Test Server Feedback

As you may have noticed, I have been afk for the last week or so.
I am back at work now and will try to address the concerns that have been expressed while I was away.

As Soundwave and Affinity have explained for me in my absence, the cutoff date for changes that make it into the Crucible expansion has already passed (and had already passed when I went away).

As it turned out, I only had time to do one extra pass on the changes after they hit SISI. These changes (to the changes) were based on your feedback from this thread. There were many other suggestions here that I would love to do, but didn't have enough time to do them properly for this release. In the future, I will make sure that I have more time to make changes based on your feedback. The feedback that you was posted after the cutoff is far from worthless. I've read every single post and written down notes for future reference.

What we have now is a start. After Crucible come out, I will definitely be doing further balancing.
Here are some of the things relating to hybrid ships that we will be looking further into in the coming weeks/months:

* Further tweaking of individual ships.
* Tech II ammo needs a better look at, especially Null-Scorch-Barrage.
* Active tanking vs passive tanking. And by extension, armor tanking vs shield tanking.
* Small and Medium Webifier drones.
* Give tech I hybrid ammo variations for each range, like projectile ammo. Maybe the same for lasers.
* Something to help blaster ships get into range. There are several good suggestions on how to do this; Webifier range bonus, MWD speed bonus, change the armor rig penalty, increase base speed or even a new type of module. We might do some of them, all of them or something completely different.

p.s. I have also updated the OP with the final list of changes.

Well, I hope CCP is not going to limit scorch range. Scorch is the Amarr version of stasis webifier. Once it's gone or dramatically reduced. You'll quickly find that Amarr ships are not even on the same level as Gallente ships + Hybrid turrets and even less so compared to Minmatar or Caldari.

Although, if they did do this. Then you would only assume barrage and Tracking enhancers range would be reduced too. With tracking computers or tracking enhancers being the only counter to any reduction in scorch range.

I can only see a more homogeneous landscape to come out of this. Something a part of the community says it does not want, but instead of increasing blaster range. CCP may just start reducing auto-cannon and laser range.

Like I said. This will only show how SH!T Amarr ships and turrets truly are. Again! Kinda like how most believed blaster were good, but that was because of one module (stasis webifier).

I know for a fact most solo pilots do not find Amarr ships to be good solo. If they're not good in that niche and not in fleets. What use are they? Mining Abaddon, with guardians repping incoming rat damage?

Good to see a dev reply :3 Here's some more redundant observations:

Good to see a dev reply :3 Here's some more redundant observations:

I was just running through some T3 cruiser fitting options today. I was mostly interested in Legions but decided to compare my Legion fits with similar Loki and Proteus fits as well.

To give you an idea how screwed up hybrids still are (especially mediums), and how messed up Gallente ships are in general, check this out:

Legion with Heavy Pulses, 2x sinks, 2x tracking enhancers, and Scorch loaded: 432 DPS to 44km optimal.

Proteus with Neutrons, 2 MFS, 2 TE, and Null: 420 dps to 7.3+18.5km

Target: typical vagabond MWDing at a 45 degree angle from the shooter.

DPS output at 30km:
- Legion: 430 dps
- Proteus: ~110 dps

DPS at 20km:
- Legion: 430 dps
- Proteus: ~260 dps

DPS at 10km:
- Legion: 420 dps
- Proteus: 415 dps

From 0-8km, the Proteus out DPSes the Legion... by a hair... due to tracking issues with the pulses. At every other range the Legion is vastly superior. Oh, yeah, the Legion is also faster by 200m/s, has more EHP, and isn't restricted to armor tanking.

Now, granted, this is comparing a 6 gun Legion setup to a 5 gun Proteus, but even a 5 gun Legion puts out 360 dps-- it will still out-dps a Proteus anywhere beyond ~10km. And dropping that 6th gun for another low and installing a nano then makes the Legion 400m/s faster than the Proteus and just as agile.

A 2/2 gyro/TE Loki with Barrage also out-DPSes a Proteus outside 18km, doing double the dps of the Proteus at 30km. The Proteus' dps advantage over a Loki at close range (under 10km)? A mere ~90 dps. At the edge of point range, the Loki does 100% more damage than a Proteus, while at face**** range, a Proteus does ~20-25% more damage than the Loki. The Loki also gets ~60% more tank, is equal in agility to the Proteus, and goes 550m/s faster.

Why would anyone ever fly a blaster medium blaster ship? Every other weapon system and race gets better ships (faster, tankier, more agile, or all 3), better damage output in 90% of situations, and can actually apply damage from outside of scram range. Literally the only time Gallente ships outshine the others is when fighting at scram range, and they're at the same time the hardest ships to get into range with in the first place (being slower and sometimes even less agile than others) and least capable of staying there for long (because their tanks inferior or useless-- either you fit a shield tank that has no capacity, or you fit an armor tank that renders your ship completely useless by turning it into a brick).

For what its worth, I think this is the most important thing to remember about the whole "how does i maek blaster ship blast?" problem: there's no point in ~*simply*~ working out "a way for blaster ships to get into range." The biggest problem with blasters at the moment is that they require you to fight in scram range. This is a problem in and of itself, not just a problem of being able to close with the target or not. Currently there's no way to get around the fact that a ship that is required to fight in blaster range is forced to absolutely commit itself to fights in a way that no other ship is-- going into scram range is very often a one-way ticket. If your target is bait fit, or has friends waiting, or is fitting a cyno, or anything at all goes wrong and you're scrammed and webbed, you're not getting out. By comparison, Amarr, Minmatar, and Caldari ships can all kite and do decent, if not full damage from the edge of point range, allowing them a degree of safety that blaster ships will never enjoy under current mechanics.

If you want blasters to be a viable weapons system you must either increase their falloff range by buffing the hell out of Null, or you need to find a unique bonus for blaster ships that makes flying into scram/web range non-suicidal.

A Null buff would be by far the simplest solution to implement. I think the best way of implementing the latter idea would be to give Gallente ships a bonus to afterburners that renders them able to hit MWD speeds using afterburners instead, effectively making them into scram (but not web) immune versions of their current selves.

Good luck to your team, I really look forward to the day when more than 10% of blaster boats represent a viable option for PvP. Currently we've pretty much got the Serpentis ships and the Talos.

e: I'd also add that I don't think the way to *fix* the problem is by nerfing Barrage or Scorch-- Barrage / autocannons are pretty much perfect as-is (either you can go well into tackle range and do full damage, or you can kite and do 40-60% of full damage) and pulses aren't bad either (you get wicked range but chew through cap like a fat kid fresh out of thin-camp and have the worst tracking of the 3 closerange guns). Pulses and autos function well in PvP already-- leave them be and fix the problem child instead.

Greetings

Please post your feedback about hybrid turret balancing in this thread.

Thanks.
Your Tallest.

update (23/11/11): Final list of hybrid changes for the Crucible expansion.

Hybrid Turrets

* XL Turrets: -5 CPU
* L Turrets: -3 CPU
* M Turrets: -2 CPU
* S Turrets: -1 CPU
** Exception: 75mm Railguns (they already have very low CPU requirements.)

* All hybrid turrets: -12% Powergrid usage. Rounded to nearest whole number.
** Exceptions: Light Electron Blasters, Light Ion Blasters, 125mm Railguns, 75mm Railguns (they already have very low Powergrid requirements.)

* All hybrid turrets: -30% capacitor use

* All hybrid turrets: 5 second reload time

* All blaster turrets: +20% to Tracking speed
** Exception: XL turrets (they already have good tracking when compared to other XL turrets)
* All blaster turrets: + 5% to Damage modifier
** Exception: XL turrets (they already have good tracking when compared to other XL turrets)

* All railgun turrets: +10% to Damage modifier
** Exception: XL turrets (they already have good damage when compared to other XL turrets)
* All railgun turrets: +5% to Tracking speed
** Exception: XL turrets (they already have good damage when compared to other XL turrets)

Ships

* Max Velocity +10 on the following ships:
** Arazu, Astarte, Brutix, Catalyst, Deimos, Dominix, Dominix Navy Issue, Enyo, Eos, Falcon, Guardian-Vexor, Helios, Incursus, Ishtar, Lachesis, Maulus, Megathron, Megathron Federate Issue, Megathron Navy Issue, Thorax, Tristan, Utu, Vexor, Vexor Navy Issue, Vigilant

* Max Velocity +5 on the following ships:
** Cormorant, Federation Navy Comet, Hyperion, Kronos, Sin, Vindicator

* Inertia Modifier -5% on the following ships:
** Adrestia, Arazu, Ares, Astarte, Atron, Brutix, Catalyst, Celestis, Cormorant, Daredevil, Deimos, Dominix, Dominix Navy Issue, Eagle, Enyo, Eos, Eris, Exequror Navy Issue, Falcon, Federation Navy Comet, Ferox, Guardian-Vexor, Harpy, Helios, Hyperion, Incursus, Ishkur, Ishtar, Kronos, Lachesis, Maulus, Megathron, Megathron Federate Issue, Megathron Navy Issue, Merlin, Moa, Phobos, Raptor, Rokh, Sin, Taranis, Thorax, Tristan, Utu, Vexor, Vexor Navy Issue, Vigilant, Vindicator, Vulture

Ammo

* All hybrid ammo: 50% smaller volume (and hybrid turret capacity reduced to keep same number of charges)
* Javelin (all sizes): Removed cap penalty
* Javelin, Gleam and Quake (all sizes): Removed tracking speed penalty, added 25% tracking speed bonus
* Hail (all sizes): Reduced falloff penalty from 50% to 25%

Tallest, may I make another suggestion: Please consider that the Gallente also have the drone platforms, all of which have been very competitive until now.

A small comparison:

- Frigates: All Gallente frigates have drones. Even the Helios, of all things, has a drone.
Gallente will now have two excellent PVP frigates. Amarr, Minnies and Caldari have one

- AFs: Gallente now have two excellent PVP frigates where before the Enyo was difficult to fit. Amarr only has one

- Faction frigates: Empire factions have parity except the Minnies where the Firetail is subpar. The Daredevil is now even more vastly OP than it was. Meanwhile, the Dram is getting nerfed, the Worm is worthless compared to the T2 Ishkur, and the Cruor and Succubus are niche platforms.

- Destroyers: The Gallente now have a destroyer that out damages almost all t1 cruisers with the Catalyst capable of doing over 500dps. The Coercer is still stuck with one mid slot.

- Cruisers: Gallente now have two very competitive cruisers with the Thorax and Vexor. Minnies and Amarr only have one (Omen is extremely gimped, Stabber and Caracal are only good as anti-frigate platforms)

- HACs: Gallente now have two very competive HACS in the Deimos with the speed/agilty/fitting improvements and the Ishtar, which can chase off the Vagabond with ease. Caldari only have one (Eagle's role has been usurped by Naga)

- Faction Cruisers: Empire factions have platform parity, but here the Angels are still very OP with the Cynabal, which would be worse were there not only a drone platform (Gila), but also an extremely potent hybrid platform (Vigilant) which is now even more vastly OP in close combat. The Phantasm is lacking as a PVP platform.

- Recons: parity with other races, although ECM is still far too OP.

- T3 cruisers: The Proteus is very good in its roles, but the Legion is only really useful for gang boosting and the Tengu outclasses all the rest in use. Loki is balanced.

- Battlecruisers: Gallente now have two competitive platforms in the improved Brutix and Myrmidon, although the Myrmidon badly needs 100mb drone bandwidth. The Amarr are still stuck with the awful Prophecy. Ironically, the Ferox is now useful as a blaster platform. This is the weapons class, outside of HACs which are used as strawmen arguments in calls for nerfs to the Hurricane and Drake......

- Command Ships: The Astarte is now extremely competive, although the Eos is still supbar with its low drone bandwidth. Caldari still cannot fit HAMs without gimping their fits.

- Tier 3 BCs: The Talos is lacking compared to the other three, but is competitive in the niche close in dual web fits, although the Tornado is arguably better.

- Battleships: All three Gallente BS are now extremely good and can even go up against the Amarr under certain circumstances now. The Hyperion in a shield fit is now faster, has more ehp and vastly more dps than the Tempest in a shield fit and has closed the range gap considerably. Caldari BS have one niche PvP platform, Scorpion, the Raven suffers from poor dps from cruise missiles and fitting difficulties with Torpedos, although the Rokh might now shine as a blaster ship. Minnie BS are now subpar apart from the Maelstrom, which has a niche use in PvP (alpha to break logistics)

- Faction BS: In Empire factions, the Gallente are even more competitive now and there is general platform parity although the CNR is a PvE only platform. In pirate factions, the Machariel is still vastly OP, although the others (Vindicator, Bhalghorn, Nightmare, rattlesnake) totally outperform anything in their class in PVP and PVE

- Marauders: Here the Kronos is still subpar, although it has improved. As a class, Marauders desperately need new roles as they are wasted in PvE,where they are outclassed by pirate faction BS.

- Blackops: Very limited niche for very expensive and somewhat flimsy ships. Also need revision badly.

Tallest: Viewed across the whole gammut, the Gallente are now extremely competive and completely dominate some classes in viable choices available. I urge you to consider this when considering rebalances.

- HACs: Gallente now have two very competive HACS in the Deimos with the speed/agilty/fitting improvements and the Ishtar, which can chase off the Vagabond with ease. Caldari only have one (Eagle's role has been usurped by Naga)