These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

High Sec Income vs Null Sec Income - the reality

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#861 - 2013-12-17 23:48:57 UTC
except again: it's free.

you don't get to "own" the system.

i farm in systems that are "rented" by others all the time. there's not much they can do to stop me.

nullsec is free and open. there are no padlocks on the gates. renting is a scam.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#862 - 2013-12-18 00:53:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Pinky Hops wrote:
except again: it's free.

you don't get to "own" the system.

i farm in systems that are "rented" by others all the time. there's not much they can do to stop me.

nullsec is free and open. there are no padlocks on the gates. renting is a scam.


You are paying for docking rights, and no contest from your blues for content in your system, and protection for the ihub - ie a rental system from the majors has 30% of all null blue, which usually happens to represent 95% of the players gating into your rental.

Docking rights means any belligerent renter should be able to discourage neutral plexboats because the renter should have a selection of good counters to choose from. I have 5 pvp boats here at the moment, one of which (since it is used for herons) currently has earned 100m beyond its purchase cost, because herons drop good loots.

I can see it in natural behavior of regular freebooters in Vale. After losses or repeated engagements they naturally default to the constellations that produce the least engagements (and get called out on intel, so I know when we' ve discouraged one). 2 sets of belligerents in 1 constellation is what they don't like.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#863 - 2013-12-18 01:26:08 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
and no contest from your blues for content in your system.


double edged sword. now you can't farm all the neighboring systems, because somebody else is "renting" those Roll

scam is scam. intelligent people do not rent.

but a sucker is born every day, so i'm sure you will always find that "special somebody" Big smile
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#864 - 2013-12-18 01:37:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Eram Fidard
You just keep saying the same thing over and over like that makes it true.

The fact remains, people play the game how they like.

You being a solo player and enjoying that playstyle has absolutely nothing to do with people who want to work together in a group and have a place to call their own.

Here's some more facts for you:

-Infrastructure costs isk and time investment

-Taking space costs isk and time investment

-Holding space costs isk and time investment

-People are willing to pay a premium to avoid those expenses


What do you have against a free market? Are you personally supplying every part of eve with outfits at jita prices? Is anyone?

The answer is no, people pay a premium for the convenience of having items accessible at a market near them.

How is it any different to rent space?

Premium for Convenience. It's a fundamental tenet of the free market how do you not understand that?

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#865 - 2013-12-18 01:50:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Eram Fidard wrote:
You being a solo player and enjoying that playstyle has absolutely nothing to do with people who want to work together in a group and have a place to call their own.


I'm not a solo player.

Choosing to not participate in a racketeering/scam agreement doesn't mean I don't play with other people.

I have no idea where you get this crap from.

Eram Fidard wrote:
What do you have against a free market? Are you personally supplying every part of eve with outfits at jita prices? Is anyone?


Racketeering is the exact opposite of a free market and is illegal in most real world places because it discourages free market, and encourages crime.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#866 - 2013-12-18 02:02:27 UTC
Nice, ignore every point I make, and pick out the ludicrous bits I added to show you what an idiot you are.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#867 - 2013-12-18 02:08:28 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:

I'm not a solo player.

Choosing to not participate in a racketeering/scam agreement doesn't mean I don't play with other people.

I have no idea where you get this crap from.




Can you show us on the map where your alliance holds space? I know your corporation has a 0% tax rate, so you can't provide any services.

Your "solo playstyle" has nothing to do with whether you occasionally fleet up and everything to do with the fact that you are "self-sufficient" and tend to wander out in deep space far from amenities. That may work just fine for you (it does for lots of people, I did it myself for about a year and a half) but it's not for everyone.

There are renters who are much smarter than you, just because they pay rent doesn't instantly make them racketeering/scam victims. They are Paying a premium for a convenience.

Fresh milk doesn't magically appear thousands of km from where it's produced.

How do you still not get this?

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#868 - 2013-12-18 02:09:04 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
Nice, ignore every point I make, and pick out the ludicrous bits I added to show you what an idiot you are.


I didn't see any relevant points. Docking is not worth billions per system when 75% of null is within 10 - 15 jumps of NPC space.

For even more convenience, have you ever used secure containers before? Roll

The "something to call your own" argument is completely insane. You don't own it. You never will. You get docking rights. That's not "ownership."

You can't "own" space in EVE. Even sov is not ownership.

True story: I once showed a renter how to use a secure container. They stopped renting.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#869 - 2013-12-18 02:15:10 UTC
LOL, living out of secure cans.

Man what a hearty chuckle.

Thank you, haven't considered that since I was new and space-poor.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#870 - 2013-12-18 02:17:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Eram Fidard wrote:
LOL, living out of secure cans.

Man what a hearty chuckle.

Thank you, haven't considered that since I was new and space-poor.


It's a convenience. You would live out of a station -- you know -- the giant swaths of NPC nullsec where anybody can freely dock? Roll

"LOL" indeed.

This whole argument reminds me of the type of person who just can't feel like they have something unless they give somebody else money for it.

They are ripe to be scammed -- as they are eager to give their ISK to others under the guise of "ownership." (which is a lie -- you do not get to "own" anything)
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#871 - 2013-12-18 02:18:47 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:

I didn't see any relevant points. Docking is not worth billions per system when 75% of null is within 10 - 15 jumps of NPC space.


Jumb bridges are free, there's no such thing as pos fuel cost reductions, and scraping the sites that others have left behind is less effort than undocking and warping to an anom. Sov grants itself, is never attacked, and ticks over all on it's own. Mining isn't even a thing, and everybody should be content to only fly herons.

What world do you live in?

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Good Posting
Doomheim
#872 - 2013-12-18 02:19:18 UTC
Why rent space if you can make more isk in a hi sec system with a l4 agent. I'm just quoting your land lords here.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#873 - 2013-12-18 02:20:51 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
the giant swaths of NPC nullsec where anybody can freely dock? Roll

"LOL" indeed.


The giant swaths of NPC null that don't have a single hostile living there, right?

Delusional.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#874 - 2013-12-18 02:21:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Eram Fidard wrote:
What world do you live in?


I live in a world that doesn't cost ~5b per system per month to farm.

I live in a world where I can farm any system I want, whenever I want, with whomever I want.

I live in a world where I can form gangs and gank people regardless of what corp or alliance they are in.

Basically, I live in nullsec, but without being scammed.

Eram Fidard wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
the giant swaths of NPC nullsec where anybody can freely dock? Roll

"LOL" indeed.


The giant swaths of NPC null that don't have a single hostile living there, right?

Delusional.


Yes, because paying somebody billions of ISK means that you will be 100% safe! Roll See: racketeering. Who is delusional again?

You don't get any additional safety. The funny part is, nullsec is plenty safe as it is, because it's mostly empty.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#875 - 2013-12-18 02:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Eram Fidard
Confirming NPC Null Is Totally Empty And Safe And You Should Totally Believe Everything Pinky Says,.

*pssst in case you didn't notice I'm being facetious when I capitalize every word

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#876 - 2013-12-18 02:39:26 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
Confirming NPC Null Is Totally Empty And Safe And You Should Totally Believe Everything Pinky Says,.

*pssst in case you didn't notice I'm being facetious when I capitalize every word


Yes, referencing some of the most active pvp regions of null in is a sure way to prove your point.

Here's a tip: open up what is called the "map" in EVE. Then filter by the amount of pilots in the system, then the number of jumps per hour, the amount of pilots docked, and the amount of ships killed in the last hour...

I wonder what kind of patterns you will notice....

These tools are very complex and hard to use. It might take you several tries.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#877 - 2013-12-18 03:25:19 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
and no contest from your blues for content in your system.


double edged sword. now you can't farm all the neighboring systems, because somebody else is "renting" those Roll

scam is scam. intelligent people do not rent.

but a sucker is born every day, so i'm sure you will always find that "special somebody" Big smile


I find it amusing that you fail to read the thread, and see how often this argument has been debunked. I stand still, so I know how many sigs spawn in a system per day. I can (and do) see how many sigs spawned in my constellation, so I have reasonable basis for extrapolating that to the entire nullsec system population of sigs.

1 - the total number of people freely seeking signatures at any one time is finite. It is probably less than 500 players, as there are probably less than 500 combat sigs on rotation. The population of PBLRD alone is now over 2000 characters. ie we alone cannot login and all seek combat sigs without being in every single one of them in every single region.

2 - I could clear a whole constellation of combat sigs in a single play session if I felt like it. You know this. I know this. That is a simple way of understanding how many players can roam and take content for income.

3 - The only way that the population of sigs can be increased is by high levels of military level being farmed up on systems, combined with entrapment arrays. ie in order to increase the sigs in my locality its pretty obvious rather than steal sigs from my neighbours - I go shoot anomolies in my system to maintain military level.

I also know what its like to be a roamer, and I know that you won't focus on trying to take content in systems that are military 5 with ongoing population of players. ie the life you lead is restricted to a finite number of people, and preferentially to systems with low military level, no entrapment array and lower spawn rates of sigs and periods with no other players logged into them.

Note that the total population of null is in the order of 100,000 characters and there is absolutely no way that they can all roam sigs all day. That a few hundred can is neither here nor there. more renters, increased condensing of CFC and N3 to less systems to have more renters, the more territorial bears become, and the harder it becomes to roam to take content. This is an ongoing process now, as renters are fueling the supercap war.

We've been over it before in the thread already.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#878 - 2013-12-18 04:12:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Eram Fidard wrote:
Confirming NPC Null Is Totally Empty And Safe And You Should Totally Believe Everything Pinky Says,.

*pssst in case you didn't notice I'm being facetious when I capitalize every word

You can definitely rent some nice blue donut space from PBLRD, as you can see if you do so, joining the tons of people who happily do so, you are a sucker.

Instead, you can be a winner and rent from Vince Draken, having exciting pvp as goons burn down your things and gank you.


EDIT: If you genuinely want some excitement, you can get some space in Vale.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#879 - 2013-12-18 04:20:41 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:

I didn't see any relevant points. Docking is not worth billions per system when 75% of null is within 10 - 15 jumps of NPC space.


Jumb bridges are free, there's no such thing as pos fuel cost reductions, and scraping the sites that others have left behind is less effort than undocking and warping to an anom. Sov grants itself, is never attacked, and ticks over all on it's own. Mining isn't even a thing, and everybody should be content to only fly herons.

What world do you live in?

A world where n3 has fulfilled its purpose for existing

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#880 - 2013-12-18 06:53:17 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You can pretend its not actual earnings if you like. I guess more income for me the less people are doing it.

As for getting ganked by pvp'rs... you need to choose the right space, been out in null, in many areas since I made this post and I think you'll find no killmails on me because I haven't died once.

If I go to an area that has people that like to camp, like Branch, they're a little overly protective of their plexes, I go somewhere else.


Hey, good for you if you're raking it in! I didn't even see what you were claiming your isk/hr was, or even if you made any such claims. I was just pointing out that a lot of incursion runners and null plexers like to make claims of X isk/hr when that figure is impossibly optimistic and doesn't factor in time spent traveling, hiding from pirates, running plexes with dud drops. The upside to L4s is that when I say I make X isk/hr, I make X isk/hr.

Fair enough. Well I make enough to fund my 10 accounts and have billions left over for bling fits. I would say I make about 20 billion a month. That's based on an average 400 million x 2 or 3 sites per day + I'm terribly addicted and usually spend all my weekends plexing / relic hunting etc.

The logistics is pretty much zero. I'll stay out in null for a week or two, store my loot in giant secures. Once I get enough loot I find a wormhole with a high sec entrance and covert ops it back to high. That usually takes 30 minutes or so since as you plex you save X7 wormholes so you always have one or two available for high sec runs.

Initially I was getting camped in but I decided to stay logged in 23/7 so anyone that camps me will usually find themselves extremely bored and give up. Now I have my SB wing with probe launchers, I can stick characters in an entire constellation, use ISBoxer to show all the scanners and locals on one client so I know instantly if a site spawns in any of those systems, can also see hostiles before they get close to my plexing system and if they do try to hunt me I bomb them :)

People don't like 80k bomb damage OO


Wait wait, let me get this straight. So now we're at 400mil per hour with 10 accounts logged in 23/7? So 40 mil per hour per account after having spent all day checking an entire constellation for new sigs? At least you're a little ahead of a high sec mining isboxer fleet. But wait, you're only counting the time or running the plex, not the time you spend staring at 10 screens doing nothing. At least the retriever fleet would keep sucking up rocks non stop.


How do you not realize how irrelevant what your doing is?

When we speak of an imbalance, we're not talking about a single multiboxing plexer camping an entire constellation downtime to downtime. Most gamers log in a couple hours a night, a few nights a week and have nowhere near the capacity for something like that.

We are speaking of the capacity of an entire region to support several thousand players who live there, throughout the month/day/time zone/systems. Meanwhile a single L4 agent can supply similar and safe income levels to several thousand people - simultaneously 23.5/7 out of a single station.

Just like how a single high sec system has more production slots than an entire null region.

If you want to compare your income to something, first stop using multiple accounts (or split the income accordingly). Then start comparing your numbers per character to something remotely relevant, like the income of a Tengu running 4/10 pre-Odyssey.