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High Sec Income vs Null Sec Income - the reality

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#941 - 2013-12-19 18:58:10 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:


But this is true for highsec as well. If you are optimizing ANY isk-making activity, it's going to require multiple characters.

Anything you do with one character, you could be doing better and faster with multiple.

This SHOULD be common sense....



Yet you are comparing infinities income in that one screenshot vs a solo lvl 4 runner.

Pinky Hops wrote:


This is whining about a situation that you voluntarily put yourself in.



No its pointing out a very big problem with risk vs reward after years of nerfing null and buffing high.
Pinky Hops wrote:

Again, all your "theory" is pointless when most of null is simply empty. You do not have to pay isk to farm only a singular system, or any system.

Instead you can just NOT pay isk and farm ALL the systems. There are sites everywhere. I have seen 10/10 DED sites go untouched for days.


We do pay isk. The systems cost a lot of isk to upgrade and maintain.
Pinky Hops wrote:

The concept that you "run out" of sites in null is just so 100% wrong I don't even know how people got this into their heads.

The only way you are going to "run out" is if you put arbitrary and limited restrictions on your farming zone, eg by agreeing to arbitrary and crippling rental agreements.


We can fit 10 people into a fully upgraded good truesec system before we get overcrowding issues. The vast bulk of null sec simply is not worth upgrading due to the poor levels of income they generate. When you are earning less in the great systems of null sec than in high sec why do you think we would bother wasting trillions upgrading the bad space we have?
Jered Hakaaros
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#942 - 2013-12-19 19:03:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jered Hakaaros
Aaron wrote:
Ok,

Any nullsec system will always have a higher income than highsec.

If you can get a good team together and go through the belts quickly then you will get officer spawns, faction spawns and hauler spawns.

Officer spawn loot drops can earn you anything from 1 million to 6 billion isk. yes you read that correctly 6 billion isk. faction spawns could be worth up to 1 billion and hauler spawns can drop anything up to about 1.5 billion in minerals.

Lets say a team of 4 guys in battleships went through the belts, the earnings could be anything upto 10 billion a day. This really isn't an exaggeration and there is more than enough money to pay for sov, system upgrades, etc. in NPC null you dont pay anything for sov so all the money is yours.

Have a look at my "Invitation to 0.0" thread on general discussions. There are too many hi-sec dwellers who think they know it all. The truth is you don't know anything about 0.0 unless you have experienced it.

This has been my experience for the last 10 years of playing Eve.



Now that claim comes right from fantasy land, just like the claim that you always find billions worth of loot or BPCs in DED sites that was made earlier.

Ive done belt ratting long enough, so let me give some realistical figures:

For a faction cruiser spawn you can expect something along the lines of 25-60M drop.
A BS faction spawn will mostly net you something along 100-300M.
Hauler spawns typically goes anywhere between 80 and 300M, and you gotta have a hauler nearby to actually get the stuff into station.
An Officer spawn is indeed very variable, from absolutely nothing to a few billions. Well, maybe if you do belt ratting for 10 years straight, you will have found one single officer worth 6B. Possible, yes. Likely? hell, no.

FInding only one of those (not each, just one) per session is lucky, and the only way to increase that chance is to have multiple good truesec-systems along each other, with many belts, many people in it but very few doing actual belt ratting, and having as little competition as possible.

That, and you may come into conflict with belt chainers, who are only after maximizing battleship spawns to get a regular income and represent the flipside to treasure hunters.

Edit: Not to say that belt ratting is not profitable. It is still way more profitable than any comparable activity in Highsec, even without ever finding a special spawn.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#943 - 2013-12-19 19:34:47 UTC
Aaron wrote:
If you can get a good team together and go through the belts quickly then you will get officer spawns, faction spawns and hauler spawns


Hauler spawns are something like a 0.001% chance, only dropping something part of the time, and officers might spawn 2 or 3 times a day across the whole of EvE's 5000 systems.

You do realise that the reason that module is worth 6 billion ISK is because at any one time, there might be fewer than a couple of dozen in existence, right? You realise CCP don't set the price of modules? You realise it works on supply and demand, yeah? That it's better than the alternatives, everyone wants to use it, but there's never more than maybe 1 on the market, or perhaps none?

Do any of you people here have any idea, any slight concept, of why the "fat lootz" that can drop in 0.0 are expencive? Because it is RARE. It DOESN'T HAPPEN A LOT AT ALL.

This isn't ****** MMORPG #54 where the loot has a sale value for sale with an NPC merchant, set by the game maker - every value of every object is set by supply and demand.

If nullsec was raining blue and purple drops like the clowns in this thread believe, they would trade for little more than a T2 module. Proof of this is found in all the faction/deadspace loot that is worth nearly nothing at all, because it is a fairly common drop.

This is hilariously basic stuff, people. Try to keep up.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#944 - 2013-12-19 19:37:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Jered Hakaaros wrote:
That, and you may come into conflict with belt chainers, who are only after maximizing battleship spawns to get a regular income and represent the flipside to treasure hunters.

Edit: Not to say that belt ratting is not profitable. It is still way more profitable than any comparable activity in Highsec, even without ever finding a special spawn.

Hey guy posting from a 2008 time bubble.

Belt ratting is done by people returning to the game remembering it was a thing. Any other activity in 0.0 will earn you more, and even L4 missions beat it on income. So no one does this. You can't even 'chain' in the same way any more.

e: people who didn't get the memo about the sec tick changes still do it as well.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#945 - 2013-12-19 19:38:06 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Aaron wrote:
If you can get a good team together and go through the belts quickly then you will get officer spawns, faction spawns and hauler spawns


Hauler spawns are something like a 0.001% chance, only dropping something part of the time, and officers might spawn 2 or 3 times a day across the whole of EvE's 5000 systems.

You do realise that the reason that module is worth 6 billion ISK is because at any one time, there might be fewer than a couple of dozen in existence, right? You realise CCP don't set the price of modules? You realise it works on supply and demand, yeah? That it's better than the alternatives, everyone wants to use it, but there's never more than maybe 1 on the market, or perhaps none?

Do any of you people here have any idea, any slight concept, of why the "fat lootz" that can drop in 0.0 are expencive? Because it is RARE. It DOESN'T HAPPEN A LOT AT ALL.

This isn't ****** MMORPG #54 where the loot has a sale value for sale with an NPC merchant, set by the game maker - every value of every object is set by supply and demand.

If nullsec was raining blue and purple drops like the clowns in this thread believe, they would trade for little more than a T2 module. Proof of this is found in all the faction/deadspace loot that is worth nearly nothing at all, because it is a fairly common drop.

This is hilariously basic stuff, people. Try to keep up.

Don't bother, they don't want to keep up.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#946 - 2013-12-19 19:39:33 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Don't bother, they don't want to keep up.

Look I'm going to try to teach basic logic before I give up and just make raspberry noises ok.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
#947 - 2013-12-19 19:43:41 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Confirming null is way easier to make spaec moneys in. Way easier.

Look i'm a grownup with things to do and can't dedicate 4-6 hr chunks of a day to eve. Would love to, but no. I buy a plex or two and sell it on the market if i need isk and so my focus is on what i'm doing and who with.
So much concern with isk/hr comes from oddball loners who know everything and aren't willing to take their place in a group they can't dominate. 20m ticks? I'm pleased for you son but that's approaching 4$ per hour. You'd be better off stuffing envelopes and buying plex on the market from some rmt bot.

Spaec adventure gaem, chaps, not spaec job.




WHAT? This came too late for me.

On a side note: And I thought WHs were the place to be, but noooo! Alright next step riskless nullsec with tons of ISKs.

Odyssey: Repacking in POS hangars for modules +1,  but please for other stuff too, especially containers. Make containers openable in POS hangars.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#948 - 2013-12-19 19:52:26 UTC
Seleia O'Sinnor wrote:
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Confirming null is way easier to make spaec moneys in. Way easier.

Look i'm a grownup with things to do and can't dedicate 4-6 hr chunks of a day to eve. Would love to, but no. I buy a plex or two and sell it on the market if i need isk and so my focus is on what i'm doing and who with.
So much concern with isk/hr comes from oddball loners who know everything and aren't willing to take their place in a group they can't dominate. 20m ticks? I'm pleased for you son but that's approaching 4$ per hour. You'd be better off stuffing envelopes and buying plex on the market from some rmt bot.

Spaec adventure gaem, chaps, not spaec job.




WHAT? This came too late for me.

On a side note: And I thought WHs were the place to be, but noooo! Alright next step riskless nullsec with tons of ISKs.

How does 60 mil equate to $4 ? Isn't a plex (sell for 600mil) going for $15 from CCP? Less with sales I suppose ...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#949 - 2013-12-19 19:53:19 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Don't bother, they don't want to keep up.

Look I'm going to try to teach basic logic before I give up and just make raspberry noises ok.

You're gonna end up a deadtear or something if you try too hard

Look, just teach newbees about eve ok

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#950 - 2013-12-19 19:54:20 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Don't bother, they don't want to keep up.

Look I'm going to try to teach basic logic before I give up and just make raspberry noises ok.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but they have their preconceived notions of how "NULL works" and all the logic and evidence won't shake them of that.

So with that said, I say, "PFTHTHTHTHTHTHT!"

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#951 - 2013-12-19 20:11:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
And this is why CFC lacks a Titan/Super fleet.

They control more sov than anybody, and what do they do with it? They go back to highsec to run missions because it's "more profitable."

"logic" indeed.

Keep crying about your lack of supers while you talk about the massive profits from highsec. This is delicious.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#952 - 2013-12-19 20:14:12 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Pinky Hops wrote:
And this is why CFC lacks a Titan/Super fleet.

They control more sov than anybody, and what do they do with it? They go back to highsec to run missions because it's "more profitable."

"logic" indeed.


This is what happens when null sov offers nothing over high sec..

Incidentally, we are literally using suicide dreads.
Notorious Fellon
#953 - 2013-12-19 20:16:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
And this is why CFC lacks a Titan/Super fleet.

They control more sov than anybody, and what do they do with it? They go back to highsec to run missions because it's "more profitable."

"logic" indeed.


This is what happens when null sov offers nothing over high sec..

Incidentally, we are literally using suicide dreads.



So kind of you to hold all that space even though it offers less than hisec. I assume you have stopped sucking all the goo out of moons now?

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#954 - 2013-12-19 20:18:51 UTC
Notorious Fellon wrote:



So kind of you to hold all that space even though it offers less than hisec. I assume you have stopped sucking all the goo out of moons now?


Goo is still worth it just not at crazy levels.

We hold as much space as we do for more or less just one reason. To stop other people from holding it and getting a bridgehead they can use to attack our heartlands.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#955 - 2013-12-19 20:19:55 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:


This is whining about a situation that you voluntarily put yourself in.

Again, all your "theory" is pointless when most of null is simply empty. You do not have to pay isk to farm only a singular system, or any system.

Instead you can just NOT pay isk and farm ALL the systems. There are sites everywhere. I have seen 10/10 DED sites go untouched for days.

The concept that you "run out" of sites in null is just so 100% wrong I don't even know how people got this into their heads.

The only way you are going to "run out" is if you put arbitrary and limited restrictions on your farming zone, eg by agreeing to arbitrary and crippling rental agreements.


We know how many _actual_ signatures there are on the cluster. You do a signature, it respawns elsewhere. The only thing that puts -more- signatures on the cluster so that more characters can do signatures is people doing anomolies and holding high military level on their system so that entrapment arrays are functioning (and even that is not clear that it actually creates extra sigs and doesn't just bias the rolls).

ie 1000 people cannot do gurista reinvigoration at once because it appears that on average there are 2 ded 6 signatures live in PBLRD space in vale, and ~4 total live in the entirety of Vale including all of gents space, and you can extrapolate that to determine what the actual number of signatures is. ie at any one time, about 150 characters can be physically inside a non contested gurista ded signature at a time in the whole of null, because thats all the signatures that actually exist simultaneously.

Whether you want to acknowledge that or not, every level 4 mission runner understands exactly what that means.

and stop blinding yourself with the rental agreement, as is plainly clear, it allows me to arbitrarily create the condition which is profitable in null, the 1 character per system condition by excluding 30% of the characters and 95% of the people jumping into my system from the things in my system.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#956 - 2013-12-19 20:21:57 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Don't bother, they don't want to keep up.

Look I'm going to try to teach basic logic before I give up and just make raspberry noises ok.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but they have their preconceived notions of how "NULL works" and all the logic and evidence won't shake them of that.

So with that said, I say, "PFTHTHTHTHTHTHT!"

Go shoot some structures, it will at least accomplish something.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#957 - 2013-12-19 20:25:01 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:


This is whining about a situation that you voluntarily put yourself in.

Again, all your "theory" is pointless when most of null is simply empty. You do not have to pay isk to farm only a singular system, or any system.

Instead you can just NOT pay isk and farm ALL the systems. There are sites everywhere. I have seen 10/10 DED sites go untouched for days.

The concept that you "run out" of sites in null is just so 100% wrong I don't even know how people got this into their heads.

The only way you are going to "run out" is if you put arbitrary and limited restrictions on your farming zone, eg by agreeing to arbitrary and crippling rental agreements.


We know how many _actual_ signatures there are on the cluster. You do a signature, it respawns elsewhere. The only thing that puts -more- signatures on the cluster so that more characters can do signatures is people doing anomolies and holding high military level on their system so that entrapment arrays are functioning (and even that is not clear that it actually creates extra sigs and doesn't just bias the rolls).

ie 1000 people cannot do gurista reinvigoration at once because it appears that on average there are 2 ded 6 signatures live in PBLRD space in vale, and ~4 total live in the entirety of Vale including all of gents space, and you can extrapolate that to determine what the actual number of signatures is. ie at any one time, about 150 characters can be physically inside a non contested gurista ded signature at a time in the whole of null, because thats all the signatures that actually exist simultaneously.

Whether you want to acknowledge that or not, every level 4 mission runner understands exactly what that means.

and stop blinding yourself with the rental agreement, as is plainly clear, it allows me to arbitrarily create the condition which is profitable in null, the 1 character per system condition by excluding 30% of the characters and 95% of the people jumping into my system from the things in my system.

Well usually you have groups which make the most of the belts/anomalies in the system by fully utilizing them. Teamwork helps somewhat.

Of course a loner might be better off with L4s in their own little tax dodge corp in highsec....

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Notorious Fellon
#958 - 2013-12-19 20:25:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Notorious Fellon wrote:



So kind of you to hold all that space even though it offers less than hisec. I assume you have stopped sucking all the goo out of moons now?


Goo is still worth it just not at crazy levels.

We hold as much space as we do for more or less just one reason. To stop other people from holding it and getting a bridgehead they can use to attack our heartlands.



So nullsec PI isn't worth it anymore either? Did I miss a patch that nerfed nullsec PI?

Stop. Many of us know better than to believe any of that crap you are spewing.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#959 - 2013-12-19 20:27:05 UTC
I think all this has prooven is that high sp players with lots of isk and accounts can make lots of money in hisec and nullsec both. Which seems fine to me, really.

Risk vs Reward is a paradox. There are high rewards for low risk activities. In hisec, the risk is low, and specialization and optimization allow for high rewards. In nullsec, the reward you receive depends not on the risk, but rather how effectively you can mitigate risk. In those activities and locations where risk can be mitigated, the reward is also great. In faction warfare zones, the risk is small because plexing ships is very little risk and very little isk invested. If you're an anomaly runner, you mitigate risk through scouts and intel channels. If you plex, or even ninja plex, you mitigate risk through dscan, multiple accounts, and cloaks. In highsec, risk is mitigated by being in hisec.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#960 - 2013-12-19 20:28:54 UTC
Notorious Fellon wrote:



So nullsec PI isn't worth it anymore either? Did I miss a patch that nerfed nullsec PI?

Stop. Many of us know better than to believe any of that crap you are spewing.


We arnt talking about PI. PI is one of the very few things that are working right along with exploration and ice mining oddly enough.