These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

High Sec Income vs Null Sec Income - the reality

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#921 - 2013-12-19 05:41:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Knights Armament
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
What I have learned from this thread: That the Ishtar is obviously so insanely overpowered that it is not even amusing. A frigate that can solo it's way through the toughest missions in the game, shredding through hordes battleships like so much tissue paper? And apparently it is no less of an instant "I Win" button in the PvP realm, either.

I have no qualms with the idea of the mechanics of Incursion fleets. Vast investment of time, training and capital. Large, organized group of players taking well-coordinated actions against difficult foes for equally great rewards. Yet when I read stories of a frigate pilot, acting on their own, can gain even greater wealth and with even less risk? I do not care if it is made from 100% pure Jovian technology - this is simply wrong.

Naturally all of the Ishtar pilots will disagree with me, because their easy-mode lifestyle is so dependent on CCP never, ever touching their precious death-gnat. I for one, however, find the situation created by this ship's existence to be simply appalling.


If you're going to ***** about a ship at least get the name of the ship correct, the ishtar is a heavy assault cruiser, not a frigate, the ishkur is a frigate, and I don't think it can solo level 4s or sleepers like you're claiming.

Click here to get something special for new players, an EvE Trial Invitation extremely rare, high quality.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#922 - 2013-12-19 05:47:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Quote:
I can easily make a billion isk per day running between 2 and 5 sites


No, you can't. Before you completely fabricated your OP to conveniently prove a point you keep making but have no evidence for, did you stop to look at the escalation chance for these?

If you rat 24/7 in a blaster ship doing anoms as fast as possible, you might get one a week on average. It's a very small part of your total income, that's barely worth counting.

Anyway not going to read 45 pages of you justifying "stuff I made up" so just gonna go with "stop making it up plz".

Also CCP know real numbers and balance based on it, so exactly who are you trying to convince?

Lol, yes I can.

Combat sites not anoms. Example: Troop reinvigoration. 50 mill OE. Gila BPC. Multi-hundred million isk mod drops. 1.5 billion Invul. 6/10. 20 minutes.

Ghost Sites - Ascdency BPC's. 2 minutes.

A single good dropping site can put you into the billions. An average can get you 400-500 million.

A crappy one will still make you 100 million off bounties, OE's and a crappy module.


[citation needed]

I ask the same question again, what is the value in you touting completely made up figures?

If the valuable modules you claim are dropping like candy actually did so, they wouldn't be worth anything. It's a catch 22. They're massively expensive because the drop rates are so very low. Rattling off a list of rare drops as though it was your average grab-bag is just foolish.
Again, if I apply your utterly absurd logic to highsec, I can claim 500mil an hour LP and billions an hour in drops.

When you average it out over more than a sample of one, you find nullsec exploration nets you something in the region of 80-120mil an hour, and is extremely high effort (scan scan scan scan scan scan scan).

There are three possible reasons you're posting these claims:

1 - You actually believe it is true (terminally poor critical reasoning, mathematics / statistic skills needed)
2 - LOLZ I TROLLZ
3 - You think other posters fit in to category 1, and think you can therefore convince them it's true to try to have a group push towards a nerf. Your reason for this seems to be that you can't post without blubbing and crying grrrGOONs.

To be trying number 3, you need to lack a basic understanding of game design; CCP have a loot table and know how often stuff drops.

Honestly I don't know which one I would wish you to be in.

I don't dislike Goons any more than the rest of the big alliances, or the rest of CFC. Not sure where you get that idea. I dislike the big alliances in general. They're overall risk averse carebear's that seem unable to undock when I come into their systems unless of course they outnumber me 50 to 1.

Having said that there are some people I respect in EVE, people you see camping a gate by themselves or in a small gang in something bigger than a frigate.

That brings me to how I can answer your questions regarding my income - you see I go everywhere. There is no invisible red line I can't cross like a renter, or no safe space / unsafe space I won't go into because its all unsafe space. Everyone tries to kill me so Goonsec, or Russian space, or Curse, or Branch, Period Basis, I have the entire galaxy to run plexes in and that's why I'm not restricted to your little bubbles of safety one or two systems over from nearest hub so you can call for help.

In short I make that much income and get those good drops because I'm not a coward. Hit F10 and have a look at your respective area, set it to NPC's killed, set it to pilots in space, see those big blobs on both those settings, they're you and your alliance hiding in your bubbles eeking out a living on anoms and the rare plex that someone else doesnt' grab.

Now look left, right, up, down, see those unlit areas? That's where your alliance and you don't go, that's where the unrun plexes are. There's tons of them.

You know right after Marauders came out I grabbed one, fit it with 1.5 billion in mods and took it to Pure Blind, found a Maze and promptly got it blown to bits by citadel torpedo's. Not sure wtf happened there but anyway, I decided to go back in my trusty Ishtar 2 days later and saw the bookmark in local to the maze. As I do I clicked on it to make sure it didn't give me a popup before I deleted it and it did... so that Maze was there for 3 days roughly and nobody ran it.

Ponder this : 3 sites for this loot, how much per site did I make on average?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#923 - 2013-12-19 06:01:54 UTC
Jered Hakaaros wrote:
Now, we are all just humans. Humans exaggerate. Fact is: Nullsec income is and should always be a lot higher than high-sec income of a comparable profession.

I did a lot of L4s in the beginning. After joining null, my income rose to new heights. As a belt ratter you were in the lowest class of income, and with 2 good hours ratting a day I could still easily catch my 1 or 1,5B a month, buying the PLEX from the loot sales and keeping everything else for fun.

Exploration and good DED sites double or even triple that income, in half the time playing. A good nullsec explorer who plays casually (1 hour a day average) does make his 3 billion or more a month if he knows what he is doing, so is someone adept at running 7/10 or similar sites. Add additional playtime or alts to that, and that figure rises yet again.

Of course there are only a limited number of sites, but currently most of nullsec is empty enough that anyone can do as much as he wants as long as he wants (or as long as he lives).

Then of course come high-end and highly investement/skill/intuition based professions, mostly involving the use of POSes, as well as null/high traders. However, income here is too variable and dependant solely on the player.


I really like this post. It mirrors experiences similar to my own.

While it is true that the sigs and anoms of null are not "infinite" they are so abundant that they might as well be. There is always more.

Most of null is empty. Nearly every system will have open sigs and anoms of various types, with little activity. They are just there for the taking, for whoever flies in -- and they are a lot more valuable than the comparable spawns in highsec...by design.

The idea that it's horribly awfully risky is just a lie. It isn't. Unless you have some sort of ****** moment and jump or warp straight into a camp, there's not much people can do to hinder your movement.
Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#924 - 2013-12-19 06:04:53 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Quote:
I can easily make a billion isk per day running between 2 and 5 sites


No, you can't. Before you completely fabricated your OP to conveniently prove a point you keep making but have no evidence for, did you stop to look at the escalation chance for these?

If you rat 24/7 in a blaster ship doing anoms as fast as possible, you might get one a week on average. It's a very small part of your total income, that's barely worth counting.

Anyway not going to read 45 pages of you justifying "stuff I made up" so just gonna go with "stop making it up plz".

Also CCP know real numbers and balance based on it, so exactly who are you trying to convince?

Lol, yes I can.

Combat sites not anoms. Example: Troop reinvigoration. 50 mill OE. Gila BPC. Multi-hundred million isk mod drops. 1.5 billion Invul. 6/10. 20 minutes.

Ghost Sites - Ascdency BPC's. 2 minutes.

A single good dropping site can put you into the billions. An average can get you 400-500 million.

A crappy one will still make you 100 million off bounties, OE's and a crappy module.


[citation needed]

I ask the same question again, what is the value in you touting completely made up figures?

If the valuable modules you claim are dropping like candy actually did so, they wouldn't be worth anything. It's a catch 22. They're massively expensive because the drop rates are so very low. Rattling off a list of rare drops as though it was your average grab-bag is just foolish.
Again, if I apply your utterly absurd logic to highsec, I can claim 500mil an hour LP and billions an hour in drops.

When you average it out over more than a sample of one, you find nullsec exploration nets you something in the region of 80-120mil an hour, and is extremely high effort (scan scan scan scan scan scan scan).

There are three possible reasons you're posting these claims:

1 - You actually believe it is true (terminally poor critical reasoning, mathematics / statistic skills needed)
2 - LOLZ I TROLLZ
3 - You think other posters fit in to category 1, and think you can therefore convince them it's true to try to have a group push towards a nerf. Your reason for this seems to be that you can't post without blubbing and crying grrrGOONs.

To be trying number 3, you need to lack a basic understanding of game design; CCP have a loot table and know how often stuff drops.

Honestly I don't know which one I would wish you to be in.

I don't dislike Goons any more than the rest of the big alliances, or the rest of CFC. Not sure where you get that idea. I dislike the big alliances in general. They're overall risk averse carebear's that seem unable to undock when I come into their systems unless of course they outnumber me 50 to 1.

Having said that there are some people I respect in EVE, people you see camping a gate by themselves or in a small gang in something bigger than a frigate.

That brings me to how I can answer your questions regarding my income - you see I go everywhere. There is no invisible red line I can't cross like a renter, or no safe space / unsafe space I won't go into because its all unsafe space. Everyone tries to kill me so Goonsec, or Russian space, or Curse, or Branch, Period Basis, I have the entire galaxy to run plexes in and that's why I'm not restricted to your little bubbles of safety one or two systems over from nearest hub so you can call for help.

In short I make that much income and get those good drops because I'm not a coward. Hit F10 and have a look at your respective area, set it to NPC's killed, set it to pilots in space, see those big blobs on both those settings, they're you and your alliance hiding in your bubbles eeking out a living on anoms and the rare plex that someone else doesnt' grab.

Now look left, right, up, down, see those unlit areas? That's where your alliance and you don't go, that's where the unrun plexes are. There's tons of them.

You know right after Marauders came out I grabbed one, fit it with 1.5 billion in mods and took it to Pure Blind, found a Maze and promptly got it blown to bits by citadel torpedo's. Not sure wtf happened there but anyway, I decided to go back in my trusty Ishtar 2 days later and saw the bookmark in local to the maze. As I do I clicked on it to make sure it didn't give me a popup before I deleted it and it did... so that Maze was there for 3 days roughly and nobody ran it.

Ponder this : 3 sites for this loot, how much per site did I make on average?


In shadowbane what typically happened was everyone would team up to take out the only people who wanted to actually pvp, then they would form some huge alliance and go back to carebearing farming for loot and ****, eventually people got bored and quit.

Large alliances are the nail in the coffin for pvp, and keeping the game interesting, conflict is why this game is fun, other people rather farm isk and build unlimited titans, and unlimited capital ships, then act like vaginas when it comes to pvp, hence blob wars that crash the server.

I think the original dev team who designed the titan doomsday intended for it to solve the lag problem, by removing all the ships with its aoe kill all overpowered ****. Now you got the lag, and no way to stop it.

So what can we do to solve that problem? Obviously you have to limited the amount of ships allowed into a node, and make it so that each side has even numbers, then you take the sandbox and throw it right out the window.

Click here to get something special for new players, an EvE Trial Invitation extremely rare, high quality.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#925 - 2013-12-19 06:14:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Knights Armament wrote:

In shadowbane what typically happened was everyone would team up to take out the only people who wanted to actually pvp, then they would form some huge alliance and go back to carebearing farming for loot and ****, eventually people got bored and quit.

Large alliances are the nail in the coffin for pvp, and keeping the game interesting, conflict is why this game is fun, other people rather farm isk and build unlimited titans, and unlimited capital ships, then act like vaginas when it comes to pvp, hence blob wars that crash the server.

I think the original dev team who designed the titan doomsday intended for it to solve the lag problem, by removing all the ships with its aoe kill all overpowered ****. Now you got the lag, and no way to stop it.

So what can we do to solve that problem? Obviously you have to limited the amount of ships allowed into a node, and make it so that each side has even numbers, then you take the sandbox and throw it right out the window.

Good post. I was actually thinking about how we're likely getting to the stage where one coalition controls 70% of the entire map. I think it was an unintended effect of adding the additional links between regions as well as the number of bridges we have. If you ever ever put cyno fields and generators on in map you'll understand what I mean...

The lack of regional links were a good way to separate regions from monopoly alliances. I used to be able to hit a deep null system as a destination and get a good 160 jump return waypoint list. Now I'm lucky if I get 40 jumps.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#926 - 2013-12-19 06:24:21 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
I think the original dev team who designed the titan doomsday intended for it to solve the lag problem, by removing all the ships with its aoe kill all overpowered ****. Now you got the lag, and no way to stop it.

Interesting.

A major alliance might have two or even three of these ships, right?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#927 - 2013-12-19 06:29:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Knights Armament wrote:
In shadowbane what typically happened was everyone would team up to take out the only people who wanted to actually pvp, then they would form some huge alliance and go back to carebearing farming for loot and ****, eventually people got bored and quit.

Large alliances are the nail in the coffin for pvp, and keeping the game interesting, conflict is why this game is fun, other people rather farm isk and build unlimited titans, and unlimited capital ships, then act like vaginas when it comes to pvp, hence blob wars that crash the server.

I think the original dev team who designed the titan doomsday intended for it to solve the lag problem, by removing all the ships with its aoe kill all overpowered ****. Now you got the lag, and no way to stop it.

So what can we do to solve that problem? Obviously you have to limited the amount of ships allowed into a node, and make it so that each side has even numbers, then you take the sandbox and throw it right out the window.


I think this is a naive outlook.

EVE is pretty objective driven. To understand why players behave the way they do, all you have to do is look at the objectives they are trying to accomplish.

The state of Sov right now is a game of timers. Timers are what encourage blobbing. Whenever you want to attack something big like sov/stations, you force the creation of a timing window.

This timing window encourages a giant blob on both sides. That's a given. There's no smooth gradient of aggression which would allow for effective multi-faceted attacks. It's all or nothing, always.

And this all-or-nothing timing window is what incentivizes the creation of these massive capital fleets -- because that's the optimal strategy for blobbing. It's to maintain ultimate control over a system with the largest and most powerful all-in fleet possible.

There is no other outcome. It's all a reflection of the way sov works. Sov is the real enemy here...Or more broadly, the prevalence of timer-based mechanics.

Players will always trend towards optimum strategies within the rules -- you can't fault anybody for that.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#928 - 2013-12-19 08:31:30 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:


I really like this post. It mirrors experiences similar to my own.

While it is true that the sigs and anoms of null are not "infinite" they are so abundant that they might as well be. There is always more.

Most of null is empty. Nearly every system will have open sigs and anoms of various types, with little activity. They are just there for the taking, for whoever flies in -- and they are a lot more valuable than the comparable spawns in highsec...by design.

The idea that it's horribly awfully risky is just a lie. It isn't. Unless you have some sort of ****** moment and jump or warp straight into a camp, there's not much people can do to hinder your movement.


Most of null is empty because even when upgraded you will earn more doing level 4 missions. There are few good truesec systems and they get full rather quickly. Equally sigs cannot support a population bigger than 100 per region. We also have to dock up our ratting ships every time s neut/gang passes through, something you do not have to do in high sec which also eats into your earnings.

The best anom systems are equaled or beaten by high sec level 4s and way outclassed by highsec incursions both of which are as near to perfect safety as you can get.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#929 - 2013-12-19 08:41:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:


I really like this post. It mirrors experiences similar to my own.

While it is true that the sigs and anoms of null are not "infinite" they are so abundant that they might as well be. There is always more.

Most of null is empty. Nearly every system will have open sigs and anoms of various types, with little activity. They are just there for the taking, for whoever flies in -- and they are a lot more valuable than the comparable spawns in highsec...by design.

The idea that it's horribly awfully risky is just a lie. It isn't. Unless you have some sort of ****** moment and jump or warp straight into a camp, there's not much people can do to hinder your movement.


Most of null is empty because even when upgraded you will earn more doing level 4 missions. There are few good truesec systems and they get full rather quickly. Equally sigs cannot support a population bigger than 100 per region. We also have to dock up our ratting ships every time s neut/gang passes through, something you do not have to do in high sec which also eats into your earnings.

The best anom systems are equaled or beaten by high sec level 4s and way outclassed by highsec incursions both of which are as near to perfect safety as you can get.

but what if we simply assume away all those issues

then nullsec needs a nerf doesn't it

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#930 - 2013-12-19 08:52:02 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

but what if we simply assume away all those issues

then nullsec needs a nerf doesn't it


Undoubtedly. Curse these easy to find facts and their ability to punch holes in high sec bears arguments!
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#931 - 2013-12-19 10:05:06 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:


I really like this post. It mirrors experiences similar to my own.

While it is true that the sigs and anoms of null are not "infinite" they are so abundant that they might as well be. There is always more.

Most of null is empty. Nearly every system will have open sigs and anoms of various types, with little activity. They are just there for the taking, for whoever flies in -- and they are a lot more valuable than the comparable spawns in highsec...by design.

The idea that it's horribly awfully risky is just a lie. It isn't. Unless you have some sort of ****** moment and jump or warp straight into a camp, there's not much people can do to hinder your movement.


Most of null is empty because even when upgraded you will earn more doing level 4 missions. There are few good truesec systems and they get full rather quickly. Equally sigs cannot support a population bigger than 100 per region. We also have to dock up our ratting ships every time s neut/gang passes through, something you do not have to do in high sec which also eats into your earnings.

The best anom systems are equaled or beaten by high sec level 4s and way outclassed by highsec incursions both of which are as near to perfect safety as you can get.

This is clearly not gelling with the facts. Take the last pic I linked, clearly I did 3 sigs as evidenced by the 3 OE's, I got 5 faction spawns as evidenced by the tags, and made about 1.5 billion. If you look at the loot history you'll see it took a little over an hour to do one combat sig that dropped about 900 million. Given the number of dark blood loot that dropped from those 3 sites you're explanation is pretty unbelievable. Also note that that loot came from Period Basis, a pretty garbage region with pretty garbage systems. Definitely not from anything above -0.5.

Regarding your "have to dock up for gangs and neutrals", no you don't, that's a choice your alliance makes because you choose NBSI or Shoot Every Thing That Moves. Its a choice, not a requirement. Spare us the tears. I haven't docked up for a few months and I see neutrals and gangs all the time.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#932 - 2013-12-19 10:16:37 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:


Most of null is empty. Nearly every system will have open sigs and anoms of various types, with little activity. They are just there for the taking, for whoever flies in -- and they are a lot more valuable than the comparable spawns in highsec...by design.

The idea that it's horribly awfully risky is just a lie. It isn't. Unless you have some sort of ****** moment and jump or warp straight into a camp, there's not much people can do to hinder your movement.


Piths penal has spawned in my system (with entrapment array running) 4 times a month. Guristas reinvig spawns twice per month. Gurista military operations complex spawns 3 times a month, and the maze once per month. Thats the current rate that the entire stationary and moving populations turn them over, and they are probably the fastest turned over of all null ded sigs.

I know of one complex that probably got done that I didn't see (thankyou dotlan) and I know of one military operations complex that I warped into the last pocket of with a pvp ship as the person left.

Those are the actual sig rates per system. The only way you'll see much more on a per system basis over a couple of months average is if you sit around shooting anoms sufficiently to have a pair of level 5 arrays, which requires 3 freighter runs, and 3 JF runs to get the items there, and sets a high minimum isk worth of rats to be shot in regular ratting to keep functional (and as I pointed out before, occupation of the system like that means that roaming players won't take those sigs).

As we've repeated over and over again, there is a very finite number of ded sigs in the universe so there can only be a very finite number of people farming them at any one time. There are less nullsec deds than there are PBLRD characters, let alone CFC and N3 and PL characters logged on and PVEing for isk at any one time.

Null is empty because most of it is flyover territory and doesn't offer good ratting between plexes.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#933 - 2013-12-19 10:26:45 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Infinity Ziona wrote:

This is clearly not gelling with the facts. Take the last pic I linked, clearly I did 3 sigs as evidenced by the 3 OE's, I got 5 faction spawns as evidenced by the tags, and made about 1.5 billion. If you look at the loot history you'll see it took a little over an hour to do one combat sig that dropped about 900 million. Given the number of dark blood loot that dropped from those 3 sites you're explanation is pretty unbelievable. Also note that that loot came from Period Basis, a pretty garbage region with pretty garbage systems. Definitely not from anything above -0.5.

Regarding your "have to dock up for gangs and neutrals", no you don't, that's a choice your alliance makes because you choose NBSI or Shoot Every Thing That Moves. Its a choice, not a requirement. Spare us the tears. I haven't docked up for a few months and I see neutrals and gangs all the time.


Because PVE ships are well known for their pvp capabilities, especially in the age of interdiction nullified cyno interceptors.

You are also happily still ignoring the fact that you do not get great drops one after another every single time you do sigs and the very big issue that you cannot support tens of thousands of people on these things. They will barely support 100.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#934 - 2013-12-19 10:42:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Because PVE ships are well known for their pvp capabilities, especially in the age of interdiction nullified cyno interceptors.

You are also happily still ignoring the fact that you do not get great drops one after another every single time to do sigs and the very big issue that you cannot support tens of thousands of people on these things. They will barely support 100.

Except the statistics quite clearly show that Null does make better income than High. Trying to go on about how lvl 4 missions make more than null is laughable. Especially since NPC Null has better Lvl 4 agents/payouts. And the same is true with incursions.

Now obviously risk is higher, and the reality is that most people who live in null don't want any risk with their income gathering activities either. nothing to do with possible profit, but they are just as risk adverse as any 'High Sec Carebear' that you like to bash.

Could Null use improvement? Sure, but it's not in total profit possible for an individual, it's in the number of things per system to support high densities of players even in the not perfect -1.0 truesec systems.
Could High use a change? Probably, but it's not in nerfing the income. The individual income is fine. Infinite numbers of players supported on a single lvl 4 agent? That's probably not so fine.

Best way to do both. Create Anomalies with multiple objectives. Not just 'Destroy all the enemy ships'. But include things like hacking towers, research facilities. EWar on certain things. Multiple spread out locations you can destroy to affect the battlefield. Then there is a reason to bring a small gang to do a site. And people may even co-operate mid site rather than shoot each other on site sometimes.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#935 - 2013-12-19 10:53:37 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Except the statistics quite clearly show that Null does make better income than High. Trying to go on about how lvl 4 missions make more than null is laughable. Especially since NPC Null has better Lvl 4 agents/payouts. And the same is true with incursions.



NPC null makes up a tiny percentage of null and none of the sov space.

Null incursions are not run due to the fact that every time an incursion fleet is formed it gets hunted down by endless roaming gangs. Nobody runs then other than to get them out of their space as quickly as possible.
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Now obviously risk is higher, and the reality is that most people who live in null don't want any risk with their income gathering activities either. nothing to do with possible profit, but they are just as risk adverse as any 'High Sec Carebear' that you like to bash.


so you are saying that high sec mission runners will dock up every time a neutral enters local?
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Could Null use improvement? Sure, but it's not in total profit possible for an individual, it's in the number of things per system to support high densities of players even in the not perfect -1.0 truesec systems.
Could High use a change? Probably, but it's not in nerfing the income. The individual income is fine. Infinite numbers of players supported on a single lvl 4 agent? That's probably not so fine.

Best way to do both. Create Anomalies with multiple objectives. Not just 'Destroy all the enemy ships'. But include things like hacking towers, research facilities. EWar on certain things. Multiple spread out locations you can destroy to affect the battlefield. Then there is a reason to bring a small gang to do a site. And people may even co-operate mid site rather than shoot each other on site sometimes.


Or they will just go to high sec and farm much easier missions.

The issue is that over the last decade null sec income has been heavily nerfed while high sec income from missions has at best not been touched and at worst buffed. This has resulted in us finding ourselves in a situation where the best anom systems offer as much reward (or less with some high sec agents) as high sec. Most sov systems are worse than most high sec level 4s which means there is no point in doing anything to most of the sov systems as it is pointless.
Good Posting
Doomheim
#936 - 2013-12-19 11:22:06 UTC
Why do you blame hi sec? grrrr hi sec? Ziona is posting pictures of loot that you can find in null, not in high.
If you don't have the time to run sites nor the will to go alone to find the treasure chest that's a different thing.

Nice Bhaal BPC btw!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#937 - 2013-12-19 14:16:24 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Good Posting wrote:
Why do you blame hi sec? grrrr hi sec? Ziona is posting pictures of loot that you can find in null, not in high.
If you don't have the time to run sites nor the will to go alone to find the treasure chest that's a different thing.

Nice Bhaal BPC btw!


What Ziona isnt telling you is that the isk gets split between multiple chars, requires some time to hunt down and cannot support very many people in an entire region let alone a single system.

Its easy to post one or two good drops but when you look at the big picture you see the issues. For example in the last 7 years I have had two officer spawns and one of them dropped tags and ammo. I can also count the number of time I have had a dread drop in one of my anoms in the last year with one hand and the same goes for escalations.
Good Posting
Doomheim
#938 - 2013-12-19 14:51:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Good Posting wrote:
Why do you blame hi sec? grrrr hi sec? Ziona is posting pictures of loot that you can find in null, not in high.
If you don't have the time to run sites nor the will to go alone to find the treasure chest that's a different thing.

Nice Bhaal BPC btw!


What Ziona isnt telling you is that the isk gets split between multiple chars, requires some time to hunt down and cannot support very many people in an entire region let alone a single system.

Its easy to post one or two good drops but when you look at the big picture you see the issues. For example in the last 7 years I have had two officer spawns and one of them dropped tags and ammo. I can also count the number of time I have had a dread drop in one of my anoms in the last year with one hand and the same goes for escalations.


I know you make little money doing pve in null because when i was in sov warfare i couldn't run many sites because i was always in a fleet. I only have 2 accounts, main and falcon-logi alt and i don't need more.

You have to choose between freedom or fleets and when i got tired of blobs and tidi (i hate this so much) i started to do things on my own and i'm all right, having fun and making isk like i couldn't before. Tengu for complex (sometimes missions) or Proteus for ninja belt ratting is what i use and that is all.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#939 - 2013-12-19 15:24:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
baltec1 wrote:
What Ziona isnt telling you is that the isk gets split between multiple chars, requires some time to hunt down and cannot support very many people in an entire region let alone a single system.


But this is true for highsec as well. If you are optimizing ANY isk-making activity, it's going to require multiple characters.

Anything you do with one character, you could be doing better and faster with multiple.

This SHOULD be common sense....


Quote:
Piths penal has spawned in my system (with entrapment array running) 4 times a month. Guristas reinvig spawns twice per month. Gurista military operations complex spawns 3 times a month, and the maze once per month. Thats the current rate that the entire stationary and moving populations turn them over, and they are probably the fastest turned over of all null ded sigs.


This is whining about a situation that you voluntarily put yourself in.

Again, all your "theory" is pointless when most of null is simply empty. You do not have to pay isk to farm only a singular system, or any system.

Instead you can just NOT pay isk and farm ALL the systems. There are sites everywhere. I have seen 10/10 DED sites go untouched for days.

The concept that you "run out" of sites in null is just so 100% wrong I don't even know how people got this into their heads.

The only way you are going to "run out" is if you put arbitrary and limited restrictions on your farming zone, eg by agreeing to arbitrary and crippling rental agreements.
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
#940 - 2013-12-19 18:43:22 UTC
Ok,

Any nullsec system will always have a higher income than highsec.

If you can get a good team together and go through the belts quickly then you will get officer spawns, faction spawns and hauler spawns.

Officer spawn loot drops can earn you anything from 1 million to 6 billion isk. yes you read that correctly 6 billion isk. faction spawns could be worth up to 1 billion and hauler spawns can drop anything up to about 1.5 billion in minerals.

Lets say a team of 4 guys in battleships went through the belts, the earnings could be anything upto 10 billion a day. This really isn't an exaggeration and there is more than enough money to pay for sov, system upgrades, etc. in NPC null you dont pay anything for sov so all the money is yours.

Have a look at my "Invitation to 0.0" thread on general discussions. There are too many hi-sec dwellers who think they know it all. The truth is you don't know anything about 0.0 unless you have experienced it.

This has been my experience for the last 10 years of playing Eve.

Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie