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High Sec Income vs Null Sec Income - the reality

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#901 - 2013-12-18 20:35:03 UTC
is a "kitchen sink" incursion fleet like... faction instead of deadspace and officer fit?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#902 - 2013-12-18 20:43:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Batelle wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:
i think Jenn is on the money with this one. Infinity, sounds like you have a pretty good thing going there, but please don't try to promote your method as a viable thing for "most" others to do. I have 3 accounts, not 10, so I won't be attempting your... thing... anytime soon.

In my experience, isk/hr is better in high sec. (Not necessarily more fun.) v0v


jenn is cherry picking certain nich LP conversions and exaggerating incursion income as well. its alot, but its not 120m/hr with a "kitchen sink fleet."


3 Hq sites in an hour, that's somehow hard. 115.5 mil is isk plus LP at standard conversion rate (1k isk/lp) I fly with TVP , ISN and Warp to me. of course ISN fleets make way more.

And yoiu can look at Dotlan and get their logs for Osmon before the announcement of the Sister's ships. That's not a niche. Neither is cosmos farming or the Thukker agents of the really nice things you can get out of some other "normal" LP stores (hello Allotek industries and Bank of Luminaire).

Or maybe it's all just a dream lol.
Alex Sorensen
Obsidian Reclamation Enterprise
#903 - 2013-12-18 21:02:47 UTC
Wow, reading this thread has made me realize what noobs you all are.



I can EASILY generate 1.5 billion ISK per day using my Venture with my pro mining strategies.

Come on guys, at least try and keep up.

sig
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#904 - 2013-12-18 21:02:59 UTC
Incursions seem pretty nice.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#905 - 2013-12-18 21:30:07 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
i think Jenn is on the money with this one. Infinity, sounds like you have a pretty good thing going there, but please don't try to promote your method as a viable thing for "most" others to do. I have 3 accounts, not 10, so I won't be attempting your... thing... anytime soon.

In my experience, isk/hr is better in high sec. (Not necessarily more fun.) v0v

If your not making more isk/hr in null then your doing it wrong. I was actually looking at dropping my hi-sec toons because they are not cost effective.
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#906 - 2013-12-18 21:31:56 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:
i think Jenn is on the money with this one. Infinity, sounds like you have a pretty good thing going there, but please don't try to promote your method as a viable thing for "most" others to do. I have 3 accounts, not 10, so I won't be attempting your... thing... anytime soon.

In my experience, isk/hr is better in high sec. (Not necessarily more fun.) v0v


jenn is cherry picking certain nich LP conversions and exaggerating incursion income as well. its alot, but its not 120m/hr with a "kitchen sink fleet."


3 Hq sites in an hour, that's somehow hard. 115.5 mil is isk plus LP at standard conversion rate (1k isk/lp) I fly with TVP , ISN and Warp to me. of course ISN fleets make way more.

And yoiu can look at Dotlan and get their logs for Osmon before the announcement of the Sister's ships. That's not a niche. Neither is cosmos farming or the Thukker agents of the really nice things you can get out of some other "normal" LP stores (hello Allotek industries and Bank of Luminaire).

Or maybe it's all just a dream lol.

How much isk/hr are you making on incursions when the groups are being tools and killing the queen?

ZERO
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#907 - 2013-12-18 21:33:56 UTC
If any one is still reading this terrible thread, just remember;

Everyone lies about how much isk they are making.

The OP is also a textbook case of why anecdotes are not data. Not factoring in travel time. Using only plexes instead of the anoms most people run. Not figuring in that there are not enough plexes for all the members of GSF to run when ever they want. Not running enough plexes to actually get enough data for a relevant average income.

I also find it funny that OP thinks we aren't running these plexes, and then mentions that those pirate BS BPCs (Rattlesnakes if they got them in Deklein) sold for only 600mil, which is actually high for a Rattlesnake BPC because we have farmed them into the ground by running so many plexes. But don't believe me, go check the contracts in Jita for Rattlesnake BPC.


The lesson everyone should take away from this is;

Do not compare ratting income on the eve-o forums, because some one will come along with a better exaggeration than yours.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#908 - 2013-12-18 21:37:08 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
If any one is still reading this terrible thread, just remember;

Everyone lies about how much isk they are making.

The OP is also a textbook case of why anecdotes are not data. Not factoring in travel time. Using only plexes instead of the anoms most people run. Not figuring in that there are not enough plexes for all the members of GSF to run when ever they want. Not running enough plexes to actually get enough data for a relevant average income.

I also find it funny that OP thinks we aren't running these plexes, and then mentions that those pirate BS BPCs (Rattlesnakes if they got them in Deklein) sold for only 600mil, which is actually high for a Rattlesnake BPC because we have farmed them into the ground by running so many plexes. But don't believe me, go check the contracts in Jita for Rattlesnake BPC.


The lesson everyone should take away from this is;

Do not compare ratting income on the eve-o forums, because some one will come along with a better exaggeration than yours.



I make a billion ISK a day running lvl 2s in Old Man Star with a Kestrel.

Just kidding.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#909 - 2013-12-18 21:38:45 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:
i think Jenn is on the money with this one. Infinity, sounds like you have a pretty good thing going there, but please don't try to promote your method as a viable thing for "most" others to do. I have 3 accounts, not 10, so I won't be attempting your... thing... anytime soon.

In my experience, isk/hr is better in high sec. (Not necessarily more fun.) v0v


jenn is cherry picking certain nich LP conversions and exaggerating incursion income as well. its alot, but its not 120m/hr with a "kitchen sink fleet."


3 Hq sites in an hour, that's somehow hard. 115.5 mil is isk plus LP at standard conversion rate (1k isk/lp) I fly with TVP , ISN and Warp to me. of course ISN fleets make way more.

And yoiu can look at Dotlan and get their logs for Osmon before the announcement of the Sister's ships. That's not a niche. Neither is cosmos farming or the Thukker agents of the really nice things you can get out of some other "normal" LP stores (hello Allotek industries and Bank of Luminaire).

Or maybe it's all just a dream lol.

How much isk/hr are you making on incursions when the groups are being tools and killing the queen?

ZERO



This is true, which is why I meantion Sister's of EVE, Trust Partners, Cosmos farming, and used the example of the Bank of Luminare and Allotek There are plenty of others that can get you too or close to the magical 2k isk/lp markand have agents in 0.5/0.6 (max high sec LP gain) systems. The thread is about High Sec isk making.

Incursions being disruptable is it's one real saving grace. Missions are less disruptable.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#910 - 2013-12-18 22:45:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Quote:
I can easily make a billion isk per day running between 2 and 5 sites


No, you can't. Before you completely fabricated your OP to conveniently prove a point you keep making but have no evidence for, did you stop to look at the escalation chance for these?

If you rat 24/7 in a blaster ship doing anoms as fast as possible, you might get one a week on average. It's a very small part of your total income, that's barely worth counting.

Anyway not going to read 45 pages of you justifying "stuff I made up" so just gonna go with "stop making it up plz".

Also CCP know real numbers and balance based on it, so exactly who are you trying to convince?

Lol, yes I can.

Combat sites not anoms. Example: Troop reinvigoration. 50 mill OE. Gila BPC. Multi-hundred million isk mod drops. 1.5 billion Invul. 6/10. 20 minutes.

Ghost Sites - Ascdency BPC's. 2 minutes.

A single good dropping site can put you into the billions. An average can get you 400-500 million.

A crappy one will still make you 100 million off bounties, OE's and a crappy module.


[citation needed]

I ask the same question again, what is the value in you touting completely made up figures?

If the valuable modules you claim are dropping like candy actually did so, they wouldn't be worth anything. It's a catch 22. They're massively expensive because the drop rates are so very low. Rattling off a list of rare drops as though it was your average grab-bag is just foolish.
Again, if I apply your utterly absurd logic to highsec, I can claim 500mil an hour LP and billions an hour in drops.

When you average it out over more than a sample of one, you find nullsec exploration nets you something in the region of 80-120mil an hour, and is extremely high effort (scan scan scan scan scan scan scan).

There are three possible reasons you're posting these claims:

1 - You actually believe it is true (terminally poor critical reasoning, mathematics / statistic skills needed)
2 - LOLZ I TROLLZ
3 - You think other posters fit in to category 1, and think you can therefore convince them it's true to try to have a group push towards a nerf. Your reason for this seems to be that you can't post without blubbing and crying grrrGOONs.

To be trying number 3, you need to lack a basic understanding of game design; CCP have a loot table and know how often stuff drops.

Honestly I don't know which one I would wish you to be in.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Bel Tika
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#911 - 2013-12-18 22:53:05 UTC
i make 40 mill a day mining scordite an im happy :P

ok maybe 20
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#912 - 2013-12-18 23:30:43 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:
i think Jenn is on the money with this one. Infinity, sounds like you have a pretty good thing going there, but please don't try to promote your method as a viable thing for "most" others to do. I have 3 accounts, not 10, so I won't be attempting your... thing... anytime soon.

In my experience, isk/hr is better in high sec. (Not necessarily more fun.) v0v

If your not making more isk/hr in null then your doing it wrong. I was actually looking at dropping my hi-sec toons because they are not cost effective.


Perhaps. Or perhaps you're doing your hi-sec iskage wrong? Shocked

Bacon makes us stronger
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#913 - 2013-12-18 23:30:50 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Quote:
I can easily make a billion isk per day running between 2 and 5 sites


No, you can't. Before you completely fabricated your OP to conveniently prove a point you keep making but have no evidence for, did you stop to look at the escalation chance for these?

If you rat 24/7 in a blaster ship doing anoms as fast as possible, you might get one a week on average. It's a very small part of your total income, that's barely worth counting.

Anyway not going to read 45 pages of you justifying "stuff I made up" so just gonna go with "stop making it up plz".

Also CCP know real numbers and balance based on it, so exactly who are you trying to convince?

Lol, yes I can.

Combat sites not anoms. Example: Troop reinvigoration. 50 mill OE. Gila BPC. Multi-hundred million isk mod drops. 1.5 billion Invul. 6/10. 20 minutes.

Ghost Sites - Ascdency BPC's. 2 minutes.

A single good dropping site can put you into the billions. An average can get you 400-500 million.

A crappy one will still make you 100 million off bounties, OE's and a crappy module.


[citation needed]

I ask the same question again, what is the value in you touting completely made up figures?

If the valuable modules you claim are dropping like candy actually did so, they wouldn't be worth anything. It's a catch 22. They're massively expensive because the drop rates are so very low. Rattling off a list of rare drops as though it was your average grab-bag is just foolish.
Again, if I apply your utterly absurd logic to highsec, I can claim 500mil an hour LP and billions an hour in drops.

When you average it out over more than a sample of one, you find nullsec exploration nets you something in the region of 80-120mil an hour, and is extremely high effort (scan scan scan scan scan scan scan).

There are three possible reasons you're posting these claims:

1 - You actually believe it is true (terminally poor critical reasoning, mathematics / statistic skills needed)
2 - LOLZ I TROLLZ
3 - You think other posters fit in to category 1, and think you can therefore convince them it's true to try to have a group push towards a nerf. Your reason for this seems to be that you can't post without blubbing and crying grrrGOONs.

To be trying number 3, you need to lack a basic understanding of game design; CCP have a loot table and know how often stuff drops.

Honestly I don't know which one I would wish you to be in.

Haha, man I wish I constant got faction spawns that gave crystal drops and fsp escalations that gave good stuff like you do

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#914 - 2013-12-19 00:10:14 UTC

Since this "conversation" has come back around full circle...

Eram Fidard wrote:
Some reality to the situation:

1. Run first two stages of FSP
2. Spend fuel and time getting capital to final stage
3. Loot 100m worth of OSE

^^more worth your time to mission

1. Run first room of _____
2. Run second room
3. No faction spawn, shoot stuff, no escalation

^^more worth your time to mission

1. Run first room of ______
2. Run second room
3. Faction Spawn! Yay! Dropped....a tag
4. Escalation Yay!
5. Fly to first escalation
6. Run first esc
7. No faction spawn, oh well on to next one!
8. Fly to second esc
9. Run second esc
10. A faction spawn!! Dropped....tags.
11. Well, at least it escalated, right?
12. Fly to third escalation, by now you are in some NPC region, drone lands, or jove space.
13. Run third (final this time) esc
14. Barely tank it, but as expected all is well, 3 hours later.
15. Loot...100m OSE. Or a 70m hardener.

^^more worth your time to mine scordite

Methinks you haven't completed enough exploration to truly see the pattern. It is essentially make-work gambling, and the payouts are great, if you get them. When you don't, you sincerely wish you had spent the time doing just about anything else. No the bounties are not that good, if people even ran exploration for the bounties.

Great you had some luck but don't get peoples' hopes up expecting 1b/hour because that's not the reality.

On the other hand, I absolutely love this thread, since it may bring juicy loot pinatas like that ishtar into a region near me!!



Ziona's "Reality":

1. Run Site
2. 1b isk/hour, bam!

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#915 - 2013-12-19 00:22:56 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:

Since this "conversation" has come back around full circle...

Eram Fidard wrote:
Some reality to the situation:

1. Run first two stages of FSP
2. Spend fuel and time getting capital to final stage
3. Loot 100m worth of OSE

^^more worth your time to mission

1. Run first room of _____
2. Run second room
3. No faction spawn, shoot stuff, no escalation

^^more worth your time to mission

1. Run first room of ______
2. Run second room
3. Faction Spawn! Yay! Dropped....a tag
4. Escalation Yay!
5. Fly to first escalation
6. Run first esc
7. No faction spawn, oh well on to next one!
8. Fly to second esc
9. Run second esc
10. A faction spawn!! Dropped....tags.
11. Well, at least it escalated, right?
12. Fly to third escalation, by now you are in some NPC region, drone lands, or jove space.
13. Run third (final this time) esc
14. Barely tank it, but as expected all is well, 3 hours later.
15. Loot...100m OSE. Or a 70m hardener.

^^more worth your time to mine scordite

Methinks you haven't completed enough exploration to truly see the pattern. It is essentially make-work gambling, and the payouts are great, if you get them. When you don't, you sincerely wish you had spent the time doing just about anything else. No the bounties are not that good, if people even ran exploration for the bounties.

Great you had some luck but don't get peoples' hopes up expecting 1b/hour because that's not the reality.

On the other hand, I absolutely love this thread, since it may bring juicy loot pinatas like that ishtar into a region near me!!

Ziona's "Reality":

1. Run Site
2. 1b isk/hour, bam!

Man, it would be so much faster to get a titan like this, why aren't goons grabbing faction drops everywhere

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Jered Hakaaros
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#916 - 2013-12-19 00:31:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jered Hakaaros
Now, we are all just humans. Humans exaggerate. Fact is: Nullsec income is and should always be a lot higher than high-sec income of a comparable profession.

I did a lot of L4s in the beginning. After joining null, my income rose to new heights. As a belt ratter you were in the lowest class of income, and with 2 good hours ratting a day I could still easily catch my 1 or 1,5B a month, buying the PLEX from the loot sales and keeping everything else for fun.

Exploration and good DED sites double or even triple that income, in half the time playing. A good nullsec explorer who plays casually (1 hour a day average) does make his 3 billion or more a month if he knows what he is doing, so is someone adept at running 7/10 or similar sites. Add additional playtime or alts to that, and that figure rises yet again.

Of course there are only a limited number of sites, but currently most of nullsec is empty enough that anyone can do as much as he wants as long as he wants (or as long as he lives).

Then of course come high-end and highly investement/skill/intuition based professions, mostly involving the use of POSes, as well as null/high traders. However, income here is too variable and dependant solely on the player.
Dirk Massive
D.O.O.M.
#917 - 2013-12-19 04:15:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirk Massive
Jenn aSide wrote:
Bel Tika wrote:
I dont really care what ppl in null earn compared to ppl in Hi-Sec or vice versa, all im interested in is how i spend my time in a game i am paying to play, what others do is not really my concern, what others earn is also not my concern, if they make 100 times what i do in same amount of time so be it and good luck to them, i honestly dont care, as long as i myself am having fun thats all that matters

Just because what i do you might consider a waste of time and what u do i might consider a waste of time does not make it a waste of time or irrelevant to the person doing it


I don't care either, but not caring is no excuse for borked and broken game design. Many many people make more isk than I do, when you get right down to it , combat PVE is a "just ok" but grindy way to make isk. Building, researching, trading , manipulating (getting 2 sides to fight then selling both of them guns :) ) is much much better, but i play for fun.

Last night I logged in my Machariel Pilot in null sec and went to doing anomalies in an upgraded system. in an 800 million isk (hull cost) ship. The mach is super good at it and I was averaging 35 mil ticks (105 mil an hour). It was cool, just had to watch local and intel channel like a hawk.

But that same mach in a high sec incursion would have made 120+ mil an hour in a kitchen sink fleet while doing nothing more strenuous than listening for my shiled alarm to go off and anchoring on a dude who typed "aaa" in fleet chat.. Hell, since I fly logi I wouldn't have had to invest in an 800 mil mach or 1.2 bil Vindicator to make that isk, i could just flown a much cheaper basilisk.

In Lanngisi or Osmon it could have made up to 165 mil an hour with that same one ship SOLO selling nothing but Sisters of EVE core and combat probes (as i've been doing for the least 5 years, some nubs think SOE items are valuable because of some gold rush) while not getting ganked because my mission mach isn't blinged out. Even taking sisters and trust partners out of the equation there are plenty of high sec combat pve opportunists that make it basically stupid to risk ships outside of high sec. And that's the problem.



The way it should work is that:

High Sec: can make a basic living but the rewards are dampened because of the trade off that is the game's automatic security measures (CONCORD, crime watch).

Low Sec: Much More risk, so better rewards than what you can pull off in high sec. Still some automated protection (gate guns, sec loss) so not the best rewards, but more than enough to sustain an in-game life without having to go to high sec.

Null Sec: No protection other than what players can provide, so MUCH better rewards, from high end content not available in Empire space.

Wormholes: The extreme frontier of EVE, with the most extreme rewards for the risk and effort involved.



But what actually happens? Well:

High Sec: don't wanna fleet up for high sec incursions (which are an invasion by sansha forces so powerful CONCORD can't stop them but there's enough CONCORD around to still insta pop anyone who shoots another player without a war dec or criminal flag.....) Fine, get standings with either SOE, or Thukker, or learn how to farm COSMOS, and find the hidden gems of extreme isk/lp conversion in other high sec npc corps and screw everything else. Might as well take those isk making alts out of wormholes, low and null and put them in high sec.

Low Sec: lol lvl5 missions and rare spawns in belts and better exploration content... just get cheap ship and orbit button in faction warfare, or better yet, get slightly less cheap ship like Caracal, do FW lvl4 missions that aren't really lvl 4 missions and make at least half a BILLION isk per hour risking at best 25 mil worth of cruiser.

Null Sec:

Wormholes: Juice still worth the squeeze but why am i flying around where I'm likely to be killed when I can just go to high sec of FW low and risk very little?

Broken is broken. I hate to say "back in my day" but yea, back in my day if you wanted null income, you went to null. The game should return to that.


I have to say this makes perfect sense to me. Seems to me this is how it SHOULD be.

And on the second part your right, this is how things currently are.

I agree the game could be tweeked some to make this pve / reward issue better, or should I say make more sense. I also know that pretty much in every game there are things that don't seem right, and should be changed. CCP has been making changes over the years. This would be a good one for them to look at fixing next I'd say.

**Bringing WAR and TERROR to a system near you.... **
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#918 - 2013-12-19 05:15:10 UTC
What I have learned from this thread: That the Ishtar is obviously so insanely overpowered that it is not even amusing. A frigate that can solo it's way through the toughest missions in the game, shredding through hordes battleships like so much tissue paper? And apparently it is no less of an instant "I Win" button in the PvP realm, either.

I have no qualms with the idea of the mechanics of Incursion fleets. Vast investment of time, training and capital. Large, organized group of players taking well-coordinated actions against difficult foes for equally great rewards. Yet when I read stories of a frigate pilot, acting on their own, can gain even greater wealth and with even less risk? I do not care if it is made from 100% pure Jovian technology - this is simply wrong.

Naturally all of the Ishtar pilots will disagree with me, because their easy-mode lifestyle is so dependent on CCP never, ever touching their precious death-gnat. I for one, however, find the situation created by this ship's existence to be simply appalling.

The sound of the Amarrian heart
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#919 - 2013-12-19 05:26:24 UTC
You might want to check on that Ishtar = frigate thing.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#920 - 2013-12-19 05:27:59 UTC
So much citation needed

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?