowered one. ITs power is nothing and illusory as long as local exist (because you know the location still).



Not if you're in a wormhole.

Currently, hiding from d-scan requires smarts. You can find places off d-scan to hide assets that can hide non-cloaked ships, and use cloakies with all the disadvantages therin. What you CAN'T do is hide an entire cap escalation fleet, or build up forces without the enemy being able to know composition.

There's nothing stopping a corp putting up ten or twenty with bubbles anchored within them, screwing over anyone hunting for more than long enough to allow disengagement from the sleepers or preparation for PVP. You need a lot of scouts, or you have to be using cloaky/nulli T3s which is just pushing one ship into being the only option for a particular role, something Eve is supposedly against.

It can simultaneously be used to remove even more of the risk from PvE and to add an advantage to an invading fleet, and while that might seem balanced all it's going to do is MAKE BOTH SIDES LESS LIKELY TO FIGHT. This is the exact opposite of what we need.

Okay, in k-space you know there's someone there, you know their NUMBERS, you know exactly where they could be coming from (barring wormhole exits), but in w-space there's a lot less information and a lot more variables, and this will allow non-cloaky ships to come through a wormhole without giving away exact composition, which is just going to mean more people hide behind their POS shields and we get less good fights. No longer does hiding from d-scan require a cloak or clever/lucky placement out of d-scan range. The enemy will know that SOMETHING is coming, but that could be one T1 cruiser from a high or nullsec entrance screwing with the big scary wormholers by anchoring a bubble on the hole, or it could be a fifty-man T3 gang with a bubble already anchored to pull your scout right into the middle of them, and you have physcally no way of knowing any more.



Yeah Wormhole space is not most of my experience is. But i think the best emergent gameplay that can appear is from wholespace. But needs to be better balanced than current proposal.

This thing should in fact appear in OVERVIEW, not needing a probe to find it. THen I think we might have it balanced.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Grozen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#313 - 2014-01-07 15:26:12 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Add-on: Do you really want to make the extremely expensive to fit Expanded Probe Launcher mandatory for intel gathering? Because that's what I'm getting here: an implication that solo pilots, or small gangs who cannot afford to sacrifice one of their pilots to tow around a scanning ship can... well... get dunked.


yes I agree.

But even with one or more dedicated prober... It's not relevant:

I will fill my ratting system with 100 MSI. You enter and want to find me. You'll have to probe and warp on grid to see. Reaping this 100 times (in the meantime of course I see you and your probes on MY d-scan). How long will be? Let's see 10 seconds to scan + 20 seconds to warp. 30 seonds repeated 100 times.

So will be something:

1. time consuming and boring like hell
2. uneffective
3. Even if you success (after 1-2 hours of pure boredom) in finding somoene will be most likely a trap and you'll run in a blob

Go figure...

People will give up even only to try.




Their build cost is around 5m right.So on market they will sell 6-7m even when prices settle somehow placing 100 of these would mean someone just wasted 600m to cover his trail.Does not seem very cheap tactic to me.

knowledge is power.

Elgin Stone
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#314 - 2014-01-07 15:27:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Elgin Stone
I liked the suggestion from another forum member about the proximity MJU. Maybe a 15km proximity and every ship in it jumps.

wait.....it takes 20sec for you to be able to activate it so time to get away from it (battleships etc maybe not), doesn't have to be activated straight away or even by the person who dropped it (Bit like a "Go ahead, theres the button, push it" sort of thing. or I'm scrammed somebody push my button, or even the MJU is scrammable if you lock and scram before the end of the 12sec activation time).
maybe a 100km jump in a random direction. when deployed theres the 20secs to get away (if you can) or close in to jump with all involved in the jump. you stay locked to targets when you MJD anyway. maybe not deployable in high sec or even low sec.

even a new wormhole anomaly effect, also including battleship MJDs. sort of "these wormholes have a proximity effect of ??km on all Jump Drives"

Doubt I'll use any of these deployables, but a proximity jump would be a great effect to watch on someone's Twitch stream or youtube.



(sorry if someone else has already thought of this, I couldn't be bothered to read all the replies)
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#315 - 2014-01-07 15:28:36 UTC
Deleted a double post at the poster's request.

And no, I don't think the forum will have a readily available "delete post" button both for reasons of not enabling trolling, and since there needs to be some serious coding to make it happen (the delete button we use as mods is already sort of funky).

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.

Theon Severasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#316 - 2014-01-07 15:28:41 UTC
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:
Theon Severasse wrote:
Both of these things need to be stopped from being able to anchor in FW plexes, since they will essentially stop a lot of PvP from happening - who is seriously going to enter an FW plex that is scan cloaked unless they are in a blob?

They are also impossible to kill in practical terms by the ships that are able to enter them, since the MJU is about the EHP of a cruiser, whilst the MSI is about the EHP of a battlecruiser.



meh....really? your gonna bring 10 of these along in your hull, and drop one in each plex....costing you 5 mill isk each, to...what...make isk?

the guys that want to hide from pvp in fw will do the same ol stabbed fits....no need to stop you from scaning


No, you anchor them in the plex that you and your fleet are sitting in. Anyone who Dscans that plex would have to assume that everyone in local is in that plex, and would have to bring a fleet capable of countering that.

Regardless of whether there is actually just one person in it sitting in a merlin, or twenty all sitting in daredevils.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#317 - 2014-01-07 15:31:12 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
I am impressed how people think the AOE cloak is the overpowered one. ITs power is nothing and illusory as long as local exist (because you know the location still).



Not if you're in a wormhole.

Currently, hiding from d-scan requires smarts. You can find places off d-scan to hide assets that can hide non-cloaked ships, and use cloakies with all the disadvantages therin. What you CAN'T do is hide an entire cap escalation fleet, or build up forces without the enemy being able to know composition.

There's nothing stopping a corp putting up ten or twenty with bubbles anchored within them, screwing over anyone hunting for more than long enough to allow disengagement from the sleepers or preparation for PVP. You need a lot of scouts, or you have to be using cloaky/nulli T3s which is just pushing one ship into being the only option for a particular role, something Eve is supposedly against.

It can simultaneously be used to remove even more of the risk from PvE and to add an advantage to an invading fleet, and while that might seem balanced all it's going to do is MAKE BOTH SIDES LESS LIKELY TO FIGHT. This is the exact opposite of what we need.

Okay, in k-space you know there's someone there, you know their NUMBERS, you know exactly where they could be coming from (barring wormhole exits), but in w-space there's a lot less information and a lot more variables, and this will allow non-cloaky ships to come through a wormhole without giving away exact composition, which is just going to mean more people hide behind their POS shields and we get less good fights. No longer does hiding from d-scan require a cloak or clever/lucky placement out of d-scan range. The enemy will know that SOMETHING is coming, but that could be one T1 cruiser from a high or nullsec entrance screwing with the big scary wormholers by anchoring a bubble on the hole, or it could be a fifty-man T3 gang with a bubble already anchored to pull your scout right into the middle of them, and you have physcally no way of knowing any more.



Yeah Wormhole space is not most of my experience is. But i think the best emergent gameplay that can appear is from wholespace. But needs to be better balanced than current proposal.

This thing should in fact appear in OVERVIEW, not needing a probe to find it. THen I think we might have it balanced.


being able to warp to it would definitely help, since then it's a risk using it at all, you use it to temporarily hide a fleet actively forming up instead of to hide ongoing activities.

This would require further balancing for FW (Or not allowing it to work in deadspace) as then you either have the exact same problem you have now (it's physically impossible to see what's inside without being in a known position), or you have an exploitable way of warping right into a plex.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#318 - 2014-01-07 15:39:12 UTC
I would be curious to read some CSM members' takes on these new mechanisms.
I would think that some of them would have VERY strong opinions about them.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#319 - 2014-01-07 15:46:07 UTC
Grozen wrote:

Their build cost is around 5m right.So on market they will sell 6-7m even when prices settle somehow placing 100 of these would mean someone just wasted 600m to cover his trail.Does not seem very cheap tactic to me.


Doesn't matter. 100, 50, 10... one is enough: you deploy only one in the system (or there's some already deployed) and then anyone entering the system (if hasn't combat probes) will have to warp to any belts, anomaly, celestial, to find out.

Is an huge nerf to engament opportunities.

Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#320 - 2014-01-07 15:48:03 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

This thing should in fact appear in OVERVIEW, not needing a probe to find it. THen I think we might have it balanced.


Now this is a good idea. Warpable beacon in overwiew and not usable inside plexes.

Still I think MSI is bad, but at least in this way their damage to the gameplay could be limited.